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Old 2007-08-03, 00:01   Link #1001
Ky-66
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My problem with Suzaku never was the fact that he wanted to change Britannia from within. I knew that was never going to work, even if the S.A.Z. had gone ahead it would have just been a way to control the Japanese. My problem was with his continuous speeches that he knew what justice was, and how the OoBK was simply satisfying themselves even after they rescued him from the trial and the hostages from the hotel jacking incident. Then he gave that speech after Shirley's dad's funeral, cursing the OoBK again. All the while being a murderer himself, after he experiences pain at the loss of Euphemia reverts back to how he really is even after his speeches.
i dont have a problem with his goals,(change from within is good too) just the way he tries to achieve them(peace and equality by serving in the military...nice one suzaku). Combine that with his speeches and hes just a hypocrite. Honestly I like him much better after 24/25 at least hes got motivation and doesnt kid himself anymore hes going out to the battlefield to kill people to get his way... sort of like lulu.
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Old 2007-08-03, 00:08   Link #1002
4Tran
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Neither Lelouch nor Suzaku are exactly angels. Lelouch is acting overwhelmingly for selfish purposes and most of the good he does is largely either incidental or done to further his own position. While he will act against his own interest in a few cases, it's mostly done to protect those close to him; actions that are consistent with how selfish people often act. The one exception to this was when Lelouch decided to accept Euphemia's offer.

Suzuka was largely acting for selfless reasons, but his naivety reduced most of efforts to uselessness. While I tend to like his character archetype more than Lelouch's, his inability to critically examine both his role and how his dreams can come into fruition hurt his character. The reduction of Suzaku's goal from an equitable peace to simple revenge is a further turn-off. However, in the latter, Lelouch has largely been acting purely as an enemy, so I think that Suzaku's desire to bring him down is largely justified.

At this point, the only truly admirable character is Cornelia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ky-66
dont have a problem with his goals,(change from within is good too) just the way he tries to achieve them(peace and equality by serving in the military...nice one suzaku).
Actually, Suzaku's joining the Britannian military as a means to attain an equitable peace isn't altogether a bad idea. There's basically two ways to peacefully remove an occupying power - either convince them that it's a bad idea through a mass movement (i.e. Ghandi and India), or to do it through sheer political inertia (i.e. Canada and Australia). There aren't a whole lot of ways for Elevens to gain political power, but successful military service is definitely one of them. Charismatic leaders who gain enough political power through their military service to enact change are extremely common throughout history. The problem with Suzaku is that he had no plan for how to go about achieving any of that.
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Old 2007-08-03, 00:12   Link #1003
Blue_Mercy
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
At this point, the only truly admirable character is Cornelia.
Cornelia lost my respect when she butchered the Saitama ghetto just to draw out Zero.

Quote:
Neither Lelouch nor Suzaku are exactly angels. Lelouch is acting overwhelmingly for selfish purposes and most of the good he does is largely either incidental or done to further his own position. While he will act against his own interest in a few cases, it's mostly done to protect those close to him; actions that are consistent with how selfish people often act. The one exception to this was when Lelouch decided to accept Euphemia's offer.
I'm not defending Lelouch but pretty much everyone's actions in the show have been selfish except for Euphemia, who is now on that beach with Clovis in the afterlife.
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Old 2007-08-03, 00:33   Link #1004
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy View Post
Cornelia lost my respect when she butchered the Saitama ghetto just to draw out Zero.
Saitama is just a more obviously wrong application of the tactics used by the Americans at Fallujah: trap the insurgents into a tight geographical area, and then annihilate everyone within it. While it's not a particularly nice thing to do, it's a solid military tactic. Given that the reason for such a harsh response was the death of her brother, I think that it's at least partially justifiable.

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I'm not defending Lelouch but pretty much everyone's actions in the show have been selfish except for Euphemia, who is now on that beach with Clovis in the afterlife.
Lelouch has been pretty much the most selfish of the important characters in the entire show.
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Old 2007-08-03, 01:01   Link #1005
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We can imagine Suzaku as a Black in the US around 170 years ago (20 years before the election-the end of the slavery-note that then the Black had support from some political actors already, and many Blacks were not treated as slave at that time), or an Indian in India 200 years ago. So without rebellions, if:

- More and much more Suzaku appear
- More and much more Euphie appear
- A/some huge impact(s) from inside/outside that urge the empire to change (for example: huge scientific/economic innovation, large-scale war with other nations)

Then in 30-50 years later, Suzaku may be able to see what he wants - a change in the way Britainia treat No. However, No are still No, and Britainian are still superior. But something similar to the "U.S Civil War" may occur, with the victory belongs to who-knows side.

