AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Nanoha

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2007-06-22, 16:23   Link #301
darkalpha
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise View Post
Ah, this discussion reminded me of the ways to destroy the Earth.
Lol! I thorougly enjoyed that article. I guess I was too optimistic in thinking that Arc-en-Ciel qualified as a planet-destroyer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
We need to understand that Arc-en-Ciel was a totally viable option for them though... I mean, if firing it had risk of...very very painful long-term damage to planet, what's the point? Sure, Mid-childans may not give 2 cents to Earth when it actually matters, but from their general reactions to it...it doesn't seem that bad, minus around 50 to hundred kilometers of lost land mass. Otherwise, you may as well classify Arc as a long-term illness planet-corroding Lost Logia then.
Actually, when I did my rushed calculations, I'm rather suprised by the lukewarm reaction by Mid-childans. See below to see what I mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
But one has to wonder, why seal it in a populated area.
There surely could have been better places.

But, darkalpha raised the issue of weather or not it's planet destroyer.
And the answer at the moment seems to be: No.
I had wanted to know about Arc-en-Ciel's effect as well. Quoting an earlier quote from Wiki:

Quote:
it destroys a region with a radius of over 100 kilometers around the target point
Even if I used base unit of just 100km, that still translates to a diameter of 200km, or about 125 miles. That's 31,400 square km (slightly over 12,000 sq mi), little smaller than state of Maryland. That's almost 10% of the entire landmass of Japan. But that's just the surface. Since it's a TS weapon, we should consider the three-dimensional impact, so that's 4.1 million cubic km (almost 1 million cubic miles). Since TSA had intended to fire it upon Earth, that'd be about 1.5% of the planet's mass (since half is land, while other half is atmopshere). While I don't know about physics, but wouldn't that be a significant amount of mass gone? It may not be enough for the plane to spin itself apart or cause its orbit to change, but surely it'd be enough to at least wreak havoc on the Earth's gravitional fields as well as its distrubution of landmass. Not to mention large volumes of water and air disappearing in an instant, creating a vaccum as water fills in the crater and air to fill the void. Ocean levels would definitely drop dramatically (not to mention tsunamis around the planet), distrupting the currents and ocean's ecosystem. Weather patterns would be severely disrupted for decades, if not centuries, which would bring about planet-wide enviromental disasters.

Now, aside from over dozens of millions of people vanishing in an instant, there would be still aftermath that could kill off another dozen millions more, if not in hundred millions. Not to mention populations of countless species on the planet, some of them being completely wiped out.

Now, Arc-en-Ciel may not be a planet destroyer weapon, but it certainly would qualify as a civilization-destroying weapon, wouldn't it?

EDIT: I may be wrong with my calculations, but since math isn't my forte, I mostly used google and wiki. ^^;;
darkalpha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-22, 16:32   Link #302
Deathkillz
~ You're dead ^__^* ~
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: uk, England
Age: 24
Send a message via MSN to Deathkillz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
I think it's possible that everything we see in the TSAB and it's administered world that uses energy actually uses magical energy.
But if that's the case, the way mages fight is dowright primitive in comparison.
kinda like how in the real world we have nukes while people using guns phails in comparison

about the Arc-en-ciel ~ imo it is like an "eraser" cannon in that once it hits it completely erases the existance of anything in the area enclosed by the beam...and if you are to take that area damage even though it may not seem much when compared to the landmass of a planet ~ the planet itself isnt really that deep...if it completely hits spot on a weak tectonic plate you can expect the world to blow up with natural disasters ~ as the "balance of nature" is destroyed something has to happen to try and equalize what has been done...and this is where water rushing in to fill the rather large pot hole comes in ~ in the form of huge tsunamis...
__________________

Siggy: hohohohoho~ | AnimeHistory welcome to our blog ~ | Summer2009 early review
Under the radar series Summer2009: Kanamemo, GA Geijutsuka Art, NEEDLESS
Deathkillz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-22, 16:32   Link #303
stormturmoil
Field Medic
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Send a message via AIM to stormturmoil Send a message via MSN to stormturmoil
Certainly. So, despite the lukewarm response, why was it considered a viable response?

The Arc En Ciel, even if it's a civilisation threatening event, is small change compared to the Book of Darkness, which ex[pands infinitely and is therefore fully capable destroying entire Universes (as we use the term)...and then causing it's own dimensional dislocation to shift to new Universes ( possibly destroying a few more in the process) to start it again...and that's without considering the unlimited reincarnation thing...

