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Old 2007-08-09, 06:36   Link #101
JagdPanther
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Originally Posted by HunterRequiem View Post
off topic

You know, I remember there was a report of a guy in the UK who went after a cop with a katana and tried to block the bullets. Needless to say, he's dead now.
Really. ^_^

I would never have guessed.
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Old 2007-08-09, 10:25   Link #102
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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
Really. ^_^

I would never have guessed.
Here's an interesting question, what kind of metal are they using on the KMF's and most other war-based equipment? Given that it is an anime, the metal shows some odd characteristics. It seems to become brittle when put under enough pressure but strong enough to resist denting from ballistics (though at times it seems to be unable to stop bullets).

Quote:
Eh, something that interests me a lot is how aircraft and the entire concept of air dominance seems to be negated in Code Geass. It probably has something to do with the lack of development on jet engines, from what I'm observing.

I don't believe mechas can completely negate the necessity or even option of aircraft deployment in battle, as their weaponry doesn't seem too suited for AA use. I mean, a squad of tactical bombers with appropriate escort and ground support could probably be able to destroy mechas with ease, although I may be underestimating the general mecha speed capabilities. Hmmm...
The Avalon seems to be the first flying creation of its size, or maybe its just based on that technology. But they do have planes, small ones, like the carriers we see lifting off in episode 24. You may be right, since the circumstances of the jet engine in our history may not have been met in the alternate.

Mechas are weak to air attacks. They are large, moving targets for aircraft. Given that they can move at decent speeds they would still be easy prey for a jet fighter... Unless they were the Lancelot. I doubt bombers would work though, just based on the way KMF's are used. Bombers are slow, easy targets and KMF's should have enough speed to 'run away' from a bomber.

You can see the KMF's moving at very fast speed during some encounters. If we sat down and guessed the size of a building in the background and timed how long it took to pass the building, we could find the speed of a KMF... but that's way to much effort.
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Old 2007-08-09, 10:47   Link #103
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Here's an interesting question, what kind of metal are they using on the KMF's and most other war-based equipment? Given that it is an anime, the metal shows some odd characteristics. It seems to become brittle when put under enough pressure but strong enough to resist denting from ballistics (though at times it seems to be unable to stop bullets).
Poorly refined steel.

Think the steel from the RMS Titantic. Poor shear strength when another KMF tries to slice through it, brittle, etc.

If I had to make a guess, that'd be it. Doubt it's aluminum, though for the sake of weight it may just be that. I could be totally wrong. Actually, now that I think about it, it could very well be aluminum. That would explain the ballistics aspect. It can stop the lighter small-arms rounds and its god-awful against anything bigger.
Quote:
The Avalon seems to be the first flying creation of its size, or maybe its just based on that technology. But they do have planes, small ones, like the carriers we see lifting off in episode 24. You may be right, since the circumstances of the jet engine in our history may not have been met in the alternate.
The transport planes seemed to be in large numbers and there appeared to be a jet-type object propelling them. I would assume they have it.

And the Avalon isn't a good measure, I don't think. There's really no indication of the propulsion mechanics. At the least it'd have to be a V/TOL aircraft since the OotBKs mention it can stop in mid-air.

EDIT: As mentioned by mist below, actually, yeah, they did say it was an advanced propulsion system as which we don't know in our time.
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Mechas are weak to air attacks. They are large, moving targets for aircraft. Given that they can move at decent speeds they would still be easy prey for a jet fighter... Unless they were the Lancelot. I doubt bombers would work though, just based on the way KMF's are used. Bombers are slow, easy targets and KMF's should have enough speed to 'run away' from a bomber.
Doubtful. With precision bombing today you can't run... nor even hide, really.

In the event that you could only carpet bomb or use iron-bombs dropped from light-bombers or fighter-bombers the "bombers are slow" argument doesn't work. Jet bombers are a far cry from the B-17s and B-24s of old, which really were slow, lumbering bombers. B-52s are really the last real bombers that are considered easy prey if not properly protected. Today we have stealth B2s and super-sonic, low-flying B1s that scare the hell out of any opposing force... especially now that B2s and B1s have proven that they can be loaded down with all smart bombs and just lay waste to an OpFor. Beware of tank-plinking smart-bombs. ^^;
Quote:
You can see the KMF's moving at very fast speed during some encounters. If we sat down and guessed the size of a building in the background and timed how long it took to pass the building, we could find the speed of a KMF... but that's way to much effort.
Someone's prolly done it, too...
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Old 2007-08-09, 10:48   Link #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
Here's an interesting question, what kind of metal are they using on the KMF's and most other war-based equipment? Given that it is an anime, the metal shows some odd characteristics. It seems to become brittle when put under enough pressure but strong enough to resist denting from ballistics (though at times it seems to be unable to stop bullets).