If the pro-No wins, in 150-200 years later, maybe equality and/or independence will be gained.

The problem is, if Suzaku was a politician (like Gandhi of India), then people would admire him. But even if he climbes into a high ranked solder, most of the ppl who choose to fight peacefully cannot see him as their leader or part of the "initiators" as however you see, he is still a traitor who fire at his ppl (if you choose to change from within, normally it should be a peaceful way- which means - in the middle, but Suzaku acted too much pro-Britainian) I know Suzaku does not really want the fame so in this aspect, I feel pity for him.


Sadly, however you see, Lulu is still a murderer who acts mostly for his selfish cause

And Suzaku is a murderer and a traitor, and selfish in his own way


Foretunately, I dont care if some char is a murderer, a traitor or whatever. If I were a Japanese, I would do exactly what they did: support any side that I think is the best for me at one time. Lulu uses the Japanese, but they uses him as well so it's fine however I see.

If you want a protagonist as a hero char in an action anime, then Lulu may make you disappointed because he is too evil for you. But if you want a protagonist who is more human in a political/epic anime, I guess he may suit your taste.

Anyway, no Great King, Great Empiror, Great President, Great General. etc., i.e Great Hero in our human history was an innocent person. Because if you are too good, you die before you can reach the power. However, I believe Lulu is still too naive for a "Great" then

Last edited by mangastuff; 2007-08-03 at 01:12.
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Old 2007-08-03, 01:27   Link #1006
4Tran
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Originally Posted by mangastuff View Post
And Suzaku is a murderer and a traitor
While Suzaku certainly murdered his father, why do you think he's a traitor? Would it be because the death of the Prime Minister finished Japan's resistance or because he joined the Britannian military? I've already explained the latter, but the former is similar to what the Japanese peace faction did at the end of World War II, and I don't think that anyone would reasonably see them as traitors.

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Originally Posted by mangastuff View Post
If you want a protagonist as a hero char in an action anime, then Lulu may make you disappointed because he is too evil for you. But if you want a protagonist who is more human in a political/epic anime, I guess he may suit your taste.
To be more selfish isn't necessarily the same thing as being more human. In his own way, Lelouch is every bit as much of an ideologue as Suzaku - it's mostly that his means are more ruthless.

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Originally Posted by mangastuff View Post
Anyway, no Great King, Great Empiror, Great President, Great General. etc., i.e Great Hero in our human history is an innocent person. Because if you are too good, you die before you can reach the power. However, I believe Lulu is still too naive for a "Great" then
I don't think that you're right. Lelouch isn't great, but that's more because he has trouble building on his successes, and because he's been over reliant on the incompetence of his enemies. Moreover, Lelouch hasn't built up a good command cadre, and as a result, he only seems capable of maintaining command over his minions if he's in the immediate vicinity - the events of 25 graphically illustrate that.

While ruthlessness is a key component for "Greatness", it's actually the ability to achieve (or sometimes to fail spectacularly!) that is the main qualifier. Lelouch still isn't there yet. In any case, striving for "Greatness" isn't much of an excuse for being a total jerk.
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Old 2007-08-03, 03:25   Link #1007
evil|plushie
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Saitama is just a more obviously wrong application of the tactics used by the Americans at Fallujah: trap the insurgents into a tight geographical area, and then annihilate everyone within it. While it's not a particularly nice thing to do, it's a solid military tactic. Given that the reason for such a harsh response was the death of her brother, I think that it's at least partially justifiable.
So let me get this straight, killing everyone in an area, innocents and terrorists alike so as to draw out one person who murdered a sibling = justified military strategy but fighting against an oppressive dictatorship so as to gain a world for a weaker sibling and then using tactics to achieve that = not justified? Hahahahahahah
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Old 2007-08-03, 06:18   Link #1008
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Neither Lelouch nor Suzaku are exactly angels. Lelouch is acting overwhelmingly for selfish purposes and most of the good he does is largely either incidental or done to further his own position. While he will act against his own interest in a few cases, it's mostly done to protect those close to him; actions that are consistent with how selfish people often act. The one exception to this was when Lelouch decided to accept Euphemia's offer.
Not really "selfish", if you put yourself in his shoes and think about it that way.

