Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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Spoiler for @ Znozzy:
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Originally Posted by Znozzy
Let's see now, in Seed, the EA got whipped, lost their mass driver(s) and invaded orb because of the following:
1. They had facilities
2. They had a Mass driver
That's why, since the EA needed a mass driver to get to space, that was the effort it was worth, thats why we don't see anything from Orb after the Mass driver is blown up, the maincrew moved to space with Azrael's forces on the ground. (for now)
Where did they ever say " SHIET, ORB IS SO POWERFUL THEY COULD POSSIBLY DETER OUR ARMADA " they never did, and Orb surely did fall, two days after the battle ensued with lots of losses aswell, Orb took its armed forces and ran off to space, with the only warship they had, pretty desperate for a country that could deter them, no?
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Yes but EA didn't get anything out of it. They wasted all that time on nothing and what's more Kusanagi went on to factor in EA's defeat in SEED. Ultimately the costs outweighed the positives. They didn't know that at the time but now in Destiny they'd know that. At least, that would be Orb's perspective.
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Yeah, they did, Athrun sure did regret it aswell
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He thought it was incredibly unfortunate but he didn't regret the actual act.
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it's irrelevant because Zaft never planned on attacking orb at all, Orb deterred a small conflict on their waters, which every neutral country should do, armed conflicts happen alot in real life too, do you see every country go to war every time it happens? no, you don't, its a waste of efforts, resources and usually money, and not to mention soldiers
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Exactly. ZAFT didn't think it was worth going to war with Orb and I made that exact same point to monster regarding the EA:
Spoiler for space:
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Originally Posted by Haak
But still, EA isn't some stupid superpower that just sends mobile suits where there's an enemy. It also has to consider strategy, advantages, disadvantages and the costs of fighting for enemy territory compared to another. A neutral nation that has proven to be nothing but pain in the arse should really be right near the back of their list, just like it was in the first season.
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Problematic for Zaft? Zaft could curbstomp Orb if they felt like it.
Once again, let me try and explain this in a simple manner so you actually understand what i'm trying to say, since you seem to have a hard time getting the point.
Zaft was chasing one ship and one mobile suit.
the AA was one ship and one mobile suit
Orb's naval fleet came to defend its own waters from an outside attack and to prevent the two parties from having an armed conflict on their waters.
Athrun understood that, so he pulled his forces back because a threeway fight with those small numbers would be suicide.
Athrun is a decent commander and decides to go with Stealth over brute force and infiltrates Orb because:
1. Waging war against a country, regardless how small or big it is for ONE SHIP and ONE MOBILE SUIT is not something you do when you are already fighting a close to planet-scale war
2. It is called making a good choice to not run in guns blazing, what Yzak Joule thinks is irrelevant, he was immature and constantly hung up on revenge throughout most of Seed after he was scarred by Kira in the strike.
3. If the Zaft high council, which i highly doubt since they are engineer'd super-humans agreed to attack Orb because they had ONE SHIP and ONE MOBILE SUIT there, they might aswell start start nuking themselfs because there would be no plot in the show at all anymore.
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Most of what you said was irrelevant since it was referring to the actual incident when Archangel enters Orb's territory. I wasn't referring to that, and I don't think the fact that Orb deterred Athrun's ship in that incident is proof that Orb can deter the whole of ZAFT, nor did I ever make that point.
I'm talking about after the incident, where they did have the option of bringing the rest of ZAFT after getting pissed at Orb's obvious lie. As you pointed out, ZAFT would be stupid to do that just because Orb were hardlined for one ship, which perfectly illustrates that there's more to deterrence than just power and Orb knew ZAFT wouldn't bother since it just wasn't worth it.
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Common sense doesnt apply to a show where main characters proportions are inhuman, Giant robots are the norm, engineer'd super humans are also the norm living in giant blue hourglasses in space. Irrelevant. the Ea could've won over Zaft if they just nuked them off the bat, but they didnt.