The Avalon seems to be the first flying creation of its size, or maybe its just based on that technology. But they do have planes, small ones, like the carriers we see lifting off in episode 24. You may be right, since the circumstances of the jet engine in our history may not have been met in the alternate.

Mechas are weak to air attacks. They are large, moving targets for aircraft. Given that they can move at decent speeds they would still be easy prey for a jet fighter... Unless they were the Lancelot. I doubt bombers would work though, just based on the way KMF's are used. Bombers are slow, easy targets and KMF's should have enough speed to 'run away' from a bomber.

You can see the KMF's moving at very fast speed during some encounters. If we sat down and guessed the size of a building in the background and timed how long it took to pass the building, we could find the speed of a KMF... but that's way to much effort.
well a bomber filled with nukes with 80KM yeild then lancelot is 10000% dead unless he uses his hax

Avalon was flying using the float system without any jet and other types of engine. Using the float system made it capable of staying still in mid air
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Old 2007-08-09, 11:04   Link #105
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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
Poorly refined steel.

Think the steel from the RMS Titantic. Poor shear strength when another KMF tries to slice through it, brittle, etc.

If I had to make a guess, that'd be it. Doubt it's aluminum, though for the sake of weight it may just be that. I could be totally wrong. Actually, now that I think about it, it could very well be aluminum. That would explain the ballistics aspect. It can stop the lighter small-arms rounds and its god-awful against anything bigger.
When I first saw some of the characteristics I thought Aluminum as well.

Quote:
The transport planes seemed to be in large numbers and there appeared to be a jet-type object propelling them. I would assume they have it.

And the Avalon isn't a good measure, I don't think. There's really no indication of the propulsion mechanics. At the least it'd have to be a V/TOL aircraft since the OotBKs mention it can stop in mid-air.
Probably right. However, perhaps they simply never applied it to jets. They developed the engine as a form of transport but the KMF's may have turned them away from the creation of jets and bombers. I was referring to the Avalon more as a show that perhaps, even if they made jet engines, this new technology may have made them disinterested in the idea and simply stifled its development.

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Doubtful. With precision bombing today you can't run... nor even hide, really.
Probably right, but that is assuming they have developed it. I don't think they used a single bombing run during the whole show and it would have probably been more useful than KMF's in a few situations.

Quote:
In the event that you could only carpet bomb or use iron-bombs dropped from light-bombers or fighter-bombers the "bombers are slow" argument doesn't work. Jet bombers are a far cry from the B-17s and B-24s of old, which really were slow, lumbering bombers. B-52s are really the last real bombers that are considered easy prey if not properly protected. Today we have stealth B2s and super-sonic, low-flying B1s that scare the hell out of any opposing force... especially now that B2s and B1s have proven that they can be loaded down with all smart bombs and just lay waste to an OpFor. Beware of tank-plinking smart-bombs. ^^;

Someone's prolly done it, too...
Well, again we really have no idea what they have developed in the way of jet engine uses and bomb developments. Though if they were going by today's standards, there would really be no mechas anywhere as they would be incredibly easy targets to precision bombing. Due to this I tend to believe that they have little development in air-based bombing and applications for the jet engine.

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Originally Posted by mist2123 View Post
well a bomber filled with nukes with 80KM yeild then lancelot is 10000% dead unless he uses his hax

Avalon was flying using the float system without any jet and other types of engine. Using the float system made it capable of staying still in mid air
Nukes would kill everything. Hell if someone went there with a Hydrogen bomb they'd be godlike.

Last edited by Var; 2007-08-09 at 12:50.
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Old 2007-08-09, 11:24   Link #106
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They do have Jet fighters.

In the first episode during the invasion of Japan we see submarines, battleships, landing crafts, and jet fighters.

After that we don't see them again

As the narrator stated Knightmares dominate the ground battlefield but that is all.
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Old 2007-08-09, 11:43   Link #107
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
They do have Jet fighters.

In the first episode during the invasion of Japan we see submarines, battleships, landing crafts, and jet fighters.

After that we don't see them again

As the narrator stated Knightmares dominate the ground battlefield but that is all.
Boy missed that. You are right there are jet fighters.