1)Your mother has been killed.
2)Your father doesn't give a shit.
3)You see links between 1 & 2.
4)Your beloved sister is paralyzed and is blind due to 1).
5)The ruler of the country is harsh, more towards racism (Like the apartheid in South Africa), massacres are happening like its normal.
6)Due to Suzaku's influence, because he was Lelouch's childhood friend, his own family took down his friends country, and his family doesn't care about him. It's kinda obvious you would also want to avenge your friend.

Of course, what Lelouch is saying 1),2),3),4) are the main reasons he decides to be so "selfish" and 5),6) might be the reasons to cover-up, but still 5),6) are still pretty good reasons, its a fair deal, he uses Japan to defeat Brittania and he gets what he wants, also at the same time Japan freed themselves. I see no problem with that. Even so, LASTLY - he got the power of Geass! The power to change everything, who wouldn't do it? Your mother has been murdered, your sister is hurt. Just those two reasons would make me kill to avenge. Wouldn't you guys do too?
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Old 2007-08-03, 06:54   Link #1009
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
So let me get this straight, killing everyone in an area, innocents and terrorists alike so as to draw out one person who murdered a sibling = justified military strategy but fighting against an oppressive dictatorship so as to gain a world for a weaker sibling and then using tactics to achieve that = not justified? Hahahahahahah
I am just surprised that I agreed with 4Tran on so many issues in the Gundam forums, yet here I have a view of Lulu that is so different from his.

Well, I think I will count on evilplushie to support my views on Lulu; I haven't yet seen the latest episodes, and as such feel unfit to make compelling arguments.
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Old 2007-08-03, 07:44   Link #1010
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie
So let me get this straight, killing everyone in an area, innocents and terrorists alike so as to draw out one person who murdered a sibling = justified military strategy
I said that it's a "solid military tactic", not "strategy", but you're pretty much correct. When a guerilla force protects itself by hiding within a civilian population, they are relying on their occupiers to leave this population alone for protection. However, the occupier doesn't have to cooperate. As I pointed out earlier, it's not all that different from the Battle of Fallujah; the main difference being that the Britannian effort was more effective and that their troops were much more willing to fire upon civilians. The fact that it was also to avenge Clovis was just an additional justification.

Had Cornelia actually given any orders for her troops to specifically target and slaughter civilians, then that would be one thing. However, the massacres were mostly spontaneous actions on the part of her troops, so they can't be completely attributed to her. The only thing that can be blamed on her was that she should have known that they would exceed their orders.

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Originally Posted by evil|plushie
but fighting against an oppressive dictatorship so as to gain a world for a weaker sibling and then using tactics to achieve that = not justified?
You've misread my arguments. Nowhere in my posts did I say that Lelouch wasn't justified in trying to overthrow Britannia; I merely said that he was acting for selfish reasons.

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Originally Posted by Jaka
Even so, LASTLY - he got the power of Geass! The power to change everything, who wouldn't do it? Your mother has been murdered, your sister is hurt. Just those two reasons would make me kill to avenge.
That is precisely what it means to act selfishly: to act out of one's personal interest when much greater events are at hand; and to place those interests ahead of any greater purpose.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Well, I think I will count on evilplushie to support my views on Lulu; I haven't yet seen the latest episodes, and as such feel unfit to make compelling arguments.
Feel free to join in. There isn't much here that's taken from the last couple of episodes.
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Old 2007-08-03, 07:51   Link #1011
evil|plushie
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Well, I think I will count on evilplushie to support my views on Lulu; I haven't yet seen the latest episodes, and as such feel unfit to make compelling arguments.
Ugh, burden...suddenly...so heavy...

And yes, Lelouch can be said to be acting out of selfish reasons. But in all honesty, who within the CG universe doesnt?

edit: And I disagree that the sudden slaughter of 'civilians' was a spontaneous action by her troops. Keep in mind she was in charge and commanding them there. And that she wanted a repeat of Shinjuku in which, you guessed it, everyone in the area; civvy or otherwise, was ordered to be killed.
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Old 2007-08-03, 07:52   Link #1012
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Originally Posted by Jaka View Post

1)Your mother has been killed.
2)Your father doesn't give a shit.
3)You see links between 1 & 2.
4)Your beloved sister is paralyzed and is blind due to 1).
5)The ruler of the country is harsh, more towards racism (Like the apartheid in South Africa), massacres are happening like its normal.
6)Due to Suzaku's influence, because he was Lelouch's childhood friend, his own family took down his friends country, and his family doesn't care about him. It's kinda obvious you would also want to avenge your friend.
You forgot to add..

