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Old 2007-07-09, 17:20   Link #1
nine_tailed_kyuubi
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The forbidden sealing jutsu !

I know there has been tons of topics talking about the jutsu the fourth used to seal the kyuubi inside Naruto and we saw Sandaime using the same jutsu against 2 hokages and Orochimaru but i don't know about the next 2 points :

1. The Fourth created this jutsu ?? We heard Sandaime saying i will have to use the Fourth jutsu and it seems that the Fourth taught him that jutsu.

2.Here is the new question, when you create a jutsu you practice it thousands of times before using it like Rasengan, Chidori even any other sealing jutsu you keep practicing but how the hell are you supposed to practice with the Death God lol you can only use the jutsu once, how was Yondaime able to know that the seal is right and know what exactly would happen if he hasn't seen the death God before !!!

IMO Yondaime made a deal with the death God to give him tons of sacrifices and spare his life and if that is true then be sure Yondaime is the AL , also i think the theory about madara beung half a demon is so true now since it is not just element jutsus anymore Death Gods are here so demons as well.
Thoughts ? lol
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Old 2007-07-09, 19:07   Link #2
tatami
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i think you should loose your ideas about 4th being al it is pretty much shown that he is not.and sacrifices?you mixed 4th with orochimaru i think...
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Old 2007-07-09, 19:16   Link #3
ZGoten
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1. I donīt think, that the Fourth directly created this Jutsu...because he would have had to create a Death God before xD. I think he just found out a way to contact the Death God. Wether this counts as creating the jutsu or not....it doesnīt matter to me.

2. I think it doesnīt take much of experience or training to complete the sealing-jutsu, because the only things you have to do is summon the Death God and grab the enemy. Learning a jutsu like rasengan takes to train compressing and rotating chakra at highest level, which takes a long time to attain.......but itīs possible that Yondaime and Sandaime had to go through some kind of tests, to prove that they are worthy of making an contract with the Death God.
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Old 2007-07-09, 20:03   Link #4
UchihaJustin
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Originally Posted by ZGoten View Post
1. I donīt think, that the Fourth directly created this Jutsu...because he would have had to create a Death God before xD. I think he just found out a way to contact the Death God. Wether this counts as creating the jutsu or not....it doesnīt matter to me.
I think this point is true, how could someone create a death god... and practicing it? im sure its kinda an "ace in the hole" type thing where both hokages just put ALL THEY'RE MUH FUDGIN CHAKRA INTO USING THE JUTSU

2. im guessing that this jutsu is more of a summoning jutsu than of a sealing jutsu, although the death god does seal it. and with all sealings you would have to make some deal with the death god
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Old 2007-07-10, 05:54   Link #5
nine_tailed_kyuubi
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you still don't get my point , the death God already existed nobody created it, how did they know the death God even existed even Orochimaru didn't know and was surprised, also wether it is a sealing or any kind of jutsu you need to practice it, it is not just forming the seals, i think the seals help you to manipulate your chakra the right way regarding what jutsu you are using, if you make contact with the death God you are dead that is waht we know in Naruto, the death God wasn't walking in the street beside Yondaime and Yondaime asked him if he can contact him later and yes Yondaime is the creator of this sealing jutsu so again any thoughts ? lol
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Old 2007-07-10, 09:08   Link #6
Naruto_spartan
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True, this is something that gives you headackes, but perhaps they are going to keep the explanation for when Naruto learns the jutsu. The sealing is a great mystery, we don't know it's long term effects. However it somehow seems that the seal on Naruto is breaking, this may mean that the contract is not invulnarable or that the fox is even stronger then death itself. This, I think, will remain something to be debated for a long time.
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Old 2007-07-10, 09:49   Link #7
Sabaku Kyu
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I don't know if Shiki Fujin is a jutsu that Yondaime developed completely himself since it works more like a summoning than a normal ninjutsu. Most summonings are passed down through the generations through a scroll so Yondaime might have been the first to summon the Death God in many, many years or possibly the first ever, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was the one who originally made the pact with the shinigami. If that's the case, the same scroll used for the contract probably contained the hand seals as well as the procedure and consequences of the jutsu.

