[Macbrother]

First of all,

Believe me, that's more the clash between two guys with too much time in their hands

lol, so true. Anyways, on with the mandatory rebuttals :P

Your bad faith is just laughable, all these point were answer to the effect of age on Ninja in general and thus on the Sannin and Yondaime as well, just re-read your point about 'john the ninja' lol, it was all your argument used to say that the Sannin were stronger than when they were younger and thus that the 4th would have became even stronger and stronger during the 25 next years (and not just during a certain time).

Eh, first of all, what? My bad faith? Anyways, actually all those points had little to do with Yondaime. Do you know how we got on the subject? I said Sarutobi had 50 years to establish his strength and legend, whereas you said he was the strongest he was probably gonna be at 25. Then I provided to show examples using 'shinobi' to show that hey, with new ninjutsu learned over time, despite aging, they may in fact grow stronger, as stronger ninjutsu typically overwhelm weaker jutsu.

My point is only emphasized by Sarutobi, Yondaime, etc they are in fact geniuses, ninjutsu specialists who would more than probably learned and/or created more jutsu with time. The point of the sannin was that we had actual data sets of people at 50 who don't show even a hint of being hindered or weakened by age. You tried to argue well they aren't regular ninja, I can't use that for the general case, but then again I'm using them to prove my point about Sarutobi and Yondaime, who are far from the general case as well.

And no the Sannin do not make a perfect example of how the geniuses grow with age given that we don't don't how their strength grow since their youth.
The fact that they're still strong doesn't mean that they are stronger. Sarutobi was still strong, he wasn't stronger than when he was young.
They have new jutsu? Yeah that doesn't prove that it's enough to compensate their young health.
You have no evidence of the contrary you just wish for because you like the idea.

When I say a perfect example, I mean to say that they are of the same category (legendarily strong, genius, etc) like Yondaime, therefore it's similar data. And no, lol we don't know how their strength grew (or fell), but we do know that with their new jutsu, experience, etc, they could probably (or in the case of Orochimaru) certainly defeat their younger counterparts. And wish? lol. Let's not get carried away.

Don't make me laugh, you know nothing either about that, all your points are completely guesses since the beginning.

Eh? The only thing I know is what I said. Sarutobi had 30+ odd years as hokage. Yondaime had 3. Surely you are better able to build up your legend and showcase you strength in 30 years than you are 3.

If you admit that wisdom doesn't come automatically with age then my point remains, you have no point on the evolution of the 4th, just wish.

And genius doesn't mean wisdom at all, actually many genius aren't wise and lack of common sense for the very fact that they're not common.
Oro is a genius I wouldn't call him wise.

Admit? I never said it in the first place. And it's true, there are many different types of genius, but as I said before, typically when genius is thrown around (which I do think it's waaaay overused in Naruto) it's almost always referring to battle ability, learning jutsu, etc. I am here referring to it in the same way, just as I am referring to wisdom and how it would relate to fighting ability, which with someone who is a genius at fighting ability I would imagine their wisdom with it would certainly increase with the more battles they fought. And yes, in the grand spectrum things, I agree with the words of Sarutobi. Orochimaru is a fool.

No, you use unprecise words to try to make point, does knowledge will improve with age? Yeah in all probability, does Jutsu knowledge will improve with age? Just maybe.
And finally do new jutsus will improve strength?
Once again just maybe, any jutsu aren't enough to improve consequently the strength of the user or Kakashi would be Kage level since a long time.

It's not un-precision, just don't take the words outside of it's context. Obviously we are referring to fighting ability, obviously my use of wisdom is going to refer to wisdom as it would relate in a fight. Does jutsu knowledge improve with age? Likely, not maybe. No shinobi I know just completely quit attempting to learn as they grow older. Even Tsunade, in a fallen state, where all she gave a shit about was money, created a new jutsu. Does new jutsu significantly increase strength? No, it doesn't have to, but look what it did for Oro, Tsunade, Yondaime, etc. Of course new jutsu aren't going to increase Kakashi's ability significanlty, he's greatly limited by his chakra capacity, until/if/when he can increase that, he'll always be second-rate compared to his sensei, the sannin, etc.

You didn't explained anything to begin with, you merely stated your belief.
You just said that if there must be a difference then it's noticeable because... that doesn't fit with your point so difference : trace.
That's not an exaplanation that's just your wish again and again.

No, I didn't say if there is a difference it had to be noticable. There certainly could be a difference but it's so small we can't notice it, in fact that's precisely what I said. But, if the difference is so small its un-noticable, what's the point of mentioning it? And again, my wish? lol.

My evidence was the complete fallen state of Sarutobi that you could only countered by your usual answer when you have no answer : 'it's different in the world of Naruto', without any evidence of that btw.

