Lucky Star (Generic Discussion thread)

[Vexx]

I don't even want to think about a dub... but then I'm already known for my opinion of most dubs and as long as they leave the original audio track as a selection I'm happy.

[ZippyDSM]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I don't even want to think about a dub... but then I'm already known for my opinion of most dubs and as long as they leave the original audio track as a selection I'm happy.

I am not,so I am paying 50% more for sub par subbing that might have a American tilt to it and 5-7 (out of 11) level of dubbing....

(Ranma1/2 is a 10 or 11 dub,bleach is a 5,FMA is a 6,Naruto is a 4,Inuyasha is a 7 maybe a 8) now adays they market dubs to damn hard at least in the mid early 90s it was either ok or ZOMG bad.

Kira kyo maoh is a 7 or 8 it was dubed in the past 5 or 6 years I think...I just try and not deal with dubs anymore...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by AVPlaya

Why would any sane company pickup Lucky Star... very, very limited audience. In addition to be overtly otaku, this show is very, very Japanese. There's reference to something Japanese in every sentence. Even among the hardcore Western otaku very few knows that much about the real Japanese pop culture. I really don't see the audience here. I fully expect no R1 release for Lucky Star.

Comic Party, Genshiken and Pani Poni Dash were picked up, and none of them had the marketability of Lucky Star.

Originally Posted by Vexx

See how that sounds? Substitute 'japanese' for British and 'PPD' or 'L*S' for Monty Python and think about it. Personally, I've found I just have to get used to the 'outsider' meme.
1) My goodness, you can use hashi?
2) You speak Japanese very well! (even if I've just totally mangled it)
3) My favorite, if I talk about japanese local politics or recent cultural shifts and I get a completely 'deer in the headlights' look from the person because they just can't process the idea that a 'tall white guy' might know who Abe is or that the changes in the pension plan have caused divorce rates to skyrocket amongst middle-aged japanese.

Heh. The Japanese (and most of the rest of Asia, for that matter) suffer from a lot of cultural chauvinism. The truth is that anyone who's interested in such subjects can readily find out about them.

Originally Posted by AVPlaya

Oh I'm not saying non-Japanese can't enjoy L*S.. I think all of you have proven that to be untrue. All I'm saying is that the L*S producer/writers has zero expectation of L*S being understood by a non-Japanese as it was a joke aimed at a niche of a niche, and that you'll enjoy it a lot more if you're an otaku (I believe almost everyone here qualifies) who knows the culture of the real Japan.

The truth is that just about no Japanese creators have any idea what foreign markets and tastes are like. Even a short time ago, there wasn't any expectation that any show would succeed overseas, or that foreign fans even existed at all. Currently, all the signs indicate that the Japanese companies still have no clue as to what will sell in the West: often prices for shows are based on their popularity in Japan even though such figures may not have any relevance elsewhere, and Bandai's mangling of the Gundam franchise in the U.S. or Bandai Visual's bizarre pricing schemes. So far, Kadokawa seems to have read the American market the best, so the chances of them doing a good job with the release (it's almost inevitable) are pretty good.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama

That's a fairly good point actually. They've basically got the same deal as Bandai going on and can take risks like when Bandai brought Gundam too the west way back in the day when Gundam was as foreign a concept as Lucky Star is now.

That may not be the greatest example since Bandai has pretty much flubbed the handling of Gundam.

Originally Posted by AVPlaya

A show dub-less show should not cost too much to re-package and sell. Heck they can even take box art/insert verbatim. After thinking about how crazy it was for Kadokawa to release Haruhi here, they'll probably do a Lucky Star without dub. The otakus here are earning respect... who knows, maybe the next KyoAni series will throw in a bone for the gaijin fansub watchers.

I don't think so. While Lucky Star has a niche audience, it's well known enough that it probably won't be given a sub-only release. Kadokawa expended a great deal of effort on the release of Haruhi, and I expect that it will perform at least decently. With an interesting marketing campaign and fairly good exposure I don't think that it was a risky move at all.

[ZippyDSM]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Comic Party, Genshiken and Pani Poni Dash were picked up, and none of them had the marketability of Lucky Star.