Orb is a peaceful nation, you leave it alone, they leave everyone alone, poke it and they will defend themselfs, but they will not attack anyone else.
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If you look at the above point, you'll find that you just spent a good deal of time proving that what is "common sense" is actually relevant, despite all the obviously unrealistic qualities of mecha anime in general. In my opinion, it's jarring when characters or groups act completely devoid of logic and makes watching the rest of show difficult when the show is trying to hypocritically make characters sympathetic because of genuine emotions or conflicts grounded in reality.
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Good, moving on.
Overanalyzing, clearly Uzumi's leadership and the Seiran's differ on some major points which we see in Destiny. accept what Destiny showed us.
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Destiny did not show us that Seirans had their own ideals that were equal in strength, both legally and culturally to Orb as Uzumi's. That's my issue.
And Uzumi's ideals were clearly presented as Orbs in SEED. I already brought this up with monster and even he couldn't deny it.
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No, it obviously doesnt since your entire point about him being high in the command fell. Don't be a stubborn loser.
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I'm afraid my point does still stand. Athrun is reasonable high in command to have a better grasp of what is good for ZAFT than someone like Yzak at the time of SEED.
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Seriously, stop making things up, Orb never thought they could deter the full Zaft force that came at them, Yuna somehow though he could pull the same PR thing Usumi pulled with the AA. If they thought they could deter them, wouldn't they've assembled their army as soon as Zaft came?
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I thought they did.
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Where did they ever say " SHIET, ORB IS SO POWERFUL THEY COULD POSSIBLY DETER OUR ARMADA " they never did
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Once again, let me try and explain this in a simple manner so you actually understand what i'm trying to say, since you seem to have a hard time getting the point
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Good, moving on.
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Don't be a stubborn loser.
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I don't really know what your beef is because honestly, I've felt I've been quite patient even if i've maybe been a little blunt. But I think you'll find that I have been non-hostile all throughout my debate with you so I'm struggling to understand why you're acting like this. I mean monster hasn't been perfect either but for him I can at least recognise that it was a gradual process and since I've been just as exasperated, I'm not willing to blame him for anything (and even then he's been nowhere near this hostile despite everything). You however, just straight up decided to act hostile almost right from the get go.
I'm saying this now because I want to be clear: This is a warning. Knock it off..
If you can't, then let me know too because then i can add you onto my ignore list. You'd pretty much been the only one on there but still, you don't have any excuse for this.
Spoiler for @ monster:
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Originally Posted by monster
Archangel doesn't have the technology, Kira/Lacus does. And there's no indication that they would share it.
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The fact that they're living in Orb should be more than enough indication for other nations. And even there is no indication Kira/Lacus wants to share it, that doesn't excuse Orb from trying. Like I said, the situation Orb is in, you'd think they'd bagger Kira/Lacus for eternity. And yet it wasn't even factored in once.
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That maybe true for Junius 7, but not for subsequent attacks. The EA knows that ZAFT has the technology to make nuclear weapons since ZAFT invented the NJC.
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They still thought only PLANT would be destroyed since they specifically rationalized that it would quickly bring an end to the war, hence why they named it Operation: Peacemaker.
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Alright, but that still didn't bring the conflict to a stand still. It only prevented the EA from trying to attack ZAFT with nuclear weapons. Actually, with the Neutron Stampeder, the EA lost the capability of effectively using nuclear weapons against ZAFT. So MAD wasn't even a factor.
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It must have been if it would force the EA to stop nuclear attacks completely. The first response would typically be to try again, see how they did it and try and find a way to circumvent it. Instead, Jibril went through the effort of making an entirely new, ridiculously huge weapon just for that purpose before trying anything else.
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In fact, the fact that EA even used nuclear weapons in the first place showed that MAD was never a factor.
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No, like I said, the reason MAD wasn't a factor when EA used nuclear weapons beforehand was because EA didn't believe mutually assured destruction could even happen, not because they didn't care.
