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Old 2007-08-02, 19:31   Link #261
Methuselah
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Leaving the battle field was a mistake on Lelouch completely. Then again, C.C. told him to go. Oh god, I guess his ultimate plan was shattered. In a way, he is just as bad as Suzaku, but Suzaku is definitely worse and follows the wrong path.

Euphie's plan might not have worked in Lelouch's favor anyways, since Britannia is shown to be using her to their advantage. They might as well plan an assassination on her and frame the OoK. (If they were the ones planned the assassination on Lelouch's mom.)
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Old 2007-08-02, 22:23   Link #262
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I'm still up in the air about which side I'd... side with. Britannia is pretty bad. Kinda racist. Kinda like a WW2 Japan. Japan, as I now understand, was also pretty low, so I don't know if I wanna root for the JLA (yes, even though...
It's an Imperial country so yeah it would be.

Though an interesting thing to note is the SAR that Euphie came up. I remember the newscaster saying that she probably got the idea when she was in school. Makes you wonder what they teach in those britannian schools though they seem pretty lenient (None of the teachers discriminated against Suzaku; with one even going to the lengths that Suzaku was innocent and was falsey accused).

Aside from that it seems to be a 50/50. With people like Darlton who supported Suzaku and others who didn't.

Quote:
Leaving the battle field was a mistake on Lelouch completely. Then again, C.C. told him to go. Oh god, I guess his ultimate plan was shattered. In a way, he is just as bad as Suzaku, but Suzaku is definitely worse and follows the wrong path.
There's no point to his plan if Nunnally dies.

Quote:
Euphie's plan might not have worked in Lelouch's favor anyways, since Britannia is shown to be using her to their advantage. They might as well plan an assassination on her and frame the OoK. (If they were the ones planned the assassination on Lelouch's mom.)
yeah that makes sense.
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Old 2007-08-02, 22:43   Link #263
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
It's an Imperial country so yeah it would be.

Though an interesting thing to note is the SAR that Euphie came up. I remember the newscaster saying that she probably got the idea when she was in school. Makes you wonder what they teach in those britannian schools though they seem pretty lenient (None of the teachers discriminated against Suzaku; with one even going to the lengths that Suzaku was innocent and was falsey accused).

Aside from that it seems to be a 50/50. With people like Darlton who supported Suzaku and others who didn't.
I get the feeling that your average Britannian is actually a good person. There were a lot of examples throughout CG that just point to there being more good people than the racist nut-jobs. Almost how I think America really is at its core (I'm American; sue me if I like my country more than any other, *definitely* including the ones to which I've traveled).

The teachers seemed like teachers to me, even though they never really have dialogue. It was mentioned that the teacher defended Suzaku, and it's my interpretation (and feel free to disagree) from the *very*incredibly* short clip of when Suzaku and Lulu are getting lectured about missing class, that the teachers seem willing to care for their two students, one of whom is Japanese (and it's a "teacher" kind of "care"... i.e. they love ya, but they're gonna yell at ya. ). And also, teachers tend to be more liberal and accepting as it is; they kind of have to be to survive in that type of job.

And you really don't see much in the way of discrimination against the Japanese from people other than those in the military or aristocrats. I think most average Britannians are okay people.

Who knows, I could be really wrong. But I'd like to believe that not all of them are bad.

They're fed propaganda, of course, and made to believe that the "Elevens" (by the way, do any of you also, like me, keep reading that as "Elvens?" lol) are bad and disgusting... But I think a lot of people realize that really isn't the case.

The students, especially, are a good example. They were totally non-rigid about their at-first impression of having a Japanese student around. When Suzaku saved Lulu, it seemed like everyone immediately warmed up to him ('cept that TOTALLY INSANE *****, Nina. WTF happened to her that she's SOOOOOO nuts? I hope that's explained, because I'm totally befuddled by the extent of her insanity). Then we have the school festival and the students seem totally acceptive of the Japanese amongst them.

I just have to think that there is a very good sense of decency in the average Britannian.
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Old 2007-08-02, 22:54   Link #264
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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
I get the feeling that your average Britannian is actually a good person. There were a lot of examples throughout CG that just point to there being more good people than the racist nut-jobs. Almost how I think America really is at its core (I'm American; sue me if I like my country more than any other, *definitely* including the ones to which I've traveled).

