[Falkor]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I will give you a point about this. However, the problem wasn't exactly that "he understands her", the problem is how he can withstand. This is where I actually mentioned the "patience of saint". If he didn't understand her, it wouldn't be patience, it would be absolute masochism or foolishness. That's why I gived credits for him, but not the author.
and no, they are NOT in equal grounds. Ryuji is quite honest and always tell things that might go against him. OTOH, Taiga does NOT returning the favors at all. Her "understanding" and "weak" phases are absolutely not representative of equal grounds considering how she is in tsun 90% of the time, which means: abuse.

I want to mention first that this is only my interpretation. The equal ground is the underlying notion that they can depend on each other when the time comes (especially in Taiga’s case), or become able to have a conversation/argument/belittlement with no ill feelings left afterwards.

You are discarding what Taiga is so flustered about with her confession to kitamura. She was able to define clearly her feelings for Kitamura, yet, she is unable to pin point Ryuji's in her "ranking".

And I thought she was trying to acknowledge Ryuji’s great involvement in her life. Her inexperience/innocence certainly plays a role in this situation as well. One, she fails to realize that all this inarticulate speech is starting to lead everything into the wrong direction; and two, it is definitely not the right moment for such “appreciative gesture.” That mistake cost her dearly in the end, so I guess she really wanted to say it no matter what—in one futile attempt to clear things up, or make it even messier.

Honestly, while it isn't clear, I certainly doubt their relationship will remain platonic at this rate.

The relationship will remain platonic as long as nothing extraordinary happens to those two in order to change their minds.

Considering Taiga rough and strong demeanor against Ryuji despite she barely meet him at the start, it pretty much proves that she would go panzer with any stranger breaching a certain point of her intimate self. However, she "manages" to be completely dazed at her curcial part of her confession despite she could obviously ignore completely Ryuji's topic during that. Worse, she is even sidetracking her love demonstration with her relationship/feelings for Ryuji. I would not call that "normal friendship".

It’s not a normal friendship per se, but not quite as romantic either. First of all, remember that Taiga is not supposed to be very confident/secure when it comes to the person she loves—failing multiple times to remain quiet and unaltered, and falling victim of her own embarrassment. And this was building up throughout the day just before the confession. As part of Taiga’s character, it’s somewhat understandable to lose control of her words because her romantic aspiration was in front of her. Now, why mentioning Ryuji out of all her options? Probably the first thing that came to her mind and the rest that happened was an aftermath of her nervousness—and perhaps realization. Well, it’s up to speculation in the end.

The relationship certainly transcends that of a normal label. They basically live together, do shopping together, and eat together on the same table. But they haven’t developed any form of romantic feeling for each other, because their minds are still set on their respective crush. As I mentioned before, it’s sort of special in itself; no matter how much Taiga seems to “neglect” Ryuji, he and she will still have that close underlying bond.

You are taking my words way too much on the first degree. You don't need to beg for mercy or such to prove there is a problem. Ryuji got his life literally invaded by taiga, and he has no means nor the character to repell her. Of course, considering his character background, it would be clearly out of character if he kicks her out. However, I hardly believe Ryuji is liking the rough treatment.

I was trying to be sarcastic… oh well

All depends on whether Ryuji really wants to repel Taiga, or leave her completely alone for that matter—he really can’t due this to his character/personality. It crossed my mind more than once, what would have happened if Ryuji never decided to care of her, or what would have occurred if he didn’t vow to stay with her on “equal grounds”—this latter meaning to continue his involvement in her life? Would have Taiga survived on her own? (You would probably say that she doesn’t deserve to live) I think Taiga basically owes her life to Ryuji, even though she wouldn’t completely admit it in front of him.

I doubt a normal person would have enjoyed a treatment similar to Taiga’s, but it’s Ryuji the one we are talking about. I think it’s somewhat balanced, the same way life is. He probably doesn’t enjoy those “little belittlements,” even though they might not be ill intended, but he certainly enjoys the small payoff of taking care of her, or believing that he is getting closer to Minorin, or that Taiga is not feeling alone by doing this.

And honestly, I absolutely have hard time to swallow that he would be okay to be forced to postpone his attempts with Minori, just because Miss tiger WANTS her happiness before her servant.

Ryuji hasn’t forsaken his romantic aspiration altogether. There is more than one reason why he might want to help Taiga first. His lack of confidence is still an obstacle, which could have been caused by his inability at social interaction. And that’s without including the fact that Minorin has already misunderstood them in the past, creating an even thicker wall between the two. So helping Taiga might be a bit easier for him.

I never said it would be never happen. However, he has nothing to gain here. of course, like I said before, he is the type of character that doesn't need reason to help someone. That said, the problem here is that he would have much less trouble without Taiga.
At the very least, taiga force situations that give some possibility for Ryuji. However, these are circumstances, absolutely not Taiga's own will.