Heh. The Japanese (and most of the rest of Asia, for that matter) suffer from a lot of cultural chauvinism. The truth is that anyone who's interested in such subjects can readily find out about them.


The truth is that just about no Japanese creators have any idea what foreign markets and tastes are like. Even a short time ago, there wasn't any expectation that any show would succeed overseas, or that foreign fans even existed at all. Currently, all the signs indicate that the Japanese companies still have no clue as to what will sell in the West: often prices for shows are based on their popularity in Japan even though such figures may not have any relevance elsewhere, and Bandai's mangling of the Gundam franchise in the U.S. or Bandai Visual's bizarre pricing schemes. So far, Kadokawa seems to have read the American market the best, so the chances of them doing a good job with the release (it's almost inevitable) are pretty good.


That may not be the greatest example since Bandai has pretty much flubbed the handling of Gundam.


I don't think so. While Lucky Star has a niche audience, it's well known enough that it probably won't be given a sub-only release. Kadokawa expended a great deal of effort on the release of Haruhi, and I expect that it will perform at least decently. With an interesting marketing campaign and fairly good exposure I don't think that it was a risky move at all.

Not to mention letting hacks like 4kids and Ilumination rape their IPs,its one thing to release it properly after the edits but my god they refuse to sale unedited un dubed and for me thats another strike agisnt the system, add PR/marketisim to the dubing..things get worse ><

before I forget, LS is a fun and silly show,in some ways rings of Azumanga Daioh,all they need to do is not rape the Japanese symbolisms and have ok voice acting,I think the show can be done easily by a normal or better domestic dubber,it will sale on tis own as long as they do not to "localize" it.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Risaa

Out of curiosity, what other series have been released without a dub? I don't know of any except for Card Captor Sakura, and the reason that was released dub-less is because of Cardcaptors (which was brutally chopped up and released only as a dub), and fans demanded the original series subbed.

Other than that, I can't think of any series that was released without a dub... however, I don't buy a whole lot of DVDs. (BTW, years ago I bought the entire CCS set for $11 a disk... I was very, very pleased. )

My friend has a sub only Tekkaman Blade Boxset, and I have Super Bestial Machine God Dancougar VHS tapes that are sub only (obviously only one audio track was possible). It was more common to see sub only stuff back in the VHS days.

@4Tran:
Coordinator: "Alright ship the Zeta Gundam DVD's"
Next Day
Spokesperson: "Your DVD's have shipped, but I'm afraid there's some bad news, we changed the opening theme, the show is dubtitled and er....some of the discs might be duplicates or may not even work at all, thanks for spending 200 dollars on this boxset that given it's rarity and limited edition nature should have had more effort put into it. Oh and for no real reason we changed the english cast from Mobile Suit Gundam that everybody seemed to like to cold readers, K thanks."

Just hope that ADV Films doesn't pick it up like they did PPD and give Carl Macek the dub direction. Although in all honesty it will probably go to Kadokawa/Bandai if it goes to anyone.

[ZippyDSM]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama

My friend has a sub only Tekkaman Blade Boxset, and I have Super Bestial Machine God Dancougar VHS tapes that are sub only (obviously only one audio track was possible). It was more common to see sub only stuff back in the VHS days.

@4Tran:
Coordinator: "Alright ship the Zeta Gundam DVD's"
Next Day
Spokesperson: "Your DVD's have shipped, but I'm afraid there's some bad news, we changed the opening theme, the show is dubtitled and er....some of the discs might be duplicates or may not even work at all, thanks for spending 200 dollars on this boxset that given it's rarity and limited edition nature should have had more effort put into it. Oh and for no real reason we changed the english cast from Mobile Suit Gundam that everybody seemed to like to cold readers, K thanks."

Just hope that ADV Films doesn't pick it up like they did PPD and give Carl Macek the dub direction. Although in all honesty it will probably go to Kadokawa/Bandai if it goes to anyone.

Gotta watch the box sets you get now adays so many china made DVD sets,it seems Tekkaman box set was released by media blasters,I thought the Dub was done a lot like Roin warroris,but I guess it was either to choppy ot lost in time.