That would just leave the question of how Yondaime had knowledge of this kinjutsu when neither Oro or Sandaime knew about it. Maybe it could be that this contract was a guarded secret of his clan, since several clans seem to have their secrets.

As for practice, there's no need for it. With Rasengan, Yondaime was developing a technique that used a form of chakra manipulation never used by anyone before so time was needed to develop it. Shiki Fuujin is basically summoning, and therefore anyone who is highly skilled in summoning should be able to use it. That's why Sandaime was able to use it with no problems though obviously he couldn't have practiced it.
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Old 2007-07-10, 12:00   Link #8
nine_tailed_kyuubi
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even if it is not a jutsu sabaku Kyu summoning needs practice, we saw Naruto suffering tons of times trying to summon Gamabunta untill he finally made it and i don't think it is summoning because summoning and scrolls works for animals only but this ain't an animal it is a death God !! i still believe you cannot bring out the death God to say hi you just bring him once and sacrifice your life along with your opponent, the moment you see the death God you are dead no other way so even if it is a secret and a scroll passed for generations who is the first one to develop such a thing and how did they know a shinigami even existed, IMO Yondaime made that sealing jutsu he somehow found a way to contact the shinigami but if that is true Yondaime ain't a normal human, so get ready to hate him lol
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Old 2007-07-10, 12:08   Link #9
arbasee256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nine_tailed_kyuubi View Post
I know there has been tons of topics talking about the jutsu the fourth used to seal the kyuubi inside Naruto and we saw Sandaime using the same jutsu against 2 hokages and Orochimaru but i don't know about the next 2 points :

1. The Fourth created this jutsu ?? We heard Sandaime saying i will have to use the Fourth jutsu and it seems that the Fourth taught him that jutsu.

2.Here is the new question, when you create a jutsu you practice it thousands of times before using it like Rasengan, Chidori even any other sealing jutsu you keep practicing but how the hell are you supposed to practice with the Death God lol you can only use the jutsu once, how was Yondaime able to know that the seal is right and know what exactly would happen if he hasn't seen the death God before !!!

IMO Yondaime made a deal with the death God to give him tons of sacrifices and spare his life and if that is true then be sure Yondaime is the AL , also i think the theory about madara beung half a demon is so true now since it is not just element jutsus anymore Death Gods are here so demons as well.
Thoughts ? lol

well i not very sure this is right but you remeber he used clones as the sacerfice maby thats how he was able to pratice the jutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by nine_tailed_kyuubi View Post
I know there has been tons of topics talking about the jutsu the fourth used to seal the kyuubi inside Naruto and we saw Sandaime using the same jutsu against 2 hokages and Orochimaru but i don't know about the next 2 points :

1. The Fourth created this jutsu ?? We heard Sandaime saying i will have to use the Fourth jutsu and it seems that the Fourth taught him that jutsu.

2.Here is the new question, when you create a jutsu you practice it thousands of times before using it like Rasengan, Chidori even any other sealing jutsu you keep practicing but how the hell are you supposed to practice with the Death God lol you can only use the jutsu once, how was Yondaime able to know that the seal is right and know what exactly would happen if he hasn't seen the death God before !!!

IMO Yondaime made a deal with the death God to give him tons of sacrifices and spare his life and if that is true then be sure Yondaime is the AL , also i think the theory about madara beung half a demon is so true now since it is not just element jutsus anymore Death Gods are here so demons as well.
Thoughts ? lol
If your remeber on tv it showed him using clones as the sacerfice for the death god so i guss mabey he pratice useing clones to master that jutes i am not entierlay sure but that how i think he did do it

Last edited by Hunter; 2007-07-10 at 16:29. Reason: Do not double post
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Old 2007-07-10, 12:33   Link #10
reloaded
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Originally Posted by arbasee256 View Post
If your remeber on tv it showed him using clones as the sacerfice for the death god so i guss mabey he pratice useing clones to master that jutes i am not entierlay sure but that how i think he did do it
Sandaime made two clones of himself so the clones could trap each Hokage and Sandaime himself could trap Oro so he could pull out all three of their souls.

