[Haesslich]

Originally Posted by Urei

The Mass Produced VF-19F was an upgrade to the original YF-19. It featured a much more powerfull engines and less mass thus the WtT ratio was much highter. It was also redesigned for the avionics to maximize performance in the space envioroment. It featured much more optional armaments and packs as well as another base version - S type and P Type. VF-19F specs are higher even as a mass production unit then YF-19, not to mention the VF-19S which was a much better unit then the Basara's Red Excalibur.

From what I recall, the engines got boosted as you said (67500 kg versus 72500kg), but the prototype had several systems which were not present with the mass-produced VF-19F: the rear-firing laser turret that was the head isn't listed on the VF-19's specifications, and it had two internal pallets which could carry two micromissile clusters, 2x24 micromissile launchers, or four missiles) and a chaff dispenser which don't appear on the specifications for the VF-19's that appear in Macross 7.

What it did offer was the super pack that FAST pack and the later Spiritia pod. Oh, and the ability to mount Sound Booster units and speaker pods. The Fire Valkyrie also had its g-limiters set to a higher tolerance (+39g versus the +35.5 for the VF-19F/S) and seemed to use an older engine and was about 150 kg lighter than the other configurations... which were themselves 200kg lighter than the prototype. Otherwise the specs were the same or slightly downgraded (weapons loadout), with the exception of more thrust due to newer engines and the lighter weight.

Originally Posted by Urei

Well, VF-17 was only a second line fighter.

Well, in Macross 7 the VF-17 was a lesser design compared to VF-19 or VF-22. It was cheaper and it's performance was not on par with the 'hero' units. As I said, it served in UN Spacy as a second line fighter. Aside from a Super Pack and an commander S version it didn't receive any modifications so VF-19 was better at handling different missions.

About VF-25. It really can't be compared to the 17 or whatever 19/22 version. It's a class of it's own with those ultra high specs. I agree though, the Messiah has some really deadly eq configurations. We can argue about it's origin though. A Naked VF-25 does not feature any serious armaments. All of it's offensive power comes from the Packs. It's only reasonable to assume that VF-25 is a unit that is meant to fly with the packs not as the previous models which could do semi-well on their own.

I'd say that's a really huge step forward in the VF designs. The unit can be shaped like a low level mmorpg player into anything the user wants and the reconfigured almost instantly into something else.

... it was such a 'second line' fighter that the elite of Macross 7's squadrons, Diamond Force, was using it. The only reason it was becoming 'second line' as far as elites were concerned was because the VF-19 and VF-22 had swung into full production at that point and were replacing it. Up to that stage, it was considered a top-line fighter, especially due to its stealth capabilities. Its main Achilles heel was, as I noted, the fact it performed poorly in atmosphere compared to previous planes due to an less aerodynamic shape.

As discussed in Macross 7, the VF-19 wasn't all that common due to the needs it had for a pilot, and it also was somewhat expensive... while regular 'elites' like Diamond Force got the VF-17; normal pilots flew the VF-11B/C planes. The VF-17 was considered a top-line plane up until the VF-19 came out as a mass-production unit, which itself was eclipsed by the VF-22 which carried an extra energy cannon, a lot of micro-missiles, and the ability to pull +60G's compared to the VF-19's +35G limit... much less the VF-17. But the VF-17 was hardly a 'second line' fighter at that point - it was second-line to the audience due to it not being a hero-plane, but that was about it. The VF-11's served the role the VF-171s do in Macross F: being the plane everyone else flies, and which gets blown up to show that the enemy's dangerous.

And like I said, the VF-25 is a multimission platform which is a throwback to the VF-1 series of planes; the VF-171 is currently serving a similar mission, which is why it's so common in the UN Spacy inventory as of Macross Frontier. Most of the other Variable Fighters we've seen since the original Macross have been fairly specialized planes, with specific missions they were designed for.

The YF-19 and YF-21 of Macross Plus were built to be air/space superiority fighters which could outmaneuver and outshoot any other planes they were sent up against, but weren't really built to be strike fighters or fighter-bombers as they didn't have the missile loadout or heavy armor for it; the VF-11s and VF-4's that preceeded them were built more to be tactical fighters or strike fighters that did two or three missions and that was it (interceptor roles, attacking capital ships, strike missions) with the VF-4 being the more heavily armed of the two. The VF-14 of the movie and the games was described as a 'heavy attack fighter' and carried what looked to be a lot of heavy energy guns and armor.

In Macross 7 you have the VF-17 which is a 'special operations fighter for space combat' due to its good performance in space and fairly heavy armament (two lasers, a turret, heavy gatling pod, 24 micromissiles before adding any Super packs), the VF-19 and VF-22 which are aerospace superiority fighters again that could function well in and out of atmosphere unlike the VF-17, and then the game VF-X-2 brought out the VF-500B Star Mirage with its laser cannon, gun pod, and four micromissile launchers along with the now-iconic VB-6 Konig Monster. Oh, and the VA-3M Invader 'flies underwater' VF.

Looking at all those series, the only general-purpose fighter which isn't specialized more or less for one role is the VF-500B Star Mirage, whose range of armaments and speed make it more or less fill the 'jack of all trades' role that the VF-1 had to do (by necessity) in the First Space War. The VF-25 is a return to the philosophy that planes should be good in most all roles without necessarily needing to be superior in any one function, with the interchangeable packs giving it the extra edge required to perform superbly in dogfighting (Super pack), attack/strike roles (Armored pack), or support functions (Sniper, Recon variants). And best of all, you could give the Sniper rifle to a VF with a Super or Armored pack as needed, or re-equip the Recon variant by letting it land long enough to exchange packs. And, unlike previous versions of the Armored pack, the VF-25 was able to maintain its maneuverability even despite the extra mass of armor and micromissile launchers as well as the ability to transform. A major breakthrough, there. Oh, and it maintains the 'easy to use' functionality that the VF-171 had, as Alto was able to get it going without much trouble despite not having any real flight time in a front-line Valkyrie up until that point; I don't know if he'd have been able to pull off the same things in Episode 2 if a VF-19 or VF-22 had landed there, as he might've been outperformed by the craft, and the VF-19 was notoriously 'touchy'.

Overall, the main breakthrough of the VF-25 isn't its overwhelming performance in terms of speed as compared to other planes so much as its ability to be superior in any role you give it with the right equipment, and still be able to do alright without it because it's not specialized more for one thing than another.