7.) Lelouch was stripped off his title and family, along with his crippled sister as well as being sent to enemy territory as political hostages. *And because of that, Lelouch had to take care of her 6(?) year old sister by himself and risks getting beat up by people outside. (Which he has been beaten.)
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Old 2007-08-03, 08:07   Link #1013
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Who says Lulu's mothers didn't deserve what she got? A KF pilot that rose to an empress, blood must have flown in rivers. But that doesn't matter , the only important question is WHO killed her.


Who says Japan deserves to be liberated? We only know that Brittania is supposed to be evil but we kwno nothing about Japan. They could've only gotten a taste of their own medicine and then 7 years of oppression is nothing.
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Old 2007-08-03, 08:12   Link #1014
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Who says Lulu's mothers didn't deserve what she got? A KF pilot that rose to an empress, blood must have flown in rivers. But that doesn't matter , the only important question is WHO killed her.


Who says Japan deserves to be liberated? We only know that Brittania is supposed to be evil but we kwno nothing about Japan. They could've only gotten a taste of their own medicine and then 7 years of oppression is nothing.
Your view certainly has valid points. Unfortunately an indifferent view of morality also means you would automatically lose the ability to defend or condemn any-one's actions. Thus, if we can't claim Japan is worth freeing, then we can't claim Japan shouldn't be freed either.

Lack of information does not support any side of argument; it only makes arguments more difficult to solve.
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Old 2007-08-03, 08:40   Link #1015
4Tran
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie
And yes, Lelouch can be said to be acting out of selfish reasons. But in all honesty, who within the CG universe doesnt?
True, but as I pointed out earlier, Lelouch has been more selfish than just about anyone else, so it's not much of an argument in his favour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie
edit: And I disagree that the sudden slaughter of 'civilians' was a spontaneous action by her troops. Keep in mind she was in charge and commanding them there. And that she wanted a repeat of Shinjuku in which, you guessed it, everyone in the area; civvy or otherwise, was ordered to be killed.
And until you can show how Cornelia ordered everyone killed in Saitama, my point stands. Just because she wanted to create a similar situation to Shinjuku doesn't automatically mean that she wanted it to be identical in every respect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majek
Who says Japan deserves to be liberated? We only know that Brittania is supposed to be evil but we kwno nothing about Japan. They could've only gotten a taste of their own medicine and then 7 years of oppression is nothing.
I don't think that this is much of an argument. Even if Japan had been responsible for all sorts of atrocities, it is a very different political entity under occupation from when it was independent. There's no particular reason for people unrelated to a crime to suffer as a penalty for that crime. And without any reason to think that independent Japan acted maliciously, the default assumption is that it didn't.

In any case, it's still natural for the Japanese to fight for a better peace for themselves - the operative question is whether they do so through the use of violence or not. If their choice was violence, then it's equally natural for the Britannians to forcefully crush any uprising.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Lack of information does not support any side of argument; it only makes arguments more difficult to solve.
That isn't quite true. The lack of information suggests that the argument in the positive is fallacious, and that the default condition is correct.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Methuselah
7.) Lelouch was stripped off his title and family, along with his crippled sister as well as being sent to enemy territory as political hostages. *And because of that, Lelouch had to take care of her 6(?) year old sister by himself and risks getting beat up by people outside. (Which he has been beaten.)
That's probably untrue. A prince that truly had his title stripped from him would be useless as a political hostage. It would be more accurate to say that the Emperor regarded him as expendable when he decided to invade Japan. However, that's a risk common to all hostages.
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Last edited by 4Tran; 2007-08-03 at 08:59.
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Old 2007-08-03, 08:59   Link #1016
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"the fact that you exist is an error"

Do end justify the means?
frankly, I think saying lelouch existance is an error isnt a good enough reason for killing him and to go rape nunally.. -_-........
suzaku, always true to himself.
And he is a fucking two timer! with 2 princess nonetheless.
First youffie dies and he plays the upset hero but we now know the true reason, goal of suzaku! It was all along nunnaly.
He says it himself:
he always knew it was lelouch but he "lied to himself"... yeah right..
and before shooting lelouch he says "nunnaly will be my (wife? slave?toy?victim???)..."
And in the end he almost says nothing about euphemia, the supposed reason for his rampage.....

