Quote:
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Originally Posted by TheFluff
Indeed... Nice to have you back, Zero1!
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Likewise, hope everyone had a good holiday. I know I did, being away from work and having some time to yourself is great, just a shame I was offline, I was planning to get so much work done.
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Originally Posted by LytHka
In any case, you're a week late for this discussion so I think we should just drop it.
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Oh I see, so it's like that is it?
I don't care, it's still relevant because it's something that happens all the time, but whatever. No point bitching over the internets.
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Originally Posted by DryFire
Yay the long posts are back. I think Zero1's the only person I've seen duoble post because he exceeded teh charector limit.
I believe mkv v2 has a lower overhead then mp4 and mkv v1. I can't find the thread i was looking for exactly so you'll have to settle for this:
http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/...omparison.html |
Yep, and I was lucky, I think the old limit was 20,000 or 25,000 characters, which would have meant a triple or quad post
Yes, MKV v2 does have a lower overhead, I saw that test a while a ago and was impressed.
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Originally Posted by ArchMageZeratuL
I've done a quick test, and remuxed a fansub mp4 into mkv:
[Arienai_-_Conclave]_Ginban_Kaleidoscope_-_07_[H264_-_AAC][4E67292C].mp4 144,508,229 bytes
[Arienai_-_Conclave]_Ginban_Kaleidoscope_-_07_[H264_-_AAC][4E67292C].mkv 144,472,592 bytes
Matroska is smaller in this case, but only 35 kB so... which is pretty irrelevant, if you ask me. I'd use those 35 kB with chapter information, though (even though I don't think it needs that much).
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Hmm, that's odd. I wonder if they muxed it with something other than MP4box (unlikely) or added meta info after. MP4box creates nice optimised files, but sometimes when I have tried to add some meta data like the name of the show or the year it was released the file gets bloated.
The so called MP4 of dewm was larger when muxed to MKV than MP4 also.
Not that I'm splitting hairs, I quite agree that 35KB is negligable here
Afterthought:
I wonder if Arienai muxed multiple streams to get VFR. MKVmerge would probably see this as a single MP4 file and treat it that way. I guess if this was the case it would get out of sync if you watched it, what with it having no timecodes file. That might explain the filesize difference, but it's just a shot in the dark.
Edit:
Hmm, interesting. I just muxed my H.264 + AAC test to MP4 and MKV.
MKV = 26.2 MB (27,501,181 bytes)
MP4 = 26.2 MB (27,504,638 bytes)
I can't explain it
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Originally Posted by DryFire
Personally I find mkv easier to use, and seeing as I can currently use more features with mkv then mp4, I see no reason to use mp4 atm.
Also has anyone used the new noise reduction filter in x264?
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Yes, MKVmerge is stupidly easy to use, but I still don't mind mp4box, It's quite easy too.
As for the NR reduction filter, sounds like it will do a similar job to FFT3Dfilter? I don't know much about noise reduction algos though
Also, good post Quarkboy
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Originally Posted by iluid
MP4 supports chapters just fine; that's not an advantage of mkv afaik. MKV is of course nice and supports more stuff, but mp4 has a greater chance of 'out of the box' support in the future, so I prefer it since TV cap fansubs just don't need the extras of mkv.
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That's fair comment, although at the time I started using x264 (something like rev 200) there wasn't an option for MKV, it was MP4 or AVI, so I chose the lesser of two evils which was MP4 which of course meant I avoided VFW limitations and at the same time all the other associated hacks.
MKV was added in time, and since I had become used to using H.264 + AAC with MP4box, I wasn't inclined to change. Aside from not wanting to change out of lazyness, as you say although MKV has great features, my usage would only use the basic ones like H.264, AAC or Vorbis and chapters support, all of which MP4 already offer, bar true Vorbis support. You are supposed to be able to mux Vorbis (via private stream?) but that would create a non spec compliant file, and if you are going to do that anyway, you might as well use MKV because at least it will be supported in some way.
There is also a slight hope of "out of the box playback" you mentioned too.
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Originally Posted by SSS
Hmm, i never use CBR, so i have no experience how to tweak VBV maxrate or other options, and AFAIK CRB only useful when streaming(?).
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Yes, CBR is useless in most situations bar streaming and live capture. Even so for live capture you could just use --crf or --qp I guess and get a more consistant result.
CBR is next to useless in my opinion other than web streaming, or situations where it is impossible to use 2 pass encoding.
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Originally Posted by SSS
You looks pro with video processing area
Actually i didnt do much expreriment with chroma qp offset options,
but according to my test, chroma qp off set increase global psnr alot from -12 to 12, but i havent compare them visually
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Lol, thanks for the compliment, but I have to be modest because there are much better encoders than myself out there
Now this is funny. As you might have gathered I've been offline for about a month, so I've been trying stuff whilst offline. First it appears we found out about x264 storing settings in the bitstream by viewing with a hex editor at the same time, and now the chroma offset tests. Well a while back I did some tests, not as large a range as yours but I'll post the results.