Another series I can think of is macross it got a full sub release for that reason,however I can not think of a new series besides CCS that got a full sub only release.

frankly if they do a sub only release and sale it for 6-15 a disc I might start being more interested in what domestic anime is doing.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by ZippyDSM

frankly if they do a sub only release and sale it for 6-15 a disc I might start being more interested in what domestic anime is doing.

This is going further and further off-topic, I guess, but it's probably worth pointing out that what Media Blasters is doing is actually not too far off (see, for example, their release of Kashimashi at online retailers). That being said, I don't think it'll become the norm for most shows, as shows without dubs generally don't sell as well. These boards aren't a very good example, since its focus is fansubs, but in the broader market, a lot of people just don't like reading subtitles. When they do a subbed-only show today, it's basically because they don't think adding a dub will increase the amount of interested people enough to compensate for the added cost. I don't think that'd be the case with Lucky Star.

[ZippyDSM]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

This is going further and further off-topic, I guess, but it's probably worth pointing out that what Media Blasters is doing is actually not too far off (see, for example, their release of Kashimashi at online retailers). That being said, I don't think it'll become the norm for most shows, as shows without dubs generally don't sell as well. These boards aren't a very good example, since its focus is fansubs, but in the broader market, a lot of people just don't like reading subtitles. When they do a subbed-only show today, it's basically because they don't think adding a dub will increase the amount of interested people enough to compensate for the added cost. I don't think that'd be the case with Lucky Star.

Well I for one have lost total interest in 19+ "localized" discs but I am not a normal shepple LOL ,they will make more content watering the content down for the US public not for anime fans, dub ranting aside,LS has its on jenasaqua that will translate pretty good even if the dub has been "localized".

[aorta]

Originally Posted by Risaa

Out of curiosity, what other series have been released without a dub? I don't know of any except for Card Captor Sakura, and the reason that was released dub-less is because of Cardcaptors (which was brutally chopped up and released only as a dub), and fans demanded the original series subbed.

Other than that, I can't think of any series that was released without a dub... however, I don't buy a whole lot of DVDs. (BTW, years ago I bought the entire CCS set for $11 a disk... I was very, very pleased. )

Simoun will be released subtitled only. Another Media Blasters title.

[nanafan]

from my experiences some dubs are good like the dubs in fruits basket, full metal panic, fumoffu, pretear, and studio ghibli all their subs are good. i tried watching escaflowne dubbed and i switched it off, so annoying.

[DragoonKain3]

^I actually loved the Escaflowne dub for the same reason why I loved the Gundam Wing dub as they both share A LOT of VAs, but I guess to each their own. On the other hand, I didn't like FMP's dub as much; not because the VAs are bad, but because FMP isn't FMP IMO without Tomokazu Seki's "Mondai nash". ^^;

Of course, nothing still beats Steamboy as my favorite dub so far. Even though the part he plays isn't one of the main characters, Patrick Stewart just freaking rocks. I hope they sign him up for more dubbing in the near future. (Though admittedly, I'm behind in my Miyazaki DVD collection and so haven't heard him in Nausicaa yet) Also doesn't help that the red headed girl's seiyuu was too over the top that I wanted to strangle her, which is kinda odd since she's a good actress otherwise... >_>

Overall I like subs better, but that's only because from what I have seen so far, the average seiyuu has a lot more experience than the average VA. Just looking at the extreme end of the spectrum, compare how long and how many shows the likes of Hocchan, Kawasumi Ayako, Tomakazu Seki, Morikawa Toshiyuki have done to the English VA counterparts of their roles and you'll see what I mean. Heck, even this show's Hirano Aya is still considered a 'newcomer' despite the fact that she was already dubbing 5 years ago.

I however would never buy sub only DVDs. I have maybe seen 95% of shows before they're even licensed, and buying one with no-subs would be just a waste of money for me since once you think about it, its just better quality video with another take on the translations. Not to mention the fact that it doesn't 'share' better; if there's a show I have to show to my friends, it better be in english dub otherwise they wouldn't even touch it. This is especially true when kids of other families come to my house, I'd pop in something like Kaleido Star in my entertainment system and they wouldn't be able to keep up with the subtitles.