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Originally Posted by nine_tailed_kyuubi View Post
even if it is not a jutsu sabaku Kyu summoning needs practice, we saw Naruto suffering tons of times trying to summon Gamabunta untill he finally made it and i don't think it is summoning because summoning and scrolls works for animals only but this ain't an animal it is a death God !! i still believe you cannot bring out the death God to say hi you just bring him once and sacrifice your life along with your opponent, the moment you see the death God you are dead no other way so even if it is a secret and a scroll passed for generations who is the first one to develop such a thing and how did they know a shinigami even existed, IMO Yondaime made that sealing jutsu he somehow found a way to contact the shinigami but if that is true Yondaime ain't a normal human, so get ready to hate him lol
Im not sure that summoning the death god leads to death because Sandaime first summoned the death god and then he used the Shiki fujin technique, I beleive that the technique (should) guarantee the users death but not necassarily the summoning. The death god only started moving and put his hand through Sandaimes soul after he used Shiki Fujin, the death god was just floating around before that.
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Old 2007-07-10, 12:38   Link #11
Sandaime78
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Okay let me get this thing straight for all of you guys and end this pointless conversation.

In world of Naruto, there are one-tailed to nine-tailed beasts and everyone are flying everywhere like Crouching Tiger and Hidden Dragon. Everyone can be like Jesus and walks on waters and some have the ability to become like God and can even breathe life to a puppet or blah blah blah. While you guys are fully acknowledging that these things are going through, why bother theorycrafting HOW Yondaime had practiced this so called Shiki Fujin jutsu? Why not just accept the fact that he created this jutsu and leave it at that?
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Old 2007-07-10, 12:55   Link #12
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by nine_tailed_kyuubi View Post
even if it is not a jutsu sabaku Kyu summoning needs practice, we saw Naruto suffering tons of times trying to summon Gamabunta untill he finally made it and i don't think it is summoning because summoning and scrolls works for animals
I would call Shiki Fuujin a summoning jutsu, because it involves calling on a being from a different plane. Not exactly the same, but close enough. Naruto had to practice summoning because not only does he suck at chakra control, that was his first time learning any type of summoning jutsu. When Yondaime summoned the Death God he was already at the level where he could summon Gamabunta (and presumably any other toad he wanted). Same with Sandaime, as he could summon Enma. They already had an advance knowledge of summoning, so once they signed the contract (or whatever pact is needed for summoning) practicing the jutsu wouldn't be necessary, only the correct hand seals are needed.

Quote:
so even if it is a secret and a scroll passed for generations who is the first one to develop such a thing and how did they know a shinigami even existed, IMO Yondaime made that sealing jutsu he somehow found a way to contact the shinigami but if that is true Yondaime ain't a normal human, so get ready to hate him lol
How did someone know Manda existed before they summoned him? Or Gamabunta? We don't know if Yondaime was the very first person to make a pact with the Death God, he's just the only person known to have summoned him previous to Sandaime. And even if he was the very first, Yondaime summoning the Death God doesn't mean he performed some kind of ritual involving sacrifices, as it's not known what's needed to make a pact with the shinigami.
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Old 2007-07-10, 16:23   Link #13
nine_tailed_kyuubi
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Everyone knows animals summoning jutsu it is very common, the death God thing is not common no one ever mentioned anything about a death God before that is why it is surprising how he knew it that's all, Orochimaru in the fight didn't see the shinigami at first but when the shinigami started eating the souls Orochimaru saw it and couldn't believe his eyes that such a thing existed , Temari and everyone else can summon but no one ever said about a death God existed, even no one said that there is a forbiden jutsu where you can contact the death God that is why untill now it makes sense that Yondaime is the first to use that kind of sealing jutsu and again i disagree you sabak kyu saying that it is a summon, it is not a summon, this is a death God he is already there no one summonned him the seals are just signing the contract to give him your life and when you finish the seal he simply appears to take you and your opponent through your chakra that is why the death God wasn't able to seal Orochimaru's soul cause Sandaime was out of Chakra, the others are summons because they are animals and you order them what to do you are their master but no one is the master of the death God but what made me wonder the most is that when Sandaime was making the seals Enma recognized them and he knew what was Sandaime doing exactly !!