This is different from Orb's situation. In this situation, Orb has just seen EA use a nuclear attack and will clearly be ready with it's own (assuming it did have nuclear weapons), so EA can't possibly hope for an attack without consequences.
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At the end of the day, that distinction is irrelevant to Orb because Orb was still attacked.
Orb now knows that if the EA ever wants something from Orb, the EA is willing to get it by force.
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And now Orb knows it will ultimately end up winning and regain it's country back. If the distinction is irrelevant there then it'll be irrelevant here as well.
Ultimately Orb isn't (or rather shouldn't) be that stupid. They ought to be able to recognise that they prevented EA from getting what it wanted, they ought to be able to recognise what effect that would have on the EA and the ought to be able to recognise that means the EA will be less inclined to waste it's resources again. The fact that they were attacked the first time does not disprove any of this
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You're confusing the two.
Orb knows the EA from SEED.
The Destroys are merely examples of what the EA are capable and willing to do.
Try not to mix the two.
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Wait a minute. I asked you to explain why the bolded was relevant to what we're talking about since the point is only on Orb's perspective before the treaty and nothing more. And then you responded by saying "because Orb knows EA from SEED" as if the two points are somehow related.
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And the Orb invasion is a perfectly legitimate reason for Orb to believe they're not capable of deterring the EA.
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Provided there are no other factors...
But you can at least recognise that the Destroy argument isn't relevant here right? I'm only pushing for an answer because I wanted to make sure I wouldn't get any beef about ignoring anything you've said. Don't bother responding to this if you don't want to.
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And you've also admitted that Orb was not strong enough to defend itself against the EA.
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Admitted? I never made the point to begin with, but yeah sure I'll "admit" to that. ..
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So without the power to defeat the EA, and if being neutral wasn't enough to keep the EA, then what will actually deter the EA from attacking Orb anytime it wants something from Orb?
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That's what we're arguing above. I'm just pointing out that the SEED invasion isn't complete proof EA can't be deterred and that other factors can make a difference. In your original point you were making it sound as if no other factors could possibly affect this which I took issue with.
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That would require Orb to possess something as a deterrence. Otherwise, if the EA ever wants something from Orb it would try to take it by force again.
And In the 2 years since SEED, there's no indication that Ob has suddenly gained anything that would deter an attack.
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See above.
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My point is that Athrun does not speak for all of ZAFT's leadership. The reason why Athrun didn't attack was because he's the kind of person who wouldn't needlessly attack without need.
But just because Athrun is like that, it doesn't mean that Orb is capable of deterring an attack from either EA or ZAFT.
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Athrun has his own reasons to not want Orb attacked but I maintain that in that scene and the way he matter of factly stated it would be an issue which even Yzak conceded, it seemed very much like exposition. I don't think we were supposed to doubt what Athrun was saying wasn't true.
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Heck, ZAFT's invasion of Orb in Destiny proves that if they really want it, they have no problem attacking Orb.
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As the commander stated to Yuna in Destiny " Those were two complete different circumstances!!!"
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We're talking about ZAFT in this part.
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Sorry. Typo.
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It is when the "PR stunt" is a lie that attempts to negate the very reason why ZAFT would attack in the first place.
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No, a PR stunt is just a lie to look good to the masses and not necessarily ZAFT. But actually, I'm going to drop this point because on further inspection, it does seem Yuna thought the lie itself would deter ZAFT as I clearly remember him wondering to himself why ZAFT would attack after he told them Jibril wasn't here. Granted it could've just been him that was idiotic and his father who made the decision was more perceptive, but that would just be fanwanking.
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Orb tried to fool ZAFT in SEED as well.
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There's no way Orb could possibly believe ZAFT would believe that lie as Yzak stated. If you watch that scene, you'll see for yourself and that it's a group that knows Orb is messing with them and knowing full well they don't expect them to believe it.
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