The teachers seemed like teachers to me, even though they never really have dialogue. It was mentioned that the teacher defended Suzaku, and it's my interpretation (and feel free to disagree) from the *very*incredibly* short clip of when Suzaku and Lulu are getting lectured about missing class, that the teachers seem willing to care for their two students, one of whom is Japanese (and it's a "teacher" kind of "care"... i.e. they love ya, but they're gonna yell at ya. ). And also, teachers tend to be more liberal and accepting as it is; they kind of have to be to survive in that type of job.

And you really don't see much in the way of discrimination against the Japanese from people other than those in the military or aristocrats. I think most average Britannians are okay people.

Who knows, I could be really wrong. But I'd like to believe that not all of them are bad.

They're fed propaganda, of course, and made to believe that the "Elevens" (by the way, do any of you also, like me, keep reading that as "Elvens?" lol) are bad and disgusting... But I think a lot of people realize that really isn't the case.

The students, especially, are a good example. They were totally non-rigid about their at-first impression of having a Japanese student around. When Suzaku saved Lulu, it seemed like everyone immediately warmed up to him ('cept that TOTALLY INSANE *****, Nina. WTF happened to her that she's SOOOOOO nuts? I hope that's explained, because I'm totally befuddled by the extent of her insanity). Then we have the school festival and the students seem totally acceptive of the Japanese amongst them.

I just have to think that there is a very good sense of decency in the average Britannian.
I think we can stereotype most Britannians as what Lelouch acted like with Kallen to fool her. People who may mean well, but bow their heads and simply let whats happening happen because they really can't do much. They are probably good people.
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Old 2007-08-02, 22:58   Link #265
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I mostly disagree with your statement, Jagdpanther

Crazy bitch Nina aside, there have been plenty of examples of brittanians discriminating against elevens. Those two students who spray painted suzaku's shirt with profanity, or how about those six delinquents that beat the crap out of the hot dog vendor? From the way lulu spoke about it to karen it seemed as if its almost expected that an eleven working within the settlements are gonna get the shit kicked out of them every once in a while. It just seems to get worse if the brittanian is royalty, but even among the regular joes there are extreme racists like nina.

I dont think their fed propaganda to make them hate elevens because the empire publicly(though not really) tell the people that they should work together with honorary britannians.

Also remember that at first before lelouch asked for suzaku to be let into the student council everyone would shut up the minute that suzaku walked into the room, and he didnt have a single friend among the students. I think many(possibly most) brittanians discriminate against elevens to varying degrees.

Of course that doesnt mean that the japanese dont do it too in the show against the brittanians.
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Old 2007-08-02, 23:01   Link #266
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I mostly disagree with your statement, Jagdpanther

Crazy bitch Nina aside, there have been plenty of examples of brittanians discriminating against elevens. Those two students who spray painted suzaku's shirt with profanity, or how about those six delinquents that beat the crap out of the hot dog vendor? From the way lulu spoke about it to karen it seemed as if its almost expected that an eleven working within the settlements are gonna get the shit kicked out of them every once in a while. It just seems to get worse if the brittanian is royalty, but even among the regular joes there are extreme racists like nina.

I dont think their fed propaganda to make them hate elevens because the empire publicly(though not really) tell the people that they should work together with honorary britannians.

Also remember that at first before lelouch asked for suzaku to be let into the student council everyone would shut up the minute that suzaku walked into the room, and he didnt have a single friend among the students. I think many(possibly most) brittanians discriminate against elevens to varying degrees.

Of course that doesnt mean that the japanese dont do it too in the show against the brittanians.
That is called fear. He is an outsider and is therefore the source of uncertainty in an environment that was mostly calm and displaced from the war. Bringing him in, brought in doubt and fear. People act violently when frightened, survival instinct.
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Old 2007-08-02, 23:01   Link #267
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
I think we can stereotype most Britannians as what Lelouch acted like with Kallen to fool her. People who may mean well, but bow their heads and simply let whats happening happen because they really can't do much. They are probably good people.
True. They're probably scared ****less of the secret police, and rightfully so.

Your average person doesn't have a grasp of resistance.... Which leads me to my next point:

Why in the hell did Britannia suddenly become so bad, tactically speaking?