I suppose this falls under the 'its anime' category for the giant robots kicking ass. I wonder why we never see jet fighters after that? Maybe only Japan had them XD
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Old 2007-08-09, 12:17   Link #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Var
Here's an interesting question, what kind of metal are they using on the KMF's and most other war-based equipment? Given that it is an anime, the metal shows some odd characteristics. It seems to become brittle when put under enough pressure but strong enough to resist denting from ballistics (though at times it seems to be unable to stop bullets).
A good bet is regular RHA; face-hardening can explain how it can defeat gun rounds that should otherwise penetrate the armor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Var
Mechas are weak to air attacks. They are large, moving targets for aircraft. Given that they can move at decent speeds they would still be easy prey for a jet fighter... Unless they were the Lancelot. I doubt bombers would work though, just based on the way KMF's are used. Bombers are slow, easy targets and KMF's should have enough speed to 'run away' from a bomber.
There's no real need to resort to this kind of argument. Historically, air power is of limited effectiveness against competently-commanded ground units. Since the combat in Code Geass is largely guerilla warfare, it's not too surprising that there isn't all that much combat aircraft in the show. Another way of looking at it is that it's not reasonable to expect a guerilla force to field any quantity of aircraft at all - the infrastructure and maintenance requirements aren't condusive to their tactics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagdpanther
With precision bombing today you can't run... nor even hide, really.
Not quite. Precision bombing is great when you're trying to attack infrastructure, but it's decidedly less effective against enemy vehicles. This is especially true if they're good at hiding them. The Kosovo bombing campaign illustrates this very well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness
In the first episode during the invasion of Japan we see submarines, battleships, landing crafts, and jet fighters.

After that we don't see them again
Technically, we did see some of that hardware in the aborted Chinese invasion of Kyushu. Naval assets are obviously going to be far less useful in the ground battles we've seen.
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Old 2007-08-09, 12:23   Link #109
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Not quite. Precision bombing is great when you're trying to attack infrastructure, but it's decidedly less effective against enemy vehicles. This is especially true if they're good at hiding them. The Kosovo bombing campaign illustrates this very well.
As the technology is progressing it's becoming more of an option, though.

In some cases it is an impossibility, of course, as is the case with satellite-guided munitions. Unless that tank/APC/whatever is stationary, then the bomb won't hit because it's locked onto coordinates.

But it was demonstrated in the Gulf War that laser guided bombs could be effectively deployed against tanks and other moving targets given the ability of the ordnance to change course slightly. Obviously there are issues with targets moving very quickly and erratically with high degree of freedom to move about an area. But even so, KMFs could be engaged with them if they were sitting still or only moving slowly, such as around a marshalling area or on patrol. Then, of course, prevailing weather conditions and smoke, among other things, come into play with regards to the laser designator itself...
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Old 2007-08-09, 12:33   Link #110
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Technically, we did see some of that hardware in the aborted Chinese invasion of Kyushu. Naval assets are obviously going to be far less useful in the ground battles we've seen.
Whoops

I actually meant just the jet fighters.
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Old 2007-08-09, 15:45   Link #111
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A good bet is regular RHA; face-hardening can explain how it can defeat gun rounds that should otherwise penetrate the armor.
Wouldn't RHA restrict movement capabilities though? It is an obsolete method of armoring a mobile unit if I am not mistaken, due to its weight and size. Empty-space armor plates and depleted uranium steel mix would be better but, now I am not 100% sure, would not have the same ballistics resistance properties.
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Old 2007-08-09, 16:30   Link #112
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Originally Posted by Jagdpanther
But it was demonstrated in the Gulf War...
I don't think that the Iraqi Army qualifies as "competently-commanded" by any stretch of the imagination. You really should read up on the Serbian employment of low-tech air defence techniques used during the Kosovo bombing campaign. It demonstrates a lot of the weaknesses of modern tactical air doctorine.

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Wouldn't RHA restrict movement capabilities though? It is an obsolete method of armoring a mobile unit if I am not mistaken, due to its weight and size.
I'm afraid that you're not even close. RHA is, by far, the most common armor used by modern militaries. While composite armor is very good for handling the big APFSDS and HEAT rounds, it's impractical for most applications. And neither titanium nor aluminum are as useful for general use as RHA is.
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Old 2007-08-09, 16:32   Link #113
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I don't think that the Iraqi Army qualifies as "competently-commanded" by any stretch of the imagination. You really should read up on the Serbian employment of low-tech air defence techniques used during the Kosovo bombing campaign. It demonstrates a lot of the weaknesses of modern tactical air doctorine.
Well sometimes ya just get lucky in who you're fighting. ^^;

As for the Serbs, I know.
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Old 2007-08-09, 16:45   Link #114
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I'm afraid that you're not even close. RHA is, by far, the most common armor used by modern militaries. While composite armor is very good for handling the big APFSDS and HEAT rounds, it's impractical for most applications. And neither titanium nor aluminum are as useful for general use as RHA is.
While I know that the US military uses RHA, was it MIL-A-46100 currently, I thought that it had been phased out by the newer, more effective armors which did not restrict movement as much as the RHA. Even if it is a common use, that does not mean it is good or the best.
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Old 2007-08-09, 17:11   Link #115
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While I know that the US military uses RHA, was it MIL-A-46100 currently, I thought that it had been phased out by the newer, more effective armors which did not restrict movement as much as the RHA. Even if it is a common use, that does not mean it is good or the best.
The main RHA types in American use are MIL-A-46100 and MIL-A-12560 - brand new vehicles are still constructed with them. That it's still commonly employed in light vehicles should be sufficient to dispell any suggestions that it somehow restricts movement; at least moreso than most other alternatives. For all sorts of reasons, it usually isn't desirable to put the much more advanced composite armor (although new is a very relative term) into lighter combat vehicles.

