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Old 2007-08-05, 16:55   Link #21
Trance
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I wish that the game was continued on the strategy part of the series, it will be a waste to finish the story in a MMORPG, wonder what'll happen if Arthas is dead...?
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Old 2007-08-05, 17:02   Link #22
hooliganj
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If Arthas is even half as hard as Illidan then it won't be random noobs who take him down.

I'm looking forward to the expansion. Death Knights look pretty cool, the new continent will be great (I'm a full explorer on the Bartle test), and the new Inscribing profession sounds neat - I may switch one of my characters over from a job I've grown tired of, like tailoring or blacksmithing.
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Old 2007-08-05, 17:22   Link #23
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I don't think the problem isn't that "nihilum HAXXORS" or "noobs" can kill arthas.
The problem is : arthas is no way in hell possible to be killed by 25 guys. this is also applied with archimonde, illidan, vashj, Kael'thas, etc

Lore wise, they are simply beefy hero, and it is hard to admit they let these killed with some weird devices.
granted, they actually put the "wisps" for archimonde, and maiev for Illidan in WOW, but these 2 points don't really fill the "lame death" that many fans felt with their death.

i believe they aren't easy boss, but the way how they are "available" and "killeable" have many "i'm a loot boss", rather "BOOYA, i'm the biggest baddy on azeroth!"

if they begun to let Ashara (and things like that) being killed, i believe Metzen should wake up, because the lore just get more and more destroyed at this rate.
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Old 2007-08-05, 18:31   Link #24
Demongod86
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Vashj and Kaelthas I'd actually think would be possible to be taken down by 25 random guys. They're sissies. Illidan and Arthas? No.
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Old 2007-08-05, 18:52   Link #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
Vashj and Kaelthas I'd actually think would be possible to be taken down by 25 random guys. They're sissies. Illidan and Arthas? No.
this really depend.
Vashj is Queen Azshara's first lady, have lived many millenia, and even survived The Sundering. at the very least, she is on par with Tyrande Whisperwind during the War of ancients. If we add the mutation into naga, and the chaotic arcane fest in the Maelsrom, that is rather a BIG cocktail.
As for Kael'thas, well... considering how is his prowess with the kirin tor, and later on, his association with illidan, it is safe to assume he is kinda equal to Jaina Proudmoore.

again, i can be wrong with K'T, but Vashj isn't really a weakling..."
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Old 2007-08-05, 23:34   Link #26
Demongod86
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Kael'Thas has always been a weakling, easily manipulated, and more or less out of control with his magic. He clung to Illidan, then the burning legion (or what was left of it) and more or less went nuts.

As for Vashj, Tyrande is an absolute wuss. Illidan and Arthas though have been at the forefront and have slaughtered countless. Considering that Illidan has singlehandedly slaughtered Tichondrius and slain countless of other demons or nearly (Magtheridon), that's badass. Arthas's actions speak for themselves.

For those two to simply get swarmed by silly nameless adventurers and taken down by a far less powerful character is just pathetic. Maiev needed an army to capture Illidan, and even then later got pwnt by two wusses.

Somehow it doesn't sit well with me that the man I've been playing through three campaigns (Arthas) and the perhaps only character in all of warcraft lore that has straddled the fence in terms of good and evil (Illidan) and has emerged so powerful for it, could be just so easily offed by random morons.

No, it does not sit well with me at all.
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Old 2007-08-06, 00:00   Link #27
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From the opposite perspective - if the game consisted of 60/70/80 lvls of killing beasts and minions and then didn't give you a crack at the top guys, there really wouldn't be any point in playing at all. Regardless of their relative power levels - which seem to fluctuate at the whim of the storyline anyway - the whole reason to use the Warcraft world for the game is to give players access to that lore and those characters. Given how popular it's been, it only makes sense for Blizzard to keep adding these guys in.

Who knows, the 14th expansion might let you go to lvl 200 and fight against the gods themselves... and Blizzard could still release a Warcraft IV and say none of it ever happened. It's their property, after all, and they can make as many different canons/alternate timelines as they like.
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Old 2007-08-06, 00:18   Link #28
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Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
zomg i didnt know you played WoW vexx O.O

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I was firmly in Everquest since it first released.... I like what MMOs *could* be but no one yet seems to have quite solved the 'grind' and 'economy' issues, much less the 'unchanging world' problem.

I played Shadowbane for a while but they had problems with server worlds collapsing into 'one guild' ownership, with large-scale battles, and basic network connections.

Camelot almost kept me but my sons wandered off. We played Neocron a while (sci-fi setting) ... very nice attempt at pseudo-FPS and atmosphere but they lacked the capital to really fire it off. Horizons was just... empty.

I was dragged in the WoW beta by my sons (I had returned to EQ) and.... fell in love with the Troll race. I have characters in each race/class/side and tend to stick to the RP or RP-PVP servers (though Blizzard's RP moderation sucks like most MMOs seem to).
I had dropped WoW for a while (trying D&D Online) til my son's girlfriend enticed me back with the new story content in BL.
The main server I play on is quite old, which means there's rather little competition for the 1-60 content, the only downside is that the AH sucks for people under lvl 40 anymore with inflation and lack of items.