Thus, it's a choice...kill off six billion (roughly) innocents on Earth to save a potentially infinite number of potentially infinite numbers of other innocents in other dimensions...
stormturmoil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-22, 17:23   Link #304
Avatar_notADV
Once and Current Subber
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Right - this is why Adm. Graham was dumb. ;p

Of course, a lot of that was probably to assuage his own conscience - he basically picked out a little girl to die (well, frozen sleep for eternity, whatever). Doing that and then making her live in the butt-end of nowhere as well? Might have gotten him caught, too...

Not much point in speculating how much actual destructive power it represents - we've only seen it fired twice, both at targets in space, which were wiped out each time. No telling how big the "splash damage" would really be. Of course, if it really is "leaves a hole in the planet the size of a small moon", then having one of the knights say "that would be bad for Hayate's house!" would be extraordinarily stupid, no? So maybe it's not -that- bad.
Avatar_notADV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-22, 18:08   Link #305
Skane
Anime Snark
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 32
Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Right - this is why Adm. Graham was dumb. ;p

Of course, a lot of that was probably to assuage his own conscience - he basically picked out a little girl to die (well, frozen sleep for eternity, whatever). Doing that and then making her live in the butt-end of nowhere as well? Might have gotten him caught, too...

Not much point in speculating how much actual destructive power it represents - we've only seen it fired twice, both at targets in space, which were wiped out each time. No telling how big the "splash damage" would really be. Of course, if it really is "leaves a hole in the planet the size of a small moon", then having one of the knights say "that would be bad for Hayate's house!" would be extraordinarily stupid, no? So maybe it's not -that- bad.
Erm... you might want to rewatch A's. The Tome of the Night Sky chooses its next master, not Graham.

Cheers.
__________________
Skane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-22, 19:16   Link #306
Avatar_notADV
Once and Current Subber
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Ah, my bad. I'm actually rewatching A's now, but not to that ep yet. ;p

Still dumb of him - he obviously knew it was there the whole time, he's the one paying the bills... "Hey, why don't you move out here, away from the big city?" would not have been beyond the pale. You can't even say "he just doesn't care about the lives of the indigenous people", he's from -Britain-. (And just too young to have picked up a bunch of WW2 anti-Japanese sentiment, too...)
Avatar_notADV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-22, 20:33   Link #307
Kha
~ I Do ~
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Ah, my bad. I'm actually rewatching A's now, but not to that ep yet. ;p

Still dumb of him - he obviously knew it was there the whole time, he's the one paying the bills... "Hey, why don't you move out here, away from the big city?" would not have been beyond the pale. You can't even say "he just doesn't care about the lives of the indigenous people", he's from -Britain-. (And just too young to have picked up a bunch of WW2 anti-Japanese sentiment, too...)
The Durandal could freeze just the Mistress and the Book. The Arc would blast open most of Tokyo. And Graham intended to use Durandal instead and not the Arc.

Of course he never planned that he'd need the Arc's firepower back then. It might be even safe to say that the Arc might not have been invented back then, and the most powerful battleship gun at that time wasn't a planet cracker.
__________________
Kha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-22, 21:31   Link #308
Mow Yun
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Age: 24
Send a message via AIM to Mow Yun
Except the last Book of Darkness incident was the one with Chrono's father, and they used the Arc en' Ciel. It had to have been invented for him to use it on the ship, right :?
Mow Yun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-22, 21:36   Link #309
Chaos2Frozen
She's Watching
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SG Panopticon
Age: 26
Either way, it wasn't in his plan to use Arc-en-Ciel, after all he has painful memories of it.

EDIT:

And not to mention it doesn't seem to work when used outright

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2007-06-22 at 22:05.
Chaos2Frozen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-22, 22:01   Link #310
Jimmy C
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
kinda like how in the real world we have nukes while people using guns phails in comparison
It's looks worse than that to me. If they can generate magical energy artifically, it almost completely bypasses the need for a mage to use her own power in combat.
It's like fighting with your fists when your opponents are using tanks or fighters, and the conditions are in their favour.
Jimmy C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-22, 22:11   Link #311
darkalpha
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
The Durandal could freeze just the Mistress and the Book. The Arc would blast open most of Tokyo. And Graham intended to use Durandal instead and not the Arc.
Speaking of Durandal, the way Graham had intended to execute his plan to take care of Book of Darkness seemed rather dubious to me. Why wait until the point when BoD is about to go berserk before freezing the tome and its master? Graham already knew about Hayate and the tome WAY before the tome awakened. Both were already in close confines of the room; he could've just had them frozen easily without any hassle. Why go through the sadstic plan of having Hayate suffer while deliberately goading the guardians into hunting linker cores, knowing that BoD would go berserk not long after it awakens?
darkalpha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-22, 23:44   Link #312
Mow Yun
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Age: 24
Send a message via AIM to Mow Yun
IIRC, the book will respawn itself if it is destroyed. Perhaps destroying the book itself will make it respawn somewhere.
Mow Yun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-23, 00:12   Link #313
Chaos2Frozen
She's Watching
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SG Panopticon
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkalpha View Post
Speaking of Durandal, the way Graham had intended to execute his plan to take care of Book of Darkness seemed rather dubious to me. Why wait until the point when BoD is about to go berserk before freezing the tome and its master? Graham already knew about Hayate and the tome WAY before the tome awakened. Both were already in close confines of the room; he could've just had them frozen easily without any hassle. Why go through the sadstic plan of having Hayate suffer while deliberately goading the guardians into hunting linker cores, knowing that BoD would go berserk not long after it awakens?
Well for one thing, he's not a unheartless person that would want to do something like that unless he's completely out of option.

So I would figure he's been spending all those time trying to figure out alternative salutions to the problem.

PLUS, it would take time to create Durandal.
Chaos2Frozen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-23, 00:26   Link #314
darkalpha
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: United States
I distinctly recall the Masked Men (just before they were de-masked by Chrono) mentioning that they were hoping that Nanoha and Fate would last long enough until Book of Darkness starts going out of control, at the very least.

That leads me to believe that that was the specific timing they were looking for in order for their operation to be successful. That's what makes no sense to me; why gamble everything by waiting until the very moment BoD goes berserk to put their plan into action? SO many things can go wrong...
darkalpha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-23, 00:48   Link #315
Nightengale
~Night of Gales~
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Don't hold me on it, since I am unable to rewatch A's, but I recall that a major requirement for it to succeed without it respawning itself was for Hayate to be in complete, actual administrative control of the Tome...and since it was mildly corrupted to begin with, it means the timing where it goes berserk. I think the idea was to seal it at the moment where having passed complete administration to the Meister, both of them are to be flashfrozen at the instant of awakening, before she could think or even command anything, and then later seal her in a prison dimension to prevent someone from melting the ice.

Basically, the idea is to complete it, but at the same time, to permanently put it in a situation where neither the Book or the Meister can do anything about it without destroying it, and effectively cancelling it's Auto-Revive haxx that has caused TSAB problems over the decades.

Of course, the long-term viability of it may be questionable, since Chrono did say that it might find its way out...probably, but if you consider what the "generic" method is, it actually held some weight. Technically killing one girl to save many more in the coming years.

Let's face it...had the Meister of the Tome be the same old power-hungry jackasses the Wolkenritter had served over and over for god knows how long... there would've been more deaths involved, and the happy ending of A's is quite improbable.

True, many things can go wrong...like Chrono finding out, but when even if Graham's plans fail, there's still Arc to use. It just means that 11 years later, they'll have to face another incident. Same ol' same ol'.
__________________
Night~and~Gale: ~ The Final Mythology of the Man who Defied Destiny.

The sleeping lion shall awaken beyond the depths of time, crossing ten billion lights, come to Terra.
Nightengale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-23, 04:56   Link #316
Skane
Anime Snark
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 32
Arrow

Look people, it would be to your benefit to actually WATCH the episodes where the explanations and reasons are divulged for Graham's course of action. Making asinine assumptions are not to your benefit when discussing the matter. It kills your credibility a fair bit.

1) Freezing Hayate before she merged with the Tome would be pointless because without the unison between Tome and Master, the Tome will be free to hop on to the next master. Cue massive headache because they need to search for the next spawnpoint AGAIN.

2) This is the reason why they needed the program to go "berserk", because that is when the total unison occurs. Trapped by its bond with Hayate, freezing Hayate with Durandal would have sealed the Tome as well.

3) Graham paid for Hayate's expenses because he felt guilty for what he was about to do to her.

4) The Arc-en-Ciel was not what Graham wanted to do, because it would have solved NOTHING.