His friendship with Taiga is a little step forward, rather than backwards. I think he seems a bit closer to Minorin than he was before befriending the tiger. But now that he is friends with her, things slightly change. Whether that change is favorable or not, or whether he would have less trouble without her, I don’t think there exists one argument/condition alone to explain the whole situation. For one, Ryuji’s lack of social interaction could have played a role as well. Anyhow, I believe that if any spark/event were to “seriously” develop between Ryuji and Minorin, it would have to go through Taiga, because it will indeed involve her as her friend.

The problem isn't the fact she isn't thankful. The problem is that she isn't able to do that despite how grand Ryuji's efforts are. I can accept tsundere have difficult time to play the honesty card here and there. But for crying out lourd: he basically pull her out of her "misery" routine life, helping her and withstanding her erratic moodswing.
Obviously, Ryuji KNOWS she is most likely thankful, but there is a huge and great difference in "knowing someone is thankful to you" and "hearing thanks from the said person".

Rare cases are those where you actually hear a “thank you” coming out of a tsundere’s mouth—it’s somewhat expected not to hear one in a long time, even though they should show some appreciation in a sincere way.

Anyhow, I’m not trying to convince you that Taiga has a “lame excuse” for not doing so, only that it’s not really out of character. What I’m about to say it’s probably absurd, but hopefully it can give a better understanding of this situation. Strictly speaking, people—especially kids—won’t say “thank you” as long as nobody teaches them to do so properly—and there’s little doubt that Taiga’s behavior can be easily compared to that of a brat. Now, given Taiga’s upbringing it should not be a surprise that she doesn’t know or is willing to “say thanks”—we are talking about the same person who wouldn’t yield to her parents.

In the end, I consider this as one of those reasons why you cannot stomach Taiga’s personality/behavior—with especial regards to her tsun side.

Taiga has a lot to thank Ryuji for, and she tried somehow, but in a very subtle and indirect way in my opinion.

I cannot exactly imagine how it would be "playful". And if you ask my opinion, if she does that because it is playful, that is even more disgusting. That is plain sadism.

By playful I meant “not ill intended.”

I never said Ryuji didn't know much about her. But like I said, the situations are the problems which go on contrast with Ryuji's ability to bear things. The problem isn't the character Ryuji, but how the author force things on Ryuji, through Taiga's abuse.
We will probably know once Ryuji hits his limits. At least that’s the only thing I can say to this never ending point.
Actually, I cannot see any of them better than the other.
Louise is basically the very jealous and uncomfortable tsundere that have the horrible habit to be very dishonest and "deviant" in her treatments.
Taiga is "more honest", but she is worse in some way as she doesn't have a real justification in her abuses. Why does she need to act though for her supporter instead of anyone around her? Why does she have to act like that despite the person obviously doesn't have ill motives about her weak side etc?

Human behavior is a complex thing. Most people wear a façade to the outside world, and only show their true colors once they are hanging out with their closest friends. Taiga is no exception, because she—as Kitamura pointed out—has more expressions when she is around Ryuji—that’s in part her true color, I guess. But it just so happens that she would prefer to be selfish no matter what—even at the cost of Ryuji’s “kindness.” She can’t help doing this; it’s part of her character after all. Remember that’s the way she has been introduced in the manga—selfish and bossy, especially towards Ryuji—and she is not the type that would change 180 degrees so easily—not after 10 chapters of the manga, and not when she still has her eyes set on Kitamura. Now, isn’t her “weak side” really her true self? Yes, in part, and this has been shown to Ryuji who knows about this—the times she has been falling on the ground, or the very fact that they both share the feeling of being misunderstood. The problem lies in Taiga who would not allow him to find a single point of weakness in her—even though he is already aware of it.

And honestly, instead of trying to get Minori's heart, he swore to stay at Taiga's side, despite she ordered him not to, and despite it would mean more abuse or whatnot. You can say some friendship can be "as strong as love", but the manga is so roundabout of their feelings that it leave too much room for romance between then.

He is kind-hearted…

His decision is based in great part to the fact that he knows Taiga more than anybody else, even more than Minorin. As I said before, given Ryuji’s character and the events surrounding Taiga’s frustrating ordeal, he wanted to stand with the girl he felt needed his help the most—not necessarily with a romantic plan in mind.

I sort of understand your point there; it doesn’t quite make sense to leave aside the girl you love and swear “on equal grounds” to a person with such a character “like hers.” I think, within the parameters of Ryuji’s personality/character, that the Minorin’s business could wait (it’s not like somebody was already advancing behind his back) in order to cheer up/help Taiga. An act of rashness, perhaps; but take into account that given Taiga’s frustration after the utterly failed attempt and her tendency to bear difficult things on her own (like trying to fix the misunderstandings for him), she wouldn’t have gotten out of the hole without his help—that’s probably what he thought in my humble opinion.