Code:
--------------------
Chroma QP offset = 0
--------------------
avis [info]: 704x480 @ 23.98 fps (1431 frames)
x264 [info]: using cpu capabilities MMX MMXEXT SSE SSE2 3DNow!
x264 [info]: slice I:49 Avg QP:22.39 size: 17071 PSNR Mean Y:44.42 U:48.55
V:48.77 Avg:45.34 Global:44.72
x264 [info]: slice P:995 Avg QP:23.38 size: 9498 PSNR Mean Y:43.27 U:46.85
V:46.69 Avg:44.08 Global:43.52
x264 [info]: slice B:387 Avg QP:24.87 size: 3367 PSNR Mean Y:43.07 U:46.15
V:46.49 Avg:43.85 Global:43.40
x264 [info]: mb I I16..4: 28.5% 49.1% 22.3%
x264 [info]: mb P I16..4: 8.1% 14.3% 6.1% P16..4: 33.6% 8.2% 3.9% 0.3% 0
.2% skip:25.3%
x264 [info]: mb B I16..4: 2.4% 3.6% 1.0% B16..8: 35.6% 1.7% 2.1% direct:
2.8% skip:50.7%
x264 [info]: final ratefactor: 20.89
x264 [info]: 8x8 transform intra:50.1% inter:46.0%
x264 [info]: ref P 77.7% 12.4% 5.0% 2.1% 1.5% 1.4%
x264 [info]: ref B 76.8% 12.5% 4.8% 2.3% 1.8% 1.7%
x264 [info]: PSNR Mean Y:43.256 U:46.718 V:46.710 Avg:44.060 Global:43.523 kb/s:
1553.48
encoded 1431 frames, 3.22 fps, 1554.17 kb/s
--------------------
Chroma QP offset = 2
--------------------
avis [info]: 704x480 @ 23.98 fps (1431 frames)
x264 [info]: using cpu capabilities MMX MMXEXT SSE SSE2 3DNow!
x264 [info]: slice I:48 Avg QP:22.40 size: 16380 PSNR Mean Y:44.48 U:47.76
V:47.90 Avg:45.23 Global:44.60
x264 [info]: slice P:996 Avg QP:23.20 size: 9518 PSNR Mean Y:43.36 U:46.15
V:45.93 Avg:43.99 Global:43.47
x264 [info]: slice B:387 Avg QP:24.69 size: 3377 PSNR Mean Y:43.12 U:45.42
V:45.74 Avg:43.73 Global:43.32
x264 [info]: mb I I16..4: 28.5% 49.3% 22.2%
x264 [info]: mb P I16..4: 8.1% 14.7% 6.3% P16..4: 32.4% 8.3% 4.0% 0.3% 0
.2% skip:25.7%
x264 [info]: mb B I16..4: 2.3% 3.6% 1.0% B16..8: 35.1% 1.8% 2.2% direct:
2.4% skip:51.5%
x264 [info]: final ratefactor: 20.69
x264 [info]: 8x8 transform intra:50.3% inter:46.2%
x264 [info]: ref P 77.1% 12.9% 5.1% 2.1% 1.5% 1.4%
x264 [info]: ref B 76.9% 12.6% 4.8% 2.2% 1.7% 1.8%
x264 [info]: PSNR Mean Y:43.331 U:46.006 V:45.945 Avg:43.964 Global:43.466 kb/s:
1551.25
encoded 1431 frames, 3.25 fps, 1551.97 kb/s
--------------------
Chroma QP offset = 4
--------------------
avis [info]: 704x480 @ 23.98 fps (1431 frames)
x264 [info]: using cpu capabilities MMX MMXEXT SSE SSE2 3DNow!
x264 [info]: slice I:48 Avg QP:22.31 size: 16072 PSNR Mean Y:44.52 U:46.74
V:46.75 Avg:45.03 Global:44.45
x264 [info]: slice P:996 Avg QP:23.06 size: 9526 PSNR Mean Y:43.42 U:45.39
V:45.09 Avg:43.85 Global:43.38
x264 [info]: slice B:387 Avg QP:24.61 size: 3366 PSNR Mean Y:43.15 U:44.64
V:44.88 Avg:43.55 Global:43.18
x264 [info]: mb I I16..4: 28.8% 49.0% 22.3%
x264 [info]: mb P I16..4: 8.0% 14.9% 6.4% P16..4: 31.7% 8.4% 4.1% 0.3% 0
.2% skip:26.1%
x264 [info]: mb B I16..4: 2.3% 3.7% 1.0% B16..8: 35.0% 1.8% 2.2% direct:
2.1% skip:52.0%
x264 [info]: final ratefactor: 20.53
x264 [info]: 8x8 transform intra:50.5% inter:46.4%
x264 [info]: ref P 76.8% 13.0% 5.1% 2.2% 1.5% 1.4%
x264 [info]: ref B 77.1% 12.2% 4.9% 2.3% 1.9% 1.8%
x264 [info]: PSNR Mean Y:43.385 U:45.231 V:45.087 Avg:43.805 Global:43.359 kb/s:
1549.80
encoded 1431 frames, 3.59 fps, 1550.51 kb/s
--------------------
Chroma QP offset = 6
--------------------
avis [info]: 704x480 @ 23.98 fps (1431 frames)
x264 [info]: using cpu capabilities MMX MMXEXT SSE SSE2 3DNow!