I have a few characters working from lvl 60 to 70 at the moment and some new characters --- that's my main failure: I character hop.
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Old 2007-08-06, 00:39   Link #29
Demongod86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooliganj View Post
From the opposite perspective - if the game consisted of 60/70/80 lvls of killing beasts and minions and then didn't give you a crack at the top guys, there really wouldn't be any point in playing at all. Regardless of their relative power levels - which seem to fluctuate at the whim of the storyline anyway - the whole reason to use the Warcraft world for the game is to give players access to that lore and those characters. Given how popular it's been, it only makes sense for Blizzard to keep adding these guys in.

Who knows, the 14th expansion might let you go to lvl 200 and fight against the gods themselves... and Blizzard could still release a Warcraft IV and say none of it ever happened. It's their property, after all, and they can make as many different canons/alternate timelines as they like.
My firm hypothesis would be that players couldn't care less about who they fight so long as they get shiny loot. I have a few friends that play WoW and they don't even know who the hell Illidan is aside from "Terrorblade from DotA", if that. Heck, they don't call demon hunters demon hunters. They call them antimages!

Frankly, I think that for 95% of the WoW fanbase, if you replaced Illidan with Spongebob Squarepants or Hello Kitty, it wouldn't matter to them. Nihilum's website would read: SPONGEBOB DOWN! FIRST WORLD KILL! instead of Illidan.

At heart, WoW is a hack and slash, and that IMO belongs in the diablo universe.

The most ironic thing about this is that if you keep on clicking on Illidan in his winged model, he says:

"Wings, horns, hooves...what is this, diablo?!"

And stupidly enough, Illidan went down no different than Diablo...just as another boss in the way of raiders for loot.

Metzen needs to get a reality check and realize he's killing everything by slaughtering lore characters out of the RTSs and replacing them with essentially "Bob the Destroyer" type characters--aka new characters that come out of nowhere simply to get plowed over by the next big raid party.
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Old 2007-08-06, 12:05   Link #30
hooliganj
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In a way, that's precisely my point. There's going to have to be a boss of some kind for everybody to aim for, whether it be Illidan or Spongebob. It really doesn't matter what they call him, except to that 5% the want the game to stick to a lore that was hashed out by committee and a backstory that was written on the fly in the first place. It's not a sacred text, and I'm sure they'll come up with something else to replace these guys - just like the Lich King replaced Ner'zhul and Illidan replaced Magtheridon, there will be a new generation of baddies to deal with.
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Old 2007-08-06, 14:13   Link #31
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I liked the announcement of the Death Knight. They're going to introduce the class-specific rune system which seems pretty novel from what they described, and it makes me hopeful to see other WarIII hero classes... in further 40-50$ expansions. The addition of a world pvp zone will be fun as well.
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Old 2007-08-07, 09:09   Link #32
ChainLegacy
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You people just don't want to let go of old and powerful characters you're fond of. In WoW, a maximum level toon with good gear -is- a hero unit, so to speak. Generalizing WoW players into mindless loot whores is pretty stupid, too. I personally am an avid WoW fan and know pretty much everything about Warcraft lore, even having read some of the novels.

Yeah, Arthas and Illidan are very powerful... but do you think you can simply waltz into an end-game boss fight? Your character must journey through other dungeons, take down lesser monsters, etc, etc, working his way up in power (which is embodied by gear in-game). 25 'hero' units with legendary gear and renowned skill should definitely be able to take down Illidan, and perhaps even Arthas.
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Old 2007-08-07, 10:06   Link #33
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Being one that plays the game and read the lore for fun o.o... Arthas IS one of the most powerful being in the universe (world? correct me if I'm wrong). But it doesn't he is invincible. Yes, it may be stupid to have Arthas to be killable by 25 non-famous people, but it isn't wont necessarily HAVE to be 25 people. For all we know Blizzard can make it a 40 man or 35 man. There are many things that still haven't been released about it.
Concerning the Death Knight, I am thinking that there will be a "Hero Class" for every regular class, for example (Pally ----> Death Knight) or something along those lines.
And what I think should be put into the game is a Barber NPC or Plastic Surgeon NPC because my character is ugly as is and is in need of a new hair style or new face...
There are rumors of there being a new instance in TBC (Burning Crusade) Also, known as Zul'Aman in the Ghostlands (Told to me from a IRL friend). There are no definite answers to which instances will be included. Though I am guessing that in a future patch or in the Wrath of the Lich King expansion, there will be a new instance added to the CoT (Caverns of Time). If you look to the left of the Black Morass Instance, there is a little place blocked off by a ship. If you look high enough you can see a portal that leads into an instance. Judging by the ship wreak I am guessing that it will be and event that took place before like in WarIII: TFT Act 1 where everyone is searching for Saegares' Eye (I most likely spelt that wrong but mehh..) or what I'm am hoping is some pirate instance =].
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Old 2007-08-07, 10:16   Link #34
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
You people just don't want to let go of old and powerful characters you're fond of. In WoW, a maximum level toon with good gear -is- a hero unit, so to speak. Generalizing WoW players into mindless loot whores is pretty stupid, too. I personally am an avid WoW fan and know pretty much everything about Warcraft lore, even having read some of the novels.
Actually, any "hero" like you said is almost unable to solo a dumb instance elite of his own level. it looks quite... weird that the heroes aren't "elite" per se. (no i don't ask players being able to smoke elite instance, but that mention means they are far from being "hero" as powerhouse. Characters in WOW are sure "heroic" in their mission etc, but they don't earn the "legendary power" of heroes per se.
Quote:
Yeah, Arthas and Illidan are very powerful... but do you think you can simply waltz into an end-game boss fight? Your character must journey through other dungeons, take down lesser monsters, etc, etc, working his way up in power (which is embodied by gear in-game). 25 'hero' units with legendary gear and renowned skill should definitely be able to take down Illidan, and perhaps even Arthas.
Considering Illidan background, especially the skull of guldan, and Arthas' & Ner'zhul's background, it is really dubious to accept this. Especially Arthas, since Ner'zhul was litteraly able to enslave living beings and the like.