I knew it, that something wasnt right with suzaku!

erf
I ll stop my ranting, but I hope suzaku will REALLY suffer. After spouting justice bullshit he says something even stupider. "The fact you exist is an error"
Damn, it should be forbidden to say such bullshit

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Old 2007-08-03, 09:01   Link #1017
Majek
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Your view certainly has valid points. Unfortunately an indifferent view of morality also means you would automatically lose the ability to defend or condemn any-one's actions. Thus, if we can't claim Japan is worth freeing, then we can't claim Japan shouldn't be freed either.

Lack of information does not support any side of argument; it only makes arguments more difficult to solve.
Yeah and the precisely why i stay out of the "debates" here most the time.
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Old 2007-08-03, 09:02   Link #1018
Var
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
True, but as I pointed out earlier, Lelouch has been more selfish than just about anyone else, so it's not much of an argument in his favour.
I wonder if this can be said in light of how Suzaku thinks and acts now. Even before Euphie died he was selfish towards his warped ideals, trying to push them onto everyone else while never really giving a moments thought to any other view point.

Quote:
And until you can show how Cornelia ordered everyone killed in Saitama, my point stands. Just because she wanted to create a similar situation to Shinjuku doesn't automatically mean that she wanted it to be identical in every respect.
Didn't she and Darlton discuss remaking the Shinjuku incident by removing the 'monsters' as she calls them? I could be mistaken but I could have sworn she either gave the order or sat there when the order was given.

Last edited by Var; 2007-08-03 at 09:19.
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Old 2007-08-03, 09:05   Link #1019
evil|plushie
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True, but as I pointed out earlier, Lelouch has been more selfish than just about anyone else, so it's not much of an argument in his favour.
How has he been more selfish? Because he wants to change the status quo so that his sister will eventually be able to live happily ever after? I really don't see how he has been any more selfish than the rest. You can argue that because of his beliefs, hundreds of people have been killed. But let's look at it this way, Kallen is fighting for the sake of her mother, and for that persons sake is willing to kill enemies on the battlefield until japan is liberated. How is that any more or less selfish than Lulu? Suzaku is fighting because he wants to die and because he wants redemption and vengeance, and to do that, he'll kill enemies on the battlefield until he dies/or is redeemed. How is that any more or less selfish? Seriously, how do you measure the level of selfishness in them?

Quote:
And until you can show how Cornelia ordered everyone killed in Saitama, my point stands. Just because she wanted to create a similar situation to Shinjuku doesn't automatically mean that she wanted it to be identical in every respect.
Okay.....so your basic argument is that even though Cornelia was shown saying that she wanted it to be a replica of Shinjuku so as to lure Zero out, she secretly gave orders when off-screen and nobody could see/verify her to spare the civilians if possible? Um...yeah...I suppose that's not impossible, though the chances are low since basically, there's no proof otherwise.


I don't think that this is much of an argument. Even if Japan had been responsible for all sorts of atrocities, it is a very different political entity under occupation from when it was independent. There's no particular reason for people unrelated to a crime to suffer as a penalty for that crime. And without any reason to think that independent Japan acted maliciously, the default assumption is that it didn't.


Quote:
That isn't quite true. The lack of information suggests that the argument in the positive is fallacious, and that the default condition is correct.
So, could I use this quote to support the above argument? Since there is a lack of information about Cornelia wanting to spare civilians and the soldiers 'spontaneously' deciding to kill them, and your argument is in the positive of that, therefore the default condition ie. viewers see Cornelia saying she wants a replica of Shinjuku to draw Zero out, is correct then?
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Old 2007-08-03, 09:16   Link #1020
Majek
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I don't think that this is much of an argument. Even if Japan had been responsible for all sorts of atrocities, it is a very different political entity under occupation from when it was independent. There's no particular reason for people unrelated to a crime to suffer as a penalty for that crime. And without any reason to think that independent Japan acted maliciously, the default assumption is that it didn't.
What exactly has changed? All the people in power form before are still there pulling the string. People supported that regime and it's actions that lead to this war. It's leader is assumed to be a rotten bastard, infact in all other media he's been decribed like that so why should i accept Japan as a "good country" when no real facts are given.
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