Okay, let me rephrase that...

GIVEN that they are a "bad guy" in the anime and GIVEN that this IS an anime... Why did they go from dominant to a bunch of school kids so quickly?

Yes, Lulu is damn smart... And is the next Kasparov... But it seems to me that him being a tactical GENIUS is a Hero Plot Device at its finest. I've heard the Chess relating to a Battle thing so many times, but Gawd, this this is ridiculous. He's a student for crissake. And suddenly he's out-thinking the Britannian military, which, up to now, has been subjugating the entire world with relative ease. Is it just me or does anyone else thinks that's kinda odd that Lulu can beat anyone's plan with seeming ease (despite the obvious impossibilities...... e.g. the Narita Ridge episodes. Jesus. H. Christ.)?

Or........ Conversely......

Should I just not raise this question and tell myself, "It's anime. Logic does not apply"?

>_>

Prolly the latter.
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Old 2007-08-02, 23:06   Link #268
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Originally Posted by Ky-66 View Post
I mostly disagree with your statement, Jagdpanther
Okay, I am gonna address this first:

I seriously thought I had said that statement about myself.

I saw Var's post above my last one, where he quotes a big block, and only says a sentence or two, and that was also how he replied to my post about Britannians being, mostly, good people.

So I assumed your post was actually my initial post and was very confused. "Did I really just address myself in third person and... disagree with... myself?"

>_>

<_<

This has no point or purpose. Moving along...
Quote:
Crazy bitch Nina aside, there have been plenty of examples of brittanians discriminating against elevens. Those two students who spray painted suzaku's shirt with profanity, or how about those six delinquents that beat the crap out of the hot dog vendor? From the way lulu spoke about it to karen it seemed as if its almost expected that an eleven working within the settlements are gonna get the shit kicked out of them every once in a while. It just seems to get worse if the brittanian is royalty, but even among the regular joes there are extreme racists like nina.
My response to this is a total cop-out and impossible to prove:

Like they're really gonna show much in the way of Britannians being nice and cozy with Elevens because we all know how much more entertaining and dramatic it is to have them discriminating. >_>

Yeah. I am too lazy right now to think of something good.
Quote:
I dont think their fed propaganda to make them hate elevens because the empire publicly(though not really) tell the people that they should work together with honorary britannians.

Also remember that at first before lelouch asked for suzaku to be let into the student council everyone would shut up the minute that suzaku walked into the room, and he didnt have a single friend among the students. I think many(possibly most) brittanians discriminate against elevens to varying degrees.
I think everyone discriminates to a degree, so I take that into account when I write. Doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't good people in the world. Just some are.... more good than others? >_>
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Old 2007-08-02, 23:06   Link #269
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True. They're probably scared ****less of the secret police, and rightfully so.

Your average person doesn't have a grasp of resistance.... Which leads me to my next point:

Why in the hell did Britannia suddenly become so bad, tactically speaking?

Okay, let me rephrase that...

GIVEN that they are a "bad guy" in the anime and GIVEN that this IS an anime... Why did they go from dominant to a bunch of school kids so quickly?

Yes, Lulu is damn smart... And is the next Kasparov... But it seems to me that him being a tactical GENIUS is a Hero Plot Device at its finest. I've heard the Chess relating to a Battle thing so many times, but Gawd, this this is ridiculous. He's a student for crissake. And suddenly he's out-thinking the Britannian military, which, up to now, has been subjugating the entire world with relative ease. Is it just me or does anyone else thinks that's kinda odd that Lulu can beat anyone's plan with seeming ease (despite the obvious impossibilities...... e.g. the Narita Ridge episodes. Jesus. H. Christ.)?

Or........ Conversely......

Should I just not raise this question and tell myself, "It's anime. Logic does not apply"?

>_>

Prolly the latter.
Well, most of his battles that he won without Geass were won because he knows the other style of play. Clovis was an easy victory because he knows how Clovis thinks. After he was beaten by Cornelia he adjusted and countered. Britannia is, if anything, simply underestimating Lelouch or thinks like Clovis, that numbers win.

