[Yamiken]

Originally Posted by azul120

Remember her introductory episodes, where she conquers and establishes Area 18, and massacres Saitama Ghetto, on top of already having the nickname Witch of Britannia? Pretty sure she's committed plenty of atrocities to last a lifetime or two. And losing Euphie or not doing anything evil during R2 doesn't go anywhere near making up for it, nor does she atone or repent for it.

"Witch of Britannia" could just as easily refer to her martial and strategic prowess as a propensity for atrocity. I don't take the conquering of Area 18 as particularly bad; alright, it's furthering Britannia's imperialist agenda, which is evil, but there's no evidence she, say, committed any particular war crimes during it; the only people we see her killing are enemy combatants. As for the loss of Euphemia, that's pretty much a fate worse than death for someone like her.

All that said, I'm not saying she got her just desserts, I'm just saying I don't see her as as much of a Karma Houdini as Ohgi and Villetta. Still, maybe I should; I'm the one arguing that the Zero Requiem wasn't the epitome of evils, after all, and particularly if you put it all down to Lelouch's grief and desperation, Ohgi and Villetta are as responsible for that as anyone else.

Originally Posted by azul120

I stated in the other thread that Lelouch would have had plenty more allies on his side of Rounds level or higher (Kallen, Xing-ke) in addition to an overall more capable force in the Black Knights. You may remember his side was getting jobbed so badly he had to detonate Mt. Fuji. It was everything else on top of that that can be inferred from his inevitable reputation as Demon Emperor that would seal it.

His reputation as the Demon Emperor was not, I thought, entirely based on sheer wanton cruelty (though undeniably a lot of blood was shed), but also on the hugely oppressive nature of his regime in that he severely curtailed the freedoms of his citizens. This would've been arguably worse in the long term, of course, and thus garnered him the reputation it did, but given that it was only for two or three months, it seems a bearable price to pay for world peace (even if the peace doesn't last forever).

Originally Posted by azul120

Lelouch was still abiding within the structure of the Empire when he called out his father. It was after the invasion of Japan that he pretty much discarded the idea of changing Brittania from within for good.

Suzaku was the opposite, a rebellious child who freaked out after his big stunt, killing his father to stop his nation from fighting to the death, ended with Japan's occupation, and his lack of punishment. It was because of that that he tried working within the system in hopes of peaceful change, though with a secret death wish.

He was, yes, but my point was that it was demonstrative of his evolving character. As I said, his subsequent experiences in Japan are what truly hardened him. Lelouch, that is. I don't disagree with you on Suzaku, though I also don't see how it's hugely relevant to this debate.

Originally Posted by azul120

He could make a miraculous return as Zero himself as agent and figurehead of justice instead of leaving it for Suzaku, who is ill-equipped for the job. Besides, we never got to see what he might be capable of in peacetime, solely because he got his start via the battlefield.

We never got to see him during peace time, no, but that cuts against you as much as against me. My point is that his character is ill-suited to peace time, so I think the most likely case would be that he made a comparatively lousy leader.

Originally Posted by azul120

Again, Suzaku is wrong for the job of Zero. And Schneizel could theoretically break free of Lelouch's geass by some loophole.

Suzaku would be wrong for the job of Zero during war time. Peace time is another matter. Zero's purpose after the Zero Requiem is to be a symbol of hope, and to help control any conflicts that might, despite everything, arise - something that Suzaku, as a soldier, IS suited to. And someone who abides unfailingly by process (well, Suzaku developed a little beyond that by the end, but still) is of far more worth when the processes in place are pretty good, and when it's most important to be setting a good example.

As for Schneizel breaking free of the Geass, now you're just grasping at straws. Lelouch's Geass is absolute; the series has made that quite plain. I suppose if you go by my theory that Code-bearers can negate Geass then Schneizel might, theoretically, be able to break free... but you've made it pretty plain you disagree with me on that. So I don't see how Schneizel could break free. And who knows, even if he did, would he necessarily cause trouble? I guess it depends on whether you see him as a well-intentioned extremist or as something unalike, such as a megalomaniac or a bored genius, but I don't honestly believe he'd jeopardise the peace his half-brother created and his other remaining half-siblings (well, Nunnally at the very least) are maintaining, just of the evulz. But, I guess if you think he would, and you think that Code-bearers can negate Geass, then that is a flaw in the plan. However, as far as the two of us are concerned, that goes against your assumptions about the universe.

