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Old 2007-06-06, 12:41   Link #281
stormturmoil
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well, in order

- travel: we have no idea how long it takes. We do know that there are limits to how far a person can teleport themselves in one Transfer, which is why ships are used as relay points. we never see how well ships can get about, but they can apparently go anywhere.

-in terms of scattered: we don't know that either. since they are all occupying different dimensions, I couldn't even begin to guess how scattering could even be represented, much less measured, but presumably the STAB has a way.

- There are indeed space stations: The main bureau headquarters is a giant station, albeit in higher dimensional spacetime. You could call the Garden of Time a kind of space station too I guess, but again, that was in Higher Dimensional spacetime. As for Realspace, we don't know.

-as for different forms of space other than realspace, we know for a fact there is so called higher dimensional Space-time, so there is at least one. Other than that, it depends on your definition of rwalspace. For example, Both Earth and Midchilda are in a realspace, but they aren't the same Spacetime

- The infinite Libraray: It's definitiely very big...as for infinite...we don't know...It could be, with it existing in outer dimensional space ( and so outside the laws of physics as we know it). It's supposed to contain all information from all dimensions and realms though, so if anything, I'd expect it to have to be considerably larger than merely infinite...

- We see large quantites of books and manuscripts, but also some crystal looking things and tower cases that might be computer type storage. It may be that whatever it's stored in in it's native plane just gets lifted and brought in.

- The Infinite Library is (I think) part of the Bureau central headquarters, which is a giant space station in outer dimensional space time. If this is the case, the reason it's weightless is simply because no Gravity devices were installed there.

- We don't know. We do know that Yuuno, a Civilian, can both access the Libraray and get access to sensitive data ( historical, but still relating to a very dangerous lost logia). Admittedly, he was on Bureau time, but he was still an unafiliated civilian freelancing for them at that point, so I can't see security being that tight. Presumably anything to dangerous gets reclassified and stored with the lost logia.

- As for remote access: we don't know. it may be possible for some stuff, but I suspect all you'd get is a screen saying "please stae your access request" and then a reply" your request will be completed within the next three months approximately. Have a nice day" after which Yuuno and any helpers he has get digging.

so yes...there are a lot of unknowns.
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Old 2007-06-13, 12:49   Link #282
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I haven't gone through the entire thread yet, and my INT level isn't as high as the rest of you, so what I say may seem very foolish. My apologies in advance .

[ramblings]

Regarding Yuuno's access to the Library's contents. I would argue that special privileges can be granted should you have the right reasons, proof of your usefulness, urgency of the matter at hand, and of course, very good connections with the high and mighty. In fact I would imagine that lots of doors would open should you say, "Admiral Graham approved this".

Again, we can also argue that the information he gathered might not have all been classified as confidential. They could have been offhanded notes in other works, or stuff which might seem unrelated at the first look. Yuuno could possibly have started by looking for anything that has the Yami no Sho tag on it and then slowly expanded on what he had found, analysing and establishing possible and reliable connections, which in turn leads to further revelations and more areas to explore. IIRC, this is a well-used method in many branches of knowledge, archaeology being one of them.

I doubt the Infinite Library is really infinite, but it could be very, very extensive (like a huge Tome of the Night Sky) to the point that very few mortals could go through all its contents in a lifetime. Its age most likely exceeds that of the TSAB, and might have existed since the early ages of Midchildan history. Alternatively, it's possible that the Midchildans used their own database as a foundation and merged it with other similar "libraries" along the way, creating the Infinite Library that we see today. In either case, I doubt information is stored in the same manner as we do here in our own libraries, aka in the form of perishable mediums. It is highly possible that the library is like a huge brain, with all the information stored as... how should I put this...erhmm... perhaps similar to memories or thoughts. The books, crystals and etc are interfaces with which users can interact with the Library, perhaps reflecting how the contents were initially stored before they were transferred to the Library's database. Or to put in simpler terms (I hope), it maybe the TSAB version of the Akashic Records.

Repost perhaps, I think this was mentioned/discussed before, but nonetheless I wonder if Summoning originated from the Belkan system. I was rewatching #7 and it dawned on me that Lutecia's summoning square is really a modified Belkan formation. If you look closer, it's actually 4 Belkan triangles (with one line bent inwards) interlinked with each other, creating a square as the final product. Carol's appear to have the same design. As such, I wonder if Summoning is limited to Belkan only, or whether the Midchildan system has it as well.

If they do, the obvious question would be "what is/are the difference(s)". If they don't, why? One would also wonder whether the Ancient Belkan system took things too far and explored into areas that practitioners of its mother system frowned on.

[/ramblings]
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Old 2007-06-22, 07:43   Link #283
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I'm not sure if this was covered, but in A's series, we know that Arc-en-Ciel was used against Book of Darkness several times, in deep space so we already know what results the firing of the weapon.