Also about Naruto and that he suck at chakra control yes you are right and that is why he took a long time to learn but i don't think anyone can summon Gamabunta from the first time no matter how well he can control his chakra it will need time and several trials, if just signing the scroll and forming the seal is the key then everyone would have learned to summon and not all the shinobi use summons.
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Old 2007-07-10, 16:51   Link #14
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by nine_tailed_kyuubi View Post
Everyone knows animals summoning jutsu it is very common, the death God thing is not common no one ever mentioned anything about a death God before that is why it is surprising how he knew it that's all Orochimaru in the fight didn't see the shinigami at first but when the shinigami started eating the souls Orochimaru saw it and couldn't believe his eyes that such a thing existed
Well because the Death God tends to devour the souls of those who summon him, it should be no surprise that it is not as widely known and less popular than the animal summons.

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again i disagree you sabak kyu saying that it is a summon, it is not a summon, this is a death God he is already there no one summonned him the seals are just signing the contract to give him your life
Think what you will, the shinigami to me fits the definition of a summon: he's a being on another plane that is called to fulfill a purpose. In other words, The user is not molding the shinigami from his chakra, the hand seals are just calling upon the shinigami to do something, that is my point.

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the others are summons because they are animals and you order them what to do you are their master but no one is the master of the death God but
Summoners aren't the masters of the creatures they summon (at least the boss summons)

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what made me wonder the most is that when Sandaime was making the seals Enma recognized them and he knew what was Sandaime doing exactly !!
Probably because he already knew of it. Like I said, Yondaime and Sandaime probably aren't the only people in history to have ever summoned the Death God.

Quote:
Also about Naruto and that he suck at chakra control yes you are right and that is why he took a long time to learn but i don't think anyone can summon Gamabunta from the first time no matter how well he can control his chakra it will need time and several trials, if just signing the scroll and forming the seal is the key then everyone would have learned to summon and not all the shinobi use summons.
I'm not saying anyone can use summons. Once someone becomes experienced in using powerful summons (and maybe powerful jutsu in general) like Yondaime and Sandaime were, they may have already gained the skills to perform Shiki Fujin without practice, since the jutsu may use similar principles.
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Old 2007-07-10, 17:29   Link #15
Rurik
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Sabakyu, I don’t think Sumoning the Death god is the same type of summoning jutsu itself (even after that contradictory sentence), it is true that you are calling upon the death god, but it seems to me this Jutsu is a little bit different than the average Summoning Jutsu

One of the things that were explained of Sumoning Jutsu is a contract made with your own blood with an Animal, and Shiki Fuujin miss this two elements (and even the Hand seals pattern), in the case of the death god, the contract is the seal, and instead of giving blood in exchange, you have to give your soul.

Shiki Fuujin could fall under the same class as Edo tensei, both are summoning something, but are not actual Kuchiyose no Jutsu.

BTW, Kuchiyose itself is not a hard jutsu to learn (jiraiya was expecting Naruto to do it at the first try and is is rank as C), is just that Naruto sucked, and continued to suck at it until the end of the first part of the series. Summoning Gambunta doesn’t required practice, just a truck load of Chakra.
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Old 2007-07-10, 18:14   Link #16
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
One of the things that were explained of Sumoning Jutsu is a contract made with your own blood with an Animal, and Shiki Fuujin miss this two elements (and even the Hand seals pattern), in the case of the death god, the contract is the seal, and instead of giving blood in exchange, you have to give your soul.
After Sandaime summoned the death god he did say that only those that have made a contract with the technique could see the death god (from anime). He could see the death god before he initiated the Shiki Fujin seal so im not sure about the contract for summoning the death god is your soul. It was a two step stage the first stage calling upon the death god and the second stage being the shiki fujin seal technique. Since its the user that initiates shiki fujin if the user wasnt to initiate it but was to just summon the Death god there is no guarantee the user would still have their soul taken.