Originally Posted by azul120

Consider this for a moment: Lelouch had made himself to be the worst person in the world in that short time. Worse than Emperor Charles, for instance, who was known for being a darwinist. What we do know is that Lelouch brainwashed his troops and made them wear full face masks into combat, uses them as meat shields, assassinated people for dissenting against him (CC lampshades this in a picture drama), and blows up Mt. Fuji, likely causing a ton of damage over Japan. And by that time, if you'll remember, the Black Knights rivaled if not exceeded Britannia. Lelouch actually made it harder on himself by opposing everyone else unilaterally, if you'll remember, which should be enough to put a wrench in the theory of it being less bloody. He could have faced Schneizel WITH the assistance of everyone else instead of just Suzaku, Jeremiah and a brigade of mooks. Worse, he waited a whole month and allowed Schneizel to come out of hiding with Damocles instead of at least trying to find him beforehand.

Yes, he assassinated people who disagreed with him. That created a state of fear. It's not the same as massacring entire populations, which I've yet to see evidence that he did. As I began to say above, I believe that a lot of the Demon Emperor Lelouch's image was just that - image, that and a state of fear that over a lifetime would be heinous, but over a few months can be justified given the outcome. Yes, he committed some atrocities. But over the greater period of time, I am not convinced that these atrocities spilled more blood than would have otherwise been spilt by himself and others had he taken any other route. Again: if you think there is a route he could've taken for which that statement is wrong, then state it. But not the 'Lelouch rules the world' route, because I've already said why I don't believe that was a viable option... particularly not when he was as grief-stricken as he was. Do you really want someone suicidal ruling the world? Alright, he may have gotten over that desire, but still. I don't think it would've made for good governance. If Zero Requiem was really as horrible as you claim, then it doesn't speak well for Lelouch's continuing good judgement that he judged it the least blood-stained path. So either Zero Requiem wasn't as bad as you're making out, or Lelouch is an idiot who shouldn't be ruling the world, or even just the portion of it controlled by Britannia.

As for how he persecuted the war against Schneizel: if he'd retained the Black Knights, they would have had to go down with him. Indeed, that's his essential reason for driving all of them away: he knows that anyone who sides with him will be ruined by it. Admittedly, Lloyd, Cécile and Nina were able to get away with it by claiming they'd been coerced, but they're squishy scientists; how could someone like Kallen have claimed the same thing (for that matter, on her part, would she even have wanted to)? How could an entire organisation have claimed it? As it is, the people who went down with Lelouch were: Suzaku (by dying to the world and becoming Zero), who was also accepting punishment, C.C., who's used to being a ghost anyway, Jeremiah, whose only purpose in life was to serve Lelouch loyally and was honoured to play that part through to the end no matter what the consequences, and all those who died in the conflict (regrettable but necessary sacrifices). Even the surviving soldiers of the Britannian army have the excuse that he brainwashed them (exactly how this would be handled is a little uncertain, particularly with regards as to whether the truth of the Geass would be revealed or not, but when every single surviving soldier in the Britannian army starts complaining about a massive blank during the entire war, it'd be a little hard to put down to some elaborate ruse that all of them have spontaneously concocted. Doubtless Lloyd and co., the brainy scientists, would come out with some excuse for the world). That's it.

With regards to waiting for Schneizel to come out of the woodwork, what do you propose he have done instead? Wasted resources fruitlessly pursuing him? For fruitless it would've been; Schneizel's clever enough to not be found when he doesn't want to be. No, Lelouch knew Schneizel would have to come after him eventually, so he waited. That's just strategy.

Originally Posted by azul120

Perhaps, but it's perfectly justifiable to point out the failings of one's chosen strategy, regardless of the reasons behind them. The problem here is that the process and outcome are overly glorified in the narrative in spite of various outstanding issues.

Well, I've given my reasons for disagreeing with you on that latter part... there's no more I can state here. As for the former, yes, I agree. But there's also nothing wrong with pointing out the failings of the reasoning behind the judgement of those failings in strategy.

Originally Posted by azul120

It was an ass pull, unfortunately. Especially considering the leading conditions, and the happy endings undeservedly given to some of the other characters instead.

I don't believe it was an arse-pull, certainly not to the degree you do. But let's just say it was somewhat unlikely that everything did turn out as neatly as it did, which I might be prepared to grant you even if I don't believe that the overall strategy was as flawed as you're making out. Does that discredit it as an ending? No, because it's message is one of hope. Hope is always a little unrealistic; that's in its definition. So in this case, a hopeful ending is going to paint things a little brighter than they perhaps are, or are most likely to be. But for me? That's fine. I like it all the same. Now, maybe you'd prefer a more cynical ending. That's also fine; that's your preference, your taste, and I'd be a hypocrite if I tried to change that. But I believe that a hopeful ending is more in suiting with Code Geass' bright, fabulous tone, for reasons I think I've explained. So that's why I like the ending whatever the case.