There are a few related technology myths to note when it comes to the question of newer vs. older (I'm cribbing shamelessly from another site):

- Newer technologies are always superior to older technologies in every aspect.
- Older technologies are made obsolete by newer technologies, and they eventually become useless.
- No implementation of an older technology, no matter how clever or refined, will ever equal any implementation of a newer technology.

None of these myths are true. In our case, Aluminum armor is newer than RHA, but its drawbacks mean that it's unsuited for more military applications.
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Old 2007-08-09, 17:40   Link #116
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The main RHA types in American use are MIL-A-46100 and MIL-A-12560 - brand new vehicles are still constructed with them. That it's still commonly employed in light vehicles should be sufficient to dispell any suggestions that it somehow restricts movement; at least moreso than most other alternatives. For all sorts of reasons, it usually isn't desirable to put the much more advanced composite armor (although new is a very relative term) into lighter combat vehicles.

There are a few related technology myths to note when it comes to the question of newer vs. older (I'm cribbing shamelessly from another site):

- Newer technologies are always superior to older technologies in every aspect.
- Older technologies are made obsolete by newer technologies, and they eventually become useless.
- No implementation of an older technology, no matter how clever or refined, will ever equal any implementation of a newer technology.

None of these myths are true. In our case, Aluminum armor is newer than RHA, but its drawbacks mean that it's unsuited for more military applications.
Interesting. I was, then, under the false impression that RHA was not used nearly as much as it actually is. Though I did not base this on the three myths you brought up, or at least I would hope not as I tend to avoid those ideas... especially since I am in the field of Physics.

I based this on the availability of Composite, and maybe even Chobham, armors, but now that I think about it, the price of their creation as full armor for a vehicle would be restrictive to say the least.

Last edited by Var; 2007-08-09 at 17:53.
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Old 2007-08-09, 23:15   Link #117
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I based this on the availability of Composite, and maybe even Chobham, armors, but now that I think about it, the price of their creation as full armor for a vehicle would be restrictive to say the least.
It's actually less a matter of cost than it is a matter of feasibility. In order to be effective, composite armors like Chobham and Drochester have to have a certain thickness. Armor is heavy, so only so much of a tank's mass can be used for armor; any of it used to defend the other arcs will hence reduce it from the front. This goes against the vast majority of MBT design philosophy, so most countries decide to just have relatively thin RHA on the less important arcs.

This limitation is partially the reason why the current trend is to develop more in the way of active defenses like electromagnetic armor, reactive armor, TROPHY, or laser defenses.
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Old 2007-08-10, 05:47   Link #118
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
It's actually less a matter of cost than it is a matter of feasibility. In order to be effective, composite armors like Chobham and Drochester have to have a certain thickness. Armor is heavy, so only so much of a tank's mass can be used for armor; any of it used to defend the other arcs will hence reduce it from the front. This goes against the vast majority of MBT design philosophy, so most countries decide to just have relatively thin RHA on the less important arcs.

This limitation is partially the reason why the current trend is to develop more in the way of active defenses like electromagnetic armor, reactive armor, TROPHY, or laser defenses.
Speaking of reactive armor, I think it'd be the most likely candidate for the higher-end KMF armor. Its description seems to fit with what an advanced KMF may likely be outfitted with, and is still open to even more innovative properties that would make it a tougher armor to penetrate. Since there is a disproportionate burst of technology based on the general field of electricity in the Code Geass universe (as revealed by some types of gun descriptions, more notably the pistol), I would even go far as to say that electric reactive armor is a possibility as an armor for the best of the KMFs (possibly Lancelot).
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Old 2007-08-10, 07:52   Link #119
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The main problem with reactive armor is that the machine still needs to have a significant amount of conventional armor protection - it reduces the penetration power of an attack, but doesn't altogether eliminate it. I'm not sure if Knightmare Frames have enough armor to make it worthwhile.

By the way, electric reactive armor is already in prominent evidence in another anime: Gundam Seed's Phase Shift Armor.
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Old 2007-10-10, 23:27   Link #120
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You guys gotta admit though,
The cannon used by the Japanese when they took hostage of Shirley and friends was pretty nice.
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