But what I'm wondering is what kind of effects would it have if Arc-en-Ciel were fired against a target on a planet. A's was rather vague, describing effects as 'destroying everything within diameter of several hundred kilometers.' That's significant area covered, but doesn't make any mention whether its linear damage, or sphereical, radiating out in all directions.
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Old 2007-06-22, 07:48   Link #284
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Originally Posted by darkalpha View Post
I'm not sure if this was covered, but in A's series, we know that Arc-en-Ciel was used against Book of Darkness several times, in deep space so we already know what results the firing of the weapon.

But what I'm wondering is what kind of effects would it have if Arc-en-Ciel were fired against a target on a planet. A's was rather vague, describing effects as 'destroying everything within diameter of several hundred kilometers.' That's significant area covered, but doesn't make any mention whether its linear damage, or sphereical, radiating out in all directions.
This is a direct quote from Wikipedia:

Quote:
Arc-en-ciel (アルカンシェル, Arc-en-ciel?)
The most powerful weapon of the TSAB investigative vessel Arthra (and as of 2006, the only known weapon of the Arthra). Called a "magic cannon (魔導砲, madōhō?)", it destroys a region with a radius of over 100 kilometers around the target point by distorting the time-space of that region. Because of its great destructive potential, it can only be fired with the ship commander's key.
Kinda like a chrono-shift cannon that erases the target area from the effective time phase. At least that's how it seems to me. Will this answer do?
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Old 2007-06-22, 08:08   Link #285
felix
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So basically if you fire it a planet, you should see a crater.
It should be considered as any other weapon, the only difference is that it's damage is absolute.
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Old 2007-06-22, 09:05   Link #286
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I would say something like a temporary gravitational singularity that warps an area of space around it, tearing mass free with tremendous Gs. This would leave a crater after space "normalizes", but since it was not fired on planetary surface before, we may never know. That ending particulate after-explosion resembles the x-ray photograph of the some professor's name Effect, but my memory of that phenomenon is questionable, especially when I can't remember the name of the prof.
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Old 2007-06-22, 09:12   Link #287
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So it wouldn't be considered as a planet-destroyer weapon? I talked with a friend of mine who was well versed in military and weapons, and he definitely considered it to be one. But then again, it was based on what I'd mentioned to him about it having destructive radius of "hundreds of kilometers" which was given by the Triad fansubs, not the 100km given by Wiki.
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Old 2007-06-22, 09:38   Link #288
felix
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The did say it would cause earthquakes and destroy Hayate's house.
But just because it's a city destroyer doesn't mean it's a planet destroyer.

Also the earth is thousand of kilometers.
So 100km or hundreds of kilometers doesn't make a difference.
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Old 2007-06-22, 09:51   Link #289
Kha
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A gravitational attack of a core able to affect hundreds of kilometers would become significant enough to cause Earth own gravity to attract and move both parties, and so not only cause planetary earthquakes but possibly shift earth from its currect orbit around the sun. Any "minor" change will also affect the climate. While the planet'd be still around after the attack, the amount of real estate leveled coupled with permanent climate change, the 97th would be pretty much screwed.

Anyway, if scale of the planet to the blast is anything to go by, 100km is about accurate.
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Old 2007-06-22, 09:55   Link #290
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Ah, this discussion reminded me of the ways to destroy the Earth.
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Old 2007-06-22, 10:00   Link #291
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A gravitational attack of a core able to affect hundreds of kilometers would become significant enough to cause Earth own gravity to attract and move both parties, and so not only cause planetary earthquakes but possibly shift earth from its currect orbit around the sun. Any "minor" change will also affect the climate. While the planet'd be still around after the attack, the amount of real estate leveled coupled with permanent climate change, the 97th would be pretty much screwed.

Anyway, if scale of the planet to the blast is anything to go by, 100km is about accurate.
We need to understand that Arc-en-Ciel was a totally viable option for them though... I mean, if firing it had risk of...very very painful long-term damage to planet, what's the point? Sure, Mid-childans may not give 2 cents to Earth when it actually matters, but from their general reactions to it...it doesn't seem that bad, minus around 50 to hundred kilometers of lost land mass. Otherwise, you may as well classify Arc as a long-term illness planet-corroding Lost Logia then.
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Old 2007-06-22, 10:21   Link #292
Kha
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We need to understand that Arc-en-Ciel was a totally viable option for them though... I mean, if firing it had risk of...very very painful long-term damage to planet, what's the point? Sure, Mid-childans may not give 2 cents to Earth when it actually matters, but from their general reactions to it...it doesn't seem that bad, minus around 50 to hundred kilometers of lost land mass. Otherwise, you may as well classify Arc as a long-term illness planet-corroding Lost Logia then.
Oh yeah I forgot earth was a Non-Administrated World (NW). Makes sense since in an alternate future the 97th got leveled to make a intergalactic super highway.

That makes my earlier point moot. But nonetheless, I'm more inclined to the 100km as opposed to the 1k for 100km is already pushing the limit of how much firepower can one squeeze into a frigate. This is from a feasibility POV; I'm not sure if Nanohaverse uses Super Robot Physics, but the existence of Strikers seems to suggest normal physics operation.
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Old 2007-06-22, 11:22   Link #293
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Kha they didn't seem to be even 1/4 the way to the moon.