Geass then serves as both Heroic plot device and devil's influence. It does both good and bad for Lelouch, making it much less gimicky than other plot devices (beam spam, Suzaku) we've seen in the past.
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Old 2007-08-02, 23:17   Link #270
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Well, most of his battles that he won without Geass were won because he knows the other style of play. Clovis was an easy victory because he knows how Clovis thinks. After he was beaten by Cornelia he adjusted and countered. Britannia is, if anything, simply underestimating Lelouch or thinks like Clovis, that numbers win.
There's a difference between knowing style of play and being able to adjust.

I'd be very disappointed if the Britannia military commanders were so moronic as to really not understand that war is a fluid, ever-changing thing and that doing the same thing repeatedly is, in fact, death.

Battles are different from each other, and in order to win, regardless of your superiority in various fields (numbers, technology, etc.), you have to be able to go with the flow...

Britannia seems very... Okay, I think if I say this I am going to answer my own question so I'm gonna shut up now about this and sulk for a bit.

Maybe not.

Anyway, yeah, they are underestimating Lulu, I acknowledge that, but even so. They have to be using something in the way of Soviet military doctrine at the very least, which does not allow field commanders to act on initiative as the battle changes around them. It's just fishy to me that the Britannians seem totally incapable of beating a high school student who, while a genius at chess, is... just that. A student. Not a battle-hardened commander. Which, I guess, now he is... But... that's not my point. >_>
Quote:
Geass then serves as both Heroic plot device and devil's influence. It does both good and bad for Lelouch, making it much less gimicky than other plot devices (beam spam, Suzaku) we've seen in the past.
Oh, beam spam. ^_^

Like the Gawain isn't beam spam? lol
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Old 2007-08-02, 23:22   Link #271
Ky-66
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Well, most of his battles that he won without Geass were won because he knows the other style of play. Clovis was an easy victory because he knows how Clovis thinks. After he was beaten by Cornelia he adjusted and countered. Britannia is, if anything, simply underestimating Lelouch or thinks like Clovis, that numbers win.

Geass then serves as both Heroic plot device and devil's influence. It does both good and bad for Lelouch, making it much less gimicky than other plot devices (beam spam, Suzaku) we've seen in the past.
i agree.


lelouch isnt a military genius like toudou. however hes still extremelly smart and knows how to plan ahead. however even that wouldnt be enough, thats why whenever he wins hes got an advantage in either information or geass.(IFF signal, information from diethard, knowing that euphie is the only really important person to cornelia, etc.)


Quote:
So I assumed your post was actually my initial post and was very confused. "Did I really just address myself in third person and... disagree with... myself?"

>_>

<_<

This has no point or purpose. Moving along...
nope, but it did make me laugh

Quote:
My response to this is a total cop-out and impossible to prove:
i agree, but since you admitted to it i wont hold it against you. I've had moments where ive done the same thing.
Quote:
That is called fear. He is an outsider and is therefore the source of uncertainty in an environment that was mostly calm and displaced from the war. Bringing him in, brought in doubt and fear. People act violently when frightened, survival instinct.
I agree with you that many students did not interact with suzaku due to fear but that doesnt adress those two delinquents who wrote racist remarks on suzakus shirt(they certainly dont seem afraid) or those who beat up the hot dog vendor...

i guess theres really not enough information to come to a definite conclusions on this topic though...

EDIT-
Quote:
There's a difference between knowing style of play and being able to adjust.

I'd be very disappointed if the Britannia military commanders were so moronic as to really not understand that war is a fluid, ever-changing thing and that doing the same thing repeatedly is, in fact, death.

Battles are different from each other, and in order to win, regardless of your superiority in various fields (numbers, technology, etc.), you have to be able to go with the flow...

Britannia seems very... Okay, I think if I say this I am going to answer my own question so I'm gonna shut up now about this and sulk for a bit.

Maybe not.

Anyway, yeah, they are underestimating Lulu, I acknowledge that, but even so. They have to be using something in the way of Soviet military doctrine at the very least, which does not allow field commanders to act on initiative as the battle changes around them. It's just fishy to me that the Britannians seem totally incapable of beating a high school student who, while a genius at chess, is... just that. A student. Not a battle-hardened commander. Which, I guess, now he is... But... that's not my point. >_>
Also in every single battle except for the last few they thought they were fighting against terrorists, not a full-fledged army... i think that contitutes greatly underestimating the enemy. Also OoBK has a tendency to show up completely unexpected due to lelouchs information and geass advantage. It doesnt matter if brittania has great generals if all they can do is counter and cant make a decisive strike then they can achieve little. Even so almost all of lelouchs battles have been close and hard fought on both sides, id give the brittanians credit for that.
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Old 2007-08-02, 23:22   Link #272
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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
Like the Gawain isn't beam spam? lol
gawain is gawain
suzaku haxx /hack -akagodmod321
its unfair that gawain always loses to lancelot
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Old 2007-08-02, 23:23   Link #273
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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
There's a difference between knowing style of play and being able to adjust.