For the sake of gameplay, they cannot be invinsible, but as for the lore, they are way under what they are supposed to be (especially Illidan, who doesn't look being able to maintain his Demonic Form, etc)

@striding cloud

1) it has been stated that since BC, Wow raid will be restricted to 25, for lag and organization issues.

2) As for the Hero class, it appears they will do another approach instead of "upgrade of X class". Also, according Blizzard, "hero class" doesn't mean it is a more powerful class than the 9 "regular classes".
see this link : http://deathknight.info/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=47
especially Drysc quote :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drysc
They are not planned to be more powerful, them being a hero class simply means they're introduced at a higher level, and in general will reference the more powerful hero types of Warcraft history.

It's out intention to integrate them into the current classes, balance them appropriately, and have them provide an additional - but equal - role in groups and raids as compared to other classes.
3) Zul'Aman should be an instance like Karazhan, but much harder. it will be introduced in a patch, not in WoTLK
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Old 2007-08-07, 10:41   Link #35
Striding Cloud
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@Klashikari

Yeah, didn't really pay attention to the 25man stuffs xD. And well I didn't really say anything about them being more powerful, they will just have more unique skills etc etc. As for Zul'Aman I'm pretty sure it was to be cleared in 3 hours, 5 bosses and depending on how fast you finish the loots will be different or something like that.
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Old 2007-08-07, 10:45   Link #36
hooliganj
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Zul'Aman isn't really a rumor anymore. It's a 10 man raid, due out with the next patch (2.2), and said to be more difficult but also "more casual" than Karazahn, by which they seem to mean that with only 6 bosses it should take a mere 2-3 hours to finish compared to Kara's 5-6. The first 4 bosses are all aspects of a different forest troll god (dragonhawk, lynx, bear and eagle), then a witch doctor and finally Zul'jin, the troll chieftain from Warcraft II.

For a bit more info you can try this page. Personally I'm nowhere close to ever finishing Karazahn, and have trouble imagining a more difficult set of fights, but the area sounds pretty cool.
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Old 2007-08-07, 10:48   Link #37
Striding Cloud
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Yep, 5 bosses... 6 bosses same thing... But then again it wouldn't really matter since WotLK wont be out for a year or 2, since it was just announced, so imo, I wouldn't be getting my hopes up.
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Old 2007-08-07, 17:17   Link #38
hooliganj
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Apparently Blizzard is aiming for the end of this year with WotLK, but I'm not expecting anything before February. Still, with all the money they have to throw at this it definitely won't be much longer than that.
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Old 2007-08-07, 17:26   Link #39
Westlo
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I'm guessing after Northrend the next expansion will be the seas and Queen Azshara.

Quote:
When the portal to the other realm was almost open, the combined force of the Night Elves and their allies from the future (see War of the Ancients) charged in to destroy it. Irritated by the lack of order, Azshara approached Mannoroth and demanded an explanation. Enraged by both his own failure and the questions asked by the Queen, he wanted to rip her head off, but quickly saw the error of his ways when he realized that Azshara kept inside her a power to which only Sargeras and Archimonde would prove superior. Azshara forgave him that mistake and urged him on to allow Sargeras entrance to Kalimdor.
Keep in mind that was before an old god changed and powered her up, she's is definitely level 90 or 100 material. 100 of course if they go with the Emerald Dream expansion first.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Queen_Azshara
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Old 2007-08-07, 17:35   Link #40
Fruitfly
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
I'm guessing after Northrend the next expansion will be the seas and Queen Azshara.

Keep in mind that was before an old god changed and powered her up, she's is definitely level 90 or 100 material. 100 of course if they go with the Emerald Dream expansion first.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Queen_Azshara
Oh yes! Murloc dungeon please
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