So your point earlier about the disruption of gravitational forces is invalid,
If it were true then don't you think they were still too close for comfort.
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Old 2007-06-22, 12:28   Link #294
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We don't actually have any information on whether the Arc-en-ciel would take a big clean spherical bite out of the planet, or just slam the hell out of it, or what. It's safe to say that using the device on a target in or near Tokyo Bay would make a big hole in the island of Honshu, including at least all of Tokyo, so we're talking tens of millions of casualties.

That -is- pretty hardcore, a good reason not to fire the sucker, and you really have to question Graham's judgment in dropping the book on a girl living in one of the most built-up areas in the world - couldn't he have moved her to Hokkaido or something while he was at it? (Then again, he was planning to use the Durandal on it, not the Arc...)
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Old 2007-06-22, 12:32   Link #295
felix
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But one has to wonder, why seal it in a populated area.
There surely could have been better places.

But, darkalpha raised the issue of weather or not it's planet destroyer.
And the answer at the moment seems to be: No.
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Old 2007-06-22, 12:47   Link #296
Kha
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As whether Arc is a planet destroyer, ans is no as Cats have said.

However, about the cannon's operation, the article states that it involves distorting time-space, and the most common way of doing that is with gravity.

It seems that in the Nanohaverse, extremely high concentrations of energy seem to have the same effect. It can be explained using Terran science that high energy concentration, though minute, has its own gravity, so with enough, the gravity would build up and warp space around its center. Now the amount of energy required for that is insane, but since a girl can cause TS ripples, I suppose a battleship's reactive can provide enough juice.

BUT I RAMBLE OFF TOPIC AGAIN!!!

I guess the key question here is: How does something warp TS without warping a very much bigger radius than itself? For an intense gravity well 100km wide that is able to cause that kind of damage, the "effective aoe" of the gravity field would probably reach Mars and Venus.
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Old 2007-06-22, 13:31   Link #297
felix
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However, about the cannon's operation, the article states that it involves distorting time-space, and the most common way of doing that is with gravity.
And when Nanoha uses an attack things go boom,
Does that mean her attacks imply fire or nuclear fission/fusion..

It was a magic attack, the laws of physics do not apply.
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I guess the key question here is: How does something warp TS without warping a very much bigger radius than itself? For an intense gravity well 100km wide that is able to cause that kind of damage, the "effective aoe" of the gravity field would probably reach Mars and Venus.
If you really want to hear a semi-explanation on the subject, think of the difference between gravity and atomic forces.
Just because it's insanely powerful doesn't mean it reaches far.
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Old 2007-06-22, 13:50   Link #298
Kha
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And when Nanoha uses an attack things go boom,
Does that mean her attacks imply fire or nuclear fission/fusion..

It was a magic attack, the laws of physics do not apply.If you really want to hear a semi-explanation on the subject, think of the difference between gravity and atomic forces.
Just because it's insanely powerful doesn't mean it reaches far.
Unfortunately... I tend to think in terms of science for the Nanohaverse, and many of us do, hence why this thread exists. Unfortunately, this is the season where I'm running into wall after scientific wall.

A big particle cannon works the same way as Nanoha does, so we left it as it was.

A gravitational weapon has a tremendous AOE because of what it naturally does to TS. Since its so flawed, let's leave it. Maybe this proves that mana, because we've agreed that it is very different from normal energy, it has a far higher gravitational constant, but a much lower permeability of space. Mathematically, we get the same damage output, but with greater damage concentration at the core of the blast, and less AOE. Looking from this angle, suddenly having Arc run on gravitational effects of mana seems like a plausible and feasible idea.

...
...
...

I think I just killed everyone with formulas again.
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Old 2007-06-22, 14:40   Link #299
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Speaking of the arc-en-ciel, it has some important clues to the TSAB's tech-level to me. They have the ability to either generate unlimited amounts of magical energy like we can generate electricity, or they can convert other forms of energy into magical energy. The only other way to power it up to such levels would be to have an army of mages dump their power into it before firing. And that to me doesn't seem to be what was implied in A's.
And if they can generate that much magical energy for a canon, they can potentially generate tiny amounts for other purposes.
For example, pump that energy into a cylinder to make it spin, and you have the core of a motor, a magically-powered motor. Just look how ubiquitous motors are in our civilization and you have an idea how important this could be for them.
Another example, imagine a 'T' junction. What if a magical current flowing through the column can change the size of the current flowing through the bar. That's how a transistor works, the fundamental building block of modern computers.
I think it's possible that everything we see in the TSAB and it's administered world that uses energy actually uses magical energy.
But if that's the case, the way mages fight is dowright primitive in comparison.
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Old 2007-06-22, 14:56   Link #300
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The Arc en Ciel is most likely powered by some sort of widely available relic, take for example the which in season one, -forgot her name- should that kind of tech be readily available there would be no need to collect such things as the lost-logia would there.

But more likely its some sort of artificial lost-logia. Or just a plot hole.
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