I'd be very disappointed if the Britannia military commanders were so moronic as to really not understand that war is a fluid, ever-changing thing and that doing the same thing repeatedly is, in fact, death.

Battles are different from each other, and in order to win, regardless of your superiority in various fields (numbers, technology, etc.), you have to be able to go with the flow...

Britannia seems very... Okay, I think if I say this I am going to answer my own question so I'm gonna shut up now about this and sulk for a bit.

Maybe not.

Anyway, yeah, they are underestimating Lulu, I acknowledge that, but even so. They have to be using something in the way of Soviet military doctrine at the very least, which does not allow field commanders to a
ct on initiative as the battle changes around them. It's just fishy to me that the Britannians seem totally incapable of beating a high school student who, while a genius at chess, is... just that. A student. Not a battle-hardened commander. Which, I guess, now he is... But... that's not my point. >_>

Oh, beam spam. ^_^

Like the Gawain isn't beam spam? lol
Gawain is a Hadron cannon, that sounds cooler than Beam spam so is therefore better (its got atomic collisions too! making it even more awesome!) .

I agree that the way Britannia is portray, they are all military morons. Well excpet Schneiser (eh... no idea how his name was spelled), he's probably the only one we've seen to do exactly what needs to be done to win... kill Zero with a few casualties.

Though I suppose they can't really go too indept on strategy or every other episode would be 20 minutes of strategic discussion. So we really don't know whats going on in their minds, though I'd say that they do readily change strategies as the battle moves on.

Gawain losses because its too big and slow to counter a fast moving target with a shield that seems to stop everything. Gawain vs Lancelot is like a mortar unit against a commando unit.
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Old 2007-08-02, 23:50   Link #274
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Gawain is a Hadron cannon, that sounds cooler than Beam spam so is therefore better (its got atomic collisions too! making it even more awesome!) .
My personal favorite is the microwave thingy on the Guren Mk. II that fries everything but the pilot. LOL
Quote:
Though I suppose they can't really go too indept on strategy or every other episode would be 20 minutes of strategic discussion. So we really don't know whats going on in their minds, though I'd say that they do readily change strategies as the battle moves on.
True enough. It wouldn't really appeal to anyone but me and a few others. And it's not good to see the hero get his ass kicked repeatedly because he no longer has his plot devices.
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Old 2007-08-02, 23:52   Link #275
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My personal favorite is the microwave thingy on the Guren Mk. II that fries everything but the pilot. LOL

True enough. It wouldn't really appeal to anyone but me and a few others. And it's not good to see the hero get his ass kicked repeatedly because he no longer has his plot devices.
Would make for an interesting new anime where the hero loses because he is human .

If they really wanted they could always add a little more depth to the strategy element by cutting out from the action, but then everyone wants to see giant robots fight. Not know why they are doing it.
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Old 2007-08-02, 23:56   Link #276
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Would make for an interesting new anime where the hero loses because he is human .
Ep. 1 lulu gets shot because CC didnt give him geass... the end.
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Old 2007-08-03, 00:04   Link #277
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Ep. 1 lulu gets shot because CC didnt give him geass... the end.
Hahahahahaha... I'd watch it.
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Old 2007-08-03, 00:06   Link #278
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Hahahahahaha... I'd watch it.
It was brief and too the point, sucks to be human in anime.
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Old 2007-08-03, 00:08   Link #279
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Ne...

We've kind of gotten away from the whole "Q&A thread" thing haven't we (it was even announced on the last post of the previous page ).
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Old 2007-08-03, 00:12   Link #280
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Ne...

We've kind of gotten away from the whole "Q&A thread" thing haven't we (it was even announced on the last post of the previous page ).
Er, maybe?

I think most of this has been related to my previous question.
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