5) Hayate seizing control of the administrative program and separating the Defence Program from the main program was what made the Arc-en-Ciel viable. This was not something that Graham could have anticipated.
~~~~ ~~~~

Those are some of the main points. You can find out more by watching the relevant episodes.

Cheers.
__________________
Skane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-23, 05:11   Link #317
Chaos2Frozen
She's Watching
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SG Panopticon
Age: 26
This would be out of place and most definately ruin the mood, but Skane, could I make you into a card?

[Skane the Unretortable]



(P.S - I even made up a word for you! )
Chaos2Frozen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-23, 06:55   Link #318
Nightengale
~Night of Gales~
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
This would be out of place and most definately ruin the mood, but Skane, could I make you into a card?
How about an all-effect negater instant-spell [Skaneperial Judgement?]

Jokes aside... while I am unable to rewatch the episode where the explaination were explained to due "unavoidable reasons" (( such as where I am atm )), it's fairly nice to see that my credibility...or whatever's left of it wasn't that badly killed.

One needs to understand that the "conventional" method that had been used to deal with the Tome in the past, and even in the A's timeline, before Graham's intervention, and Hayate's readministration...never solves anything. It was the "right" thing to do, but it never solves it, just delays. Hayate would've lived on had the Tome be destroyed before completion, but the Wolkies would dissapear only to reappear again, someday. And probably in the hands of an evil bastard...as usual.

And while the Hayate's incident involves very little casualty that "matters", one have to note that Hayate is probably the only Meister that was good. From the way the Wolkies spoke, it's clear 99% of their lives involved killings and book-completions.

And it wasn't just something that Graham couldn't anticipate. It was something no one could've anticipated, just by looking at previous records of such incidents.

If this was the case of when Clyde died, or even before... we would've rooted for Graham, no doubt. It was just a painful twist of fate that it had to be Hayate of all Meisters.
__________________
Night~and~Gale: ~ The Final Mythology of the Man who Defied Destiny.

The sleeping lion shall awaken beyond the depths of time, crossing ten billion lights, come to Terra.
Nightengale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-23, 08:02   Link #319
darkalpha
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
Look people, it would be to your benefit to actually WATCH the episodes where the explanations and reasons are divulged for Graham's course of action. Making asinine assumptions are not to your benefit when discussing the matter. It kills your credibility a fair bit.

1) Freezing Hayate before she merged with the Tome would be pointless because without the unison between Tome and Master, the Tome will be free to hop on to the next master. Cue massive headache because they need to search for the next spawnpoint AGAIN.

2) This is the reason why they needed the program to go "berserk", because that is when the total unison occurs. Trapped by its bond with Hayate, freezing Hayate with Durandal would have sealed the Tome as well.
THat was exactly what I wanted to know about; I'd watched the final eps several times, but it still didn't make any sense to me until you put it into context with the 'total' unison. I knew that Book of Darkness and its master had to be trapped together in order for freezing to work, but I was puzzled over the necessity of waiting until a certain timing when there were countless opportunities when both master and the tome were together, especially when the tome was awakened.

But I get it now; the frozen Hayate was basically going to be the anchor to keep the tome from escaping and finding a new master.

Quote:
3) Graham paid for Hayate's expenses because he felt guilty for what he was about to do to her.
I wasn't implying that he was a terrible person or anything like the sort, only that his methods seemed unnecessarily cruel, dragging things out when there were more than plently of opportunities to get rid of the tome for once and for all.

Of course, that was before you pointed out about the total unision, which it now makes sense to me.

Quote:
5) Hayate seizing control of the administrative program and separating the Defence Program from the main program was what made the Arc-en-Ciel viable. This was not something that Graham could have anticipated.
Arc-en-Ciel would have been used anyway, hadn't Hayate managed to seperate the Defense Program. It was either use the Durandal or Arc-en-Ciel.
darkalpha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-23, 08:52   Link #320
Chaos2Frozen
She's Watching
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SG Panopticon
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkalpha View Post

Arc-en-Ciel would have been used anyway, hadn't Hayate managed to seperate the Defense Program. It was either use the Durandal or Arc-en-Ciel.
Graham was trying not to use the Arc-en-Ciel. Had Hayate not seperate, he would have gone with Durandal.

Since Arc-en-Ciel doesn't solve the problem Permanently.
Chaos2Frozen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 23:51.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.