Sarutobi was an old man, 67, when he faught Orochimaru. That is well beyond the point of age we are discussing, I never said it took 67 years to establish his legend. What's more relavent to our discussion is the abilities of the sannin, which don't appear to have suffered one bit.

As for Oro, no, that doesn't put him out of the point, that only proves my point, he created a new jutsu given time which helps him defeat old age. I would say that's improving strength with jutsu, wouldn't you? If we are solely talking about how age effects Oro, then yes, now with the jutsu he's got an X-factor, but still, do you think w/o the immortality jutsu he would've fared any worse against Sarutobi? Hardly. As for Tsunade, agian, there's nothing showing the younger Tsunade would have a significant advantage enough to beat the older one to a pulp. I'm aware you say 'if' and therefore are just saying that it's possible, but that is a very big if.

You don't say it but you reason as it's the case, Oro doesn't lose half of his chakra, he takes a body having its own stamina adding the power of his own soul, actually if the stolen body is well trained and powerful it's can be even better than previously especially if Oro's original body wasn't that good because Taijutsu wasn't his speciality.
Btw if it's obviously possible to create chakra imbued with more of one of the two energy, the result is unstable.

Okay, so are you saying here his legendary chakra is more tied to his soul then his actual body, so switching bodies will be irrelavent to his chakra capacity? While possible (and would explain why his chakra is still enormous with the new body), that doesn't then explain why age effects chakra capacity, if it's tied to the soul, not the aging body. (It seems the concept of the immortal soul exists in 'Naruto', Zabuza, Sandaime, etc referred to this)

And I think Tsunade was pretty clear about that when she said that she will be alright when her body would return to its young form.
The very fact that her physical strength remains the same than 30 years ago whereas the age and the state of her body out of her jutsu is in a pitiful and even older state that it should be due to her jutsu shows that.

If that's the case, why would Jiraiya, Orochimaru, etc, still be surprised, or remark that she 'still' has that legendary strength, whereas if she was still in her prime, that would be obvious. As for Tsunade's statement, A&A's translation says "It's alright, I can get back in my young form when I rest a bit." That says to me, form, that she's referring to her appearance, not necessarily back to her prime or legendary abilities.

I didn't say that the effects of age are constant, I said that these effect start to appear before 50 years old.

Indeed, but please show me where it affected a shinobi's ability :P Again, my overall point here being yes, the effects of age may very well begin before 50, but the health and good standing of the shinobi (or sannin, at least) don't start to make a noticable and rapid difference until later in age.

Oh and it was more like a 20~25 years old Orochimaru, he's not in his old body anymore remember?

Yes, but let's be real here, do you seriously think being 50 would've affected the outcome of the fight? Oro was hardly fighting at all througout the entire fight.

This is exactly what you said.

Yes, in my quote, but not what you claimed I said. "Againg process is exaggerated and therefore, we can conclude it's non-existant" is very different from "aging process is either very slow, or non-existant." The former is implication, the latter is a union. Furthermore, the latter implies we don't know, but just going by appearance, whereas the former implies I'm making some sort of definitive statement, which I'm not.

What other mean has 'You must sign the contract with the jutsu to see the god of death than this one?
You merely didn't see that he said signed with the jutsu and thus assumed that you should sign a contract with the Shinigami before -which is still possible btw, but not said.

I don't know, in fact that statement in both the manga translation I have and A&A's is very confusing. A contract is by definition an agreement between two parties, how the hell is a 'jutsu' considered a party or an entity? And you are correct, I did miss that little tidbit. :P I do think however that the latter (what I said) is more logical, for the above reason.

I don't know, that's why I said that we know nothing about this jutsu, but where is your imagination suddenly?
A contract with a heaven guard to borrow some souls for the week end for example ^^

My imagination fails me because I don't think it's very plausible that Oro makes a contract with anyone or anything due to the nature of the jutsu. He uses the sacrifce as placeholders for the souls, how he summons the souls is again a nuiance, even further, how he would've summoned Yondaime from the belly of the death god (if he is indeed there) is also beyond me, but again, the original point here being whether or not Oro would or could've completed this jutsu by 25, which is still unlikely any way you look at it.

The many missions he was engaging in, the fact that he hadn't been turned down has Hokage yet and we have nothing to show he was completely evil before then, surely someone of normal mind would not try to learn a jutsu such as this. Again, it's way more likely he got turned down and then started working on these 'evil' jutsu like Edo Tensei and the immortality one. In fact, in the manga translation, one of the anbu members says "your behavior has changed as well." Meaning, before then, Oro was probably not exhibiting the evilness which would be necessary to learn/create these kinjutsu.

I did, you just can't handle to admit that you didn't know what you talked about.
The shinigami coming to take the soul are utterly common stuff for japanese, they're used to the death (:P) in many mangas, movies, books, etc.
You didn't know it, that's all and that's not big a deal.