Again, I'm astonished with "playful". Does she look like enjoying or going malicious and "jokingly" go panzer against Ryuji?
I honestly can imagine that people can be a bit bossy or "nasty" in their jokes, but I would certainly not consider "playful" in a "non human treatment". That is basically impossible. Sure both are laughing about these... not.

Yes, she does… you should ask some people around
That blush on the last page of chapter 11 says everything.

They are actually laughing—or she is actually laughing—just below the blush…

While I use phrases like “playful belittlement” and “appreciative gesture,” you go as far as using “non human treatment,” “abuse,” “rag,” “disgusting” “sadism” and other words of equivalent/similar connotation. I wonder which one of us is telling the truth... there should be a middle ground somewhere.

I'm sorry, but I totally disagree with you here: I honestly cannot see how the belittlement is playful. it might be "funny" for the readers for the slapstick, but I really have issue of how it can be considered as laughing matter for actual characters.

When there exists a close friendship, everything is forgiven…
and you should notice that he doesn’t take the belittlements with rancor.
and don’t forget that they are not taking their “arguments” seriously, either.

That is actually the reason why I pointed her inability to consider her surrounding. "Me, me, ME FIRST!". Okay, most people are obviously selfish (absolute selflessness is extremely difficult to imagine with human), but when you hereby focus in detriment of others, to the point of imposing yourself, this is not acceptable.
Everyone has their granted right to be happy, but if it requiring the opposite for others or stalling others' happiness, that is certainly a big problem here.

We should ask the person himself… oh yeah, his ability to bear things.

Focusing in the detriment of other… it sounds like Taiga is trying to make the life of “others” miserable—especially Ryuji’s… I’m still sort of trying to understand the extent/context of your words…

Is really “imposing” the worst thing that could have happened to Ryuji’s life, or the worst thing that Taiga could do?

Strictly speaking, only Taiga is giving me a lot of troubles to "look forwards" to the anime version of it. And my reasoning for this is: in anime adaptation, it "should" have a range of faithfulness (until you are going nutso like in Negima).
I would see her behaviour as OOC as well if she starts to go fluffy lovey out of nowhere. As far as I used as argument:
1) I have hard time to stand Taiga's behaviour because of the tsun
2) Ryuji's situation is hardly as "possible" due of the circumstances that "look forced to me".

Point 1 is a lost cause…
With point 2 I still have my hopes.

There are two things I’m trying to argue here:

Now, for my "enjoyement" part, I would say that I would rather expect further development for Taiga, toning down her wild behaviour for quite a while, and "subtly" helping Ryuji times to times. I don't expect love or direct helping action. In a certain way, her "rash reaction" in classroom in order to make the misunderstanding vanish was nice. That part + the confession were actually the good parts I saw in Taiga, but the almighty page 24 of chapter 11 just gave me a very very sour aftertaste.

I think you missed Taiga’s blush on the next page because of that…

At any rate, it will go in circle over and over, so there isn't much possibility to see a "compromise" in our discussion. I certainly don't feel it is a matter of facts or whatnot, but perspective and opinions, so there is no need to "persuade" any side anyway. of course, it was pretty much "entertaining" and interesting to see how a story can stirr drastic different views
That said, I will obviously try to "continue" the manga and perhaps trying the anime with a blank slate in mind, though I cannot expect much "patience" if there is such statu quo going on for dozens of chapters...

I will suggest reading the novel, since I’m not very enthusiastic about the anime either. Although the manga and the novel are pretty much the same, I think you can get a better feeling/understanding of what’s going on (plus reading it along the manga it’s a nice experience in my opinion).


You are absolutely sure that Ryuji is not winning anything in his relationship with Taiga. I obviously disagree with that statement, but I can kinda see where it’s coming from. Now, the question would be, is Ryuji losing anything in his relationship with Taiga? At least he is not losing money since the food comes from Taiga’s wallet as well. However, Ryuji hasn’t shown any sign of regret, even though all the circumstances may have pointed otherwise. The reason being is that he hasn’t lost anything, nothing of importance. I would even go as far as saying that he is somewhat happy—regardless of Taiga’s selfish behavior—because helping somebody as useless and lonely as Taiga gives him satisfaction.

The other point I was trying to argue was the supposedly romantic premise between Ryuji and Taiga, which I believe there are no strong hints for this to happen—as long as the original premise is not completely broken. But I agree with the possibility, at least. However, the other problem was your assumption that the readers should root for it—not necessarily implying that they should root for the original romantic aspirations instead. If I could summarize Toradora, I would say that the label of romantic comedy applies in its entirety, but it loosely follows the general trend—that is, concentrating on a romance occurring strictly speaking “within” the main couple—but this is not happening here as of now. Though there exists the possibility.


In the end, the only thing I could see from your argument is your hate for Taiga’s character (which is a good thing, given that hate is a form of love ). I agree with you in the sense that this is the kind of argument with no possible end in sight, but I’m very obstinate myself.