I would say the death god is a summon and a unique one at that since even its appearance was different from all other summons, maybe because it was a demonic summon and not a beast one like gamabunta and co. There is still alot about summons that isnt clear.
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Old 2007-07-10, 20:47   Link #17
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post

Shiki Fuujin could fall under the same class as Edo tensei, both are summoning something, but are not actual Kuchiyose no Jutsu.
I'm aware of this. I wasn't trying to pass off Shiki Fuujin as the same thing as Kuchiyose. It's fujin so it's a sealing jutsu. But it's a sealing jutsu that involves a summoning of a being, just like the AL calling that statue for the bijuu sealing is probably a summon of sorts (and that's an ironic example since I was trying to show that the jutsu is not proof Yondaime and AL being the same person ). And summons are usually made through a pact, rather than developed by trial and error like normal jutsu, though the terms may be different from that of an animal summon, the soul in place of blood for the case of the Death God. Like reloaded said, it's not that clear.

Quote:
BTW, Kuchiyose itself is not a hard jutsu to learn (jiraiya was expecting Naruto to do it at the first try and is is rank as C), is just that Naruto sucked, and continued to suck at it until the end of the first part of the series. Summoning Gambunta doesn’t required practice, just a truck load of Chakra.
It's not stated, but I think calling a summon like Gamabunta requires greater concentration as well as a large amount of chakra and calling forth the Death God may take greater effort still. I'm reluctant to say either jutsu is that easy. However, Yondaime and Sandaime were high-level users of all justu, not just summons, so it's no wonder that their skills allowed them to use Shiki Fuujin successfully, despite only ever having one chance to actually perform it.
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Old 2007-07-11, 08:38   Link #18
Rurik
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Originally Posted by reloaded View Post
After Sandaime summoned the death god he did say that only those that have made a contract with the technique could see the death god (from anime). He could see the death god before he initiated the Shiki Fujin seal so im not sure about the contract for summoning the death god is your soul. It was a two step stage the first stage calling upon the death god and the second stage being the shiki fujin seal technique. Since its the user that initiates shiki fujin if the user wasnt to initiate it but was to just summon the Death god there is no guarantee the user would still have their soul taken.
You got my quote wrong, the contract is the seal, the soul is what you give in exchange (the blood equivalent).

And I really doubt that You can call the Shimigami just for the heck of calling him so, it seems it was even Samdaimes first time seen him.(he would had at least practice that part before)

I think that once you begin the ritual, in this case the Summoned Death god, you are forced to give him a soul, in this case, summoning him is the beginning of the contract, and sealing the soul is basically signing the contract, that’s how I see it.


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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
It's not stated, but I think calling a summon like Gamabunta requires greater concentration as well as a large amount of chakra and calling forth the Death God may take greater effort still. I'm reluctant to say either jutsu is that easy. However, Yondaime and Sandaime were high-level users of all justu, not just summons, so it's no wonder that their skills allowed them to use Shiki Fuujin successfully, despite only ever having one chance to actually perform it.
Remember that the 2 times Naruto has summoned gamabunta was out of desperation, for shinobies that doesn’t have a chakra pool like Naruto (basically all of them), they do need a specific control, but in the case of Naruto, is just calling up the sufficient Chakra to end up summoning him.

And I think the difficult part of the Jutsu is not the summon itself, but the sealing process, as its has been implied that sealing Jutsus are high skill techniques.

And there could be a way to practice The Shiki Fuujin:

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Old 2007-07-11, 09:36   Link #19
nine_tailed_kyuubi
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i agree with you Rurik
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Old 2007-07-13, 10:07   Link #20
Vizard.King
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maybe the jutsu has variants
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