No you didn't. You simply said the nature of shinigami is common knowledge to the Japanese. That did not answer my question. I don't mind not knowing the nature of the shinigami, obviously since I'm not Japanese, nor do I regularly look into, research, or study Japanese mythology. I merely asked for the reference that they are indeed multiple, since every reference to the death god was 'the', not 'a'.

They were already considered as worthless, re-read what was the epitaph of Dosu by Kabuto...
Besides there is no indication that they were trained personally by Oro.
And in the end there is nothing to discuss about : they were used as sacrifice, so obviously Oro has no use for them anymore.
Zaku was armless and Kin wasn't even as useful as Sakura, he used them at their upmost utility : as corpses.

Fair enough, however my original point remains: Edo Tensei likely requires live bodies sacrificed specifically for the purpose of the jutsu. The entire part was in reference to where you said:

Besides Oro has plenty of corpses to dispose

-----

My bad, the way you say this I thought you meant to pick up already dead body, but if that so I don't understand what you mean, care to reformulate your point?

See above.

I checked the anime and the manga and no, you just cut off the sentence of the 1st to make look like he's surprised or wonder what happens which is clearly wrong.
The 2nd merely said that it was the Edo Tensei and praised Orochimaru then the 1st just said 'if that's the case, Sarutobi, we must fight you', showing that he got the situation and knew that he should fight Sarutobi given that he was summoned.

No surprise at all about the jutsu itself.

I cut off the sentence because that part is obvious, of course if he was summoned he's going to have to fight Sarutobi, that part should be obvious whether you know of Edo Tensei or not. The point was, instead of replying with something definitive, he words it with "if that's so" as if "hmm, if what you're saying is true" (that he summoned them with a kinjutsu) as if he didn't himself know in the first place.

That's just priceless

Equally as priceless, you leaving this out of the quote:

With this in mind, we move to ninjutsu/genjutsu users. Like Macbrother said, in this aspect ninjutsu is more like magic. The practionicers of these jutsus are more along the lines of sorcerers than track runners. In fiction (since there are, to my knowledge, no established and credible decent amount of spellcasters in the real world) the best magicians are the older, wiser ones. The ones with more experience and training. So, in this form, physical prowess plays almost no role in the effectiveness of the person.

I find really funny your ability to read what you want to read and not what is written

Indeed, it seems at least we are in agreement about each other on this point. Of course the rest of the stuff is also true, but that doesn't contradict or 'answer' (as you like to say) what I said, as I said they were part spell-caster, i.e., a part of them (their jutsu knowledge) will likely only grow more powerful with age.

Not for what we know, he was probably more diversified like Jiraiya.

The point I was getting at here was that they were both considered genius and both created jutsu (both of Yondaime's in fact, being ninjutsu, I'm wondering where you're getting this 'diversified idea)

Not only It's just anime filler but anyway there is no indication an a particulary incredible moves here.

The top one is filler, the below one is in fact in the manga.

Spoiler:

And here I was beginning to think your memory of the manga was photographic. You see? It shows how age can affect you, Hunter-sensei :P Oh, and yeah, I would consider movment so fast that you can't even clearly see their images to be fairly incredible movement for people who should be 25 years slower than their prime. (unless perhaps in their prime they moved at some speed beyond all recognition, which I don't think likely.)

You sure make look like your point is certain, if not I wouldn't even have started this discussion to begin with given that there is no real fact about it and that it's just about beliefs.

No, in fact I said in my first post we'll never know for sure.

I like how you try to change what I said with your stupid sentence in bold.
I said : right when they reach the peak in their field.
And so Scott Richter known as the spame king for example, or Serguei Bubka known since his youth until he was really old for an athlete as the beast pole vaulter ever, Schumacher for the F1 race, lol MJ as the King of the Pop when he was young maybe, Gaary Kasparov the Russian Bear of the check, or even Elvis Presley as The King, etc.

lol, I thought you would like that, the main reason I did it is to make it a more better comparison to Yondaime, who compared to the time the rest of the hokages spent, had 'just started.' But yeah I was a little sneaky there so examples of them being in their peak suffices.

I don't think so, I think he was the strongest way before he gained the title of professor and learned all the jutsu of Konoha for example.
Actually I think that the title Professor also have to do with the fact that he raised the Sannin, and I think he was already the strongest at this point.

Well they say specifically that the professor has to do with knowing all the jutsu in Konoha, it's possibly referring to the sannin as well, but, meh, anyway. What I mean is, There would be certain reasons for being called the 'god of the shinobi.' I would think one of those reasons would be for knowing all the jutsu, that would certainly improve your ability to fight, to be able to react to any situation whatsoever, I think that has alot to do with it.