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Old 2010-11-05, 17:11   Link #5062
einhorn303
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Age: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
This doesn't work; I'm pretty sure "Human" and "Person" are the same in the Japanese, but even if they're not, "Human" and "Person" have been used exactly the same in every other situation, ever. You have a bad habit of taking the Red either too literally, or trying to apply special rules to certain reds in order to justify your way of thinking.
I've heard from people who speak Japanese that, yes, they are different terms.

The Red must be taken literally. To quote:
The red only tells the truth.
The red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence, proof, or room for a counter-argument!!
You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Here's a more likely scenario. "Hey guys, I'm Erika, a character given the assignment of 18th person by the Gamemaster." "We're sorry, but even though it is true you were given that assignment by your creator, there are only 17 people on the island. Deal with it."
That's not what Erika said. She said she was "the 18th human on Rokkenjima." Therefore, she is a human on Rokkenjima. She said nothing about being a character given an assignment. If anything is "trying to apply special rules to certain reds," it's taking what the Red Truth literally says and interpreting it to say something completely different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The Red Truth is something which is, one way or another, absolutely true we're told, right? Leaving aside the rules of this Red Truth, and it's specific workings, the person who introduced the Red Truth and defined it's powers IS NOT ACTUALLY A WITCH, and MAGIC CANNOT DO SOMETHING THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE BY HUMAN MEANS.

Beatrice is a human being. We know this, even if we haven't been able to explicitly prove it; it's the premise for our win condition. If Beatrice is a human being, how in the fuck can she just conveniently whip out some magical power that is magically compelled to be absolutely right all the time? She can't.
Magic doesn't exist on the gameboard or in reality, but it does exist in the meta world.
Notice that there are never any red truths spoken about the meta world. It doesn't hold up to any sort of logic or consistency, and can have any sort of magic: it's a hypothetical world of the author's imagination.

About the win condition: Battler has to disprove the existance of witches on the gameboard (and a very specific gameboard of that island, on those two days), not in the meta world. He's quite explicit about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The power of the Red Truth works because of what she says: That is, she only repeats things she knows are true from her own life experience (Maria's past, for instance), or she speaks about the Gameboards, which are fictions she (or a higher plane author, it doesn't matter) wrote herself, as they exist as stories in the "real world" of 1998. Of course she can speak about the truths of AN IMAGINARY WORLD SHE FUCKING INVENTED, and though these gameboards exist to help us discern the truth between them, these Red Truths do not necessarily speak of the reality of Rokkenjima Prime unless we are explicitly told so or we can prove they do. The Red Truth is no different from JK Rowling saying Dumbledore is Gay.
The higher plane author of all episodes is ryukishi07.

I find it difficult to except that there is a "Rokkenjima Prime" that is a "more real" than the gameboards. They're all equally fiction, written by ryukishi07. If JK Rowling says that Dumbledore is gay, then yes, that makes Dumbledore's homosexuality an absolutely truth in the world of Harry Potter. In the same sense, everything ryukishi07 writes in red is an absolute truth in the world of Umineko.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Hell, Beatrice even mentions using magic in Red when Ange tries to get Maria out of the Golden Land
Once again, she used magic in the meta world. Magic exists in the meta world, but in the gameboard or "reality." So the red truth isn't contradicted there. Anyways, if you don't trust the red truth of ryukishi07, then there's no point to any discussion about the "truth" of Umineko. Without the absolute truth provided by an infallible red, we're just talking about what we want to be the truth, or what we "believe" to be the truth, not what is the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
...meaning that in the most literal sense, the Red Truth is not absolutely reliable. It is treated as valid only because the players and readers involved decided to trust the speaker. Lambdadelta all but affirms this.
This should be in blue, not red.
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