But anyone here know how much does dubbing actually costs? I find it hard to believe that having no dubs actually makes a big of a price difference. Just judging from one series I have an eye on (Macross), Animeigo's sub only DVDs are relatively the same price as ADVs.

[nanafan]

seki was awesome as sousuke! i don't have only dub anime i have both and i usually use both if i can handle the dub. sometimes the dub is terrible and you can't stand hearing it.

[Vexx]

Um.... thread topic check, eh?

(steers the out-of-control wagon back towards the oncoming train...)

[relentlessflame]

Last post on this topic, I swear, but just to answer the question...

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

^But anyone here know how much does dubbing actually costs?

The most recent estimate I've read was $10,000 per episode. You do the math.

[arias]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

I however would never buy sub only DVDs. I have maybe seen 95% of shows before they're even licensed, and buying one with no-subs would be just a waste of money for me since once you think about it, its just better quality video with another take on the translations. Not to mention the fact that it doesn't 'share' better; if there's a show I have to show to my friends, it better be in english dub otherwise they wouldn't even touch it. This is especially true when kids of other families come to my house, I'd pop in something like Kaleido Star in my entertainment system and they wouldn't be able to keep up with the subtitles.

But anyone here know how much does dubbing actually costs? I find it hard to believe that having no dubs actually makes a big of a price difference. Just judging from one series I have an eye on (Macross), Animeigo's sub only DVDs are relatively the same price as ADVs.

Dude. That is the sort of reason which will kill fansubs. If you refuse to support originals by buying even sub-only DVDs of anime you love, there is a price to be paid. Of course, everyone tries to free-ride the system. I'm saying that while you seem to have valid reasons and preferences, your sentiment is immoral. It's not just "better quality video with another take on the translations", it's ORIGINAL work licensed by the company that actually produces profit and contributes to the salary of workers involved as well as the revenue of the animation industry both in North American and in Japan.

Dubbing is obviously not that cheap. I'm not sure whether the attempt to set up a union for Voice Actors (which was 2 years ago) has finally succeeded; at that time I heard the rates were very variable. Remember that dubbing is not only pay for the voice-actors but also the renting (possible) of the recording studios, casting director, actual voice-acting director, agent fees and etc etc etc. It all adds up to be a small industry by itself, so yes, it should make a price difference.

[DragoonKain3]

^

Spoiler for for OT ness:

Reading between the lines too much?

f you refuse to support originals by buying even sub-only DVDs of anime you love, there is a price to be paid.

Well, its not MY fault if they didn't put dubs on something they would release in R1. It's their fault for not reading their market right. Customer is always right, no?

Of course, everyone tries to free-ride the system.

I don't know what you're implying, but if you ARE implying I'm trying to get a free-ride, just to let you know while my DVD collection as of now is small, I don't think my expenditures of totalling more than about $2,000 US on DVDs just this year alone (about 6 months or $300+ per month) is me getting a free-ride.

(BTW, anyone know of a reputable store selling a preferably new R1 Nadeshico box set that ships to Canada, feel free to PM. I'm still browsing, and would probably purchase it at the end of the month. I REALLY don't want to purchase it off some random guy at Amazon Marketplace, despite his supposed 'record' which for all I know can be forged)

I'm saying that while you seem to have valid reasons and preferences, your sentiment is immoral.

So me refusing to buy sub-only anime is immoral? Tell that to the majority of R1 anime dvd buyers, who are mostly dub watchers. >_>

It's not just "better quality video with another take on the translations", it's ORIGINAL work licensed by the company that actually produces profit and contributes to the salary of workers involved as well as the revenue of the animation industry both in North American and in Japan.

To tell you the truth, I really could care less if they make a profit or not. I just want a DVD that both is something I can enjoy and something I can share with my family/friends.

And as it is, dubbing is still relatively cheap. Even at $10k per eps, that only means 40-50k per volume. And how many R1 units are sold in US/Canada of a particular volume? I have no idea what the sales numbers are, but if say 10,000 units are sold in both countries, that's only $4-5 of the price of a volume.