x264 [info]: slice I:48 Avg QP:22.27 size: 15952 PSNR Mean Y:44.49 U:45.84
V:46.01 Avg:44.81 Global:44.23
x264 [info]: slice P:996 Avg QP:22.99 size: 9517 PSNR Mean Y:43.46 U:44.73
V:44.46 Avg:43.70 Global:43.26
x264 [info]: slice B:387 Avg QP:24.55 size: 3376 PSNR Mean Y:43.18 U:44.01
V:44.26 Avg:43.39 Global:43.05
x264 [info]: mb I I16..4: 28.4% 48.9% 22.6%
x264 [info]: mb P I16..4: 8.1% 15.1% 6.5% P16..4: 31.1% 8.4% 4.2% 0.3% 0
.2% skip:26.1%
x264 [info]: mb B I16..4: 2.2% 3.7% 1.1% B16..8: 34.9% 1.8% 2.3% direct:
2.0% skip:52.0%
x264 [info]: final ratefactor: 20.44
x264 [info]: 8x8 transform intra:50.8% inter:46.3%
x264 [info]: ref P 76.4% 13.3% 5.2% 2.2% 1.5% 1.4%
x264 [info]: ref B 76.8% 12.5% 4.8% 2.2% 1.9% 1.7%
x264 [info]: PSNR Mean Y:43.420 U:44.569 V:44.459 Avg:43.653 Global:43.233 kb/s:
1548.27
encoded 1431 frames, 3.33 fps, 1548.96 kb/s
--------------------
Chroma QP offset = 8
--------------------
avis [info]: 704x480 @ 23.98 fps (1431 frames)
x264 [info]: using cpu capabilities MMX MMXEXT SSE SSE2 3DNow!
x264 [info]: slice I:47 Avg QP:22.26 size: 15989 PSNR Mean Y:44.26 U:45.29
V:45.32 Avg:44.51 Global:44.04
x264 [info]: slice P:997 Avg QP:22.92 size: 9521 PSNR Mean Y:43.50 U:44.20
V:43.97 Avg:43.57 Global:43.15
x264 [info]: slice B:387 Avg QP:24.51 size: 3353 PSNR Mean Y:43.19 U:43.49
V:43.75 Avg:43.24 Global:42.92
x264 [info]: mb I I16..4: 28.3% 48.9% 22.9%
x264 [info]: mb P I16..4: 8.0% 15.3% 6.5% P16..4: 30.8% 8.5% 4.3% 0.3% 0
.2% skip:26.2%
x264 [info]: mb B I16..4: 2.2% 3.6% 1.0% B16..8: 34.8% 1.8% 2.3% direct:
1.9% skip:52.3%
x264 [info]: final ratefactor: 20.37
x264 [info]: 8x8 transform intra:51.1% inter:46.4%
x264 [info]: ref P 76.4% 13.2% 5.1% 2.2% 1.5% 1.4%
x264 [info]: ref B 76.9% 12.5% 4.8% 2.3% 1.9% 1.7%
x264 [info]: PSNR Mean Y:43.440 U:44.045 V:43.956 Avg:43.515 Global:43.111 kb/s:
1547.04
encoded 1431 frames, 3.76 fps, 1547.74 kb/s
If we take the two extremes of an offset of 0 and 8 and check the results.
CQ offset 0 = x264 [info]: PSNR Mean Y:43.256 U:46.718 V:46.710
CQ offset 8 = x264 [info]: PSNR Mean Y:43.440 U:44.045 V:43.956
Here you see that you have lowered the PSNR of the U plane by 2.673db and lowered the V plane by 2.754db, and it has only increased the Y plane by 0.184db
In my opinion, that is not a worthwhile sacrifice, no matter how important the Y plane is. The quality of the video in this instance is fair, but it's more a case of pointing out the tradeoff rather than actual quality here.
Standard disclaimer: Some people don't like PSNR as a measurement and don't trust it, but it's all I have, so don't complain
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DryFire
Yes, well.. I can't seem do delete my own threads. To make up for this I'll add that akupenguin (akupenguin = pengvado right?) suggested values from 100 to 1000.
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Yep, as you guessed, akupenguin is pengvado. And yeah, it's a pretty safe assumption that people here are Doom9 goers, though I should really go there more often.