But think about it. How much sales would they lose if they didn't have a dub for a non-niche title? 70%? 90%? Whatever it is, I bet it would be a sizeable chunk that the sales generated by putting a dub would far exceed the price of doing the dub. Which in turn would mean that despite it costs less to produce a sub-only, they would have to increase the costs to make up for the loss of sales (makes sense as to why both Macross editions are relatively same price).

Reason why that is true? If licenses can costs up to $80k per episode, why not spend an additonal $10k in order to triple, quadruple or even quintuple the sales if the show is reasonably popular?

As to why Media Blasters is foregoing its dubs on their two shows, I can hazard a guess that its because their license fees are so small that it would be more less risky to forgoe the 10k costs to dub these lesser known shows.

As for Bandai, since they pay no license fees at all, it makes eveb more sense that its more profitable to sell Wings of Rean and Galaxy Angel as they're not really THAT popular even here.

It's a different matter altogether, I think, with Right Stuff's Emma. Since it is set in the UK, they would either have to hire natural British actors or REALLY good VAs that can make a reasonable British accent. It would be a total fail otherwise, since fake accents can make or break a show. In other words, this would be much more expensive to dub than your usual anime if they wanted to do it right.

Now that begs the question, since it costs Kadokawa next to no money to license one of its own shows, would't it better for some of its lesser known shows would be more profitable as no dubs? BUT riding on the coattails of Haruhi (and to a lesser extent, KyoAni) is enough to most probably garner Lucky Star a dub once it gets licensed.

[relentlessflame]

Breaking my promise already... but I'll be brief.

Spoiler for Reply to DragoonKain3 (leads back to topic):

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Even at $10k per eps, that only means 40-50k per volume. And how many R1 units are sold in US/Canada of a particular volume? I have no idea what the sales numbers are, but if say 10,000 units are sold in both countries, that's only $4-5 of the price of a volume.

It'd have to be one really popular show for it to sell that many. Except for your major shounen properties that are on TV, I doubt if most shows sell even half that much. Something like ToHeart or Kashimashi might be lucky to sell 1,000-2,000/volume, if that many. And also, keep in mind that on a $30 MSRP DVD, maybe only $10 or $15 of that actually gets back to the production company (if that much); a lot is eaten up by distribution and mark-up.

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

But think about it. How much sales would they lose if they didn't have a dub for a non-niche title? 70%? 90%? Whatever it is, I bet it would be a sizeable chunk that the sales generated by putting a dub would far exceed the price of doing the dub.

The key here would be "non-niche", and that's what this whole discussion is about. On a title like Kashimashi or Simoun, given the cheaper price point, I bet it works out equal; you won't double or triple the sales by adding a dub. (Note: I'm not saying they're bad shows at all!) Shows that have mainstream appeal, though, are always dubbed for that reason. The real point of this conversation thread, I guess, was whether Lucky Star falls under the "niche" or "non-niche" equation. Or, in other words, will the dub pay for itself in extra sales. The answer is... ...well, time will tell.

[Skane]

In... response to this post...

[Original Lyrics]
---- ----
Kagami, Kagami, Miko-chan.
Spank me real good as much as you want.
Whip it and slap it and mark it with your arms.
Just one more of your personality's charms.

~~~~ ~~~~

For the record... the trigger that inspired this was the words "pancakes"; and no... don't ask me how it led to S&M.

Cheers.

[AVPlaya]

ano nei... let's not going to this dub vs sub thingie....

Question: why is it that kona is at least 10cm shorter than the rest of the girls, yet in the OP their legs are shown as being approximately the same length? Discuss.

[Risaa]

Originally Posted by AVPlaya

Question: why is it that kona is at least 10cm shorter than the rest of the girls, yet in the OP their legs are shown as being approximately the same length? Discuss.

lolol, I think most of us have decided to just not think about that... There's also an image floating in the image thread (go fig ) that "explains" that part; it's quite humorous.

Can't seem to find it... <_<;