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Old 2007-08-09, 02:56   Link #21
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Its not much to say, only that I love the Sekai charachter, and mostly agree with Sinestra here. And I cant blame Sekai.
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Old 2007-08-09, 05:05   Link #22
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You know Sekai could have said something herself in ep 6 when they're all on the roof, but instead she says really the lemonade was nice

They're both chicken to say it to Kotonoha
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Old 2007-08-09, 05:50   Link #23
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^ while she was obviously lacking of courage, it isn't her "duty" to do this.
despite she might be "makoto's girlfriend" now, the break up concerns only Makoto and Kotonoha.

i don't see why the third party should be involved, especially that it doesn't settle things by this way. (misunderstanding, wrong reasons etc.)

she has obviously made many mistakes, but the main problem in the break up is makoto alone, who is unable to think of the consequence of his acts and carelessness.
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Old 2007-08-09, 06:21   Link #24
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So it's her duty to continue cheating on Kotonoha? Sekai knows the consequences of her acts and carelessness, but continues anyway.

"Even though you are going out with someone else, I like you."
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Old 2007-08-09, 06:29   Link #25
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That's absolutely not what i meant.

But keep in mind she doesn't have any duty or whatsoever to do for Kotonoha. Despite their initial relationship and the rest, this isn't related to Makoto and kotonoha problem.
AT least, she tried to force him to blurt the truth, without any success, unfortunately.

Cheating is a huge word here, considering that it was Makoto who rushed like an idiot to her. (i don't say she wasn't for nothing, because of her training etc, of course). She was rather dishonest with herself, which brought her peculiar situation.

but once again, it has to be makoto who should confess the truth, and not sekai.
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Old 2007-08-09, 06:43   Link #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
But keep in mind she doesn't have any duty or whatsoever to do for Kotonoha.
I think Sekai has a responsibility to act like a friend, since it was Sekai who approached her and befriended her. Especially since it was for the explicit reason of hooking her and Makoto up. It's immoral to set your friend up with a guy, then steal that guy from her.

Quote:
AT least, she tried to force him to blurt the truth, without any success, unfortunately.
She could have tried harder. She could have witheld all contact from Makoto until he broke up with her. And he would have if she asked. Makoto would do anything Sekai said if she does it in her usual genki way.


Quote:
Cheating is a huge word here, considering that it was Makoto who rushed like an idiot to her. (i don't say she wasn't for nothing, because of her training etc, of course). She was rather dishonest with herself, which brought her peculiar situation.
Sekai kissed Makoto first, don't forget.


Quote:
but once again, it has to be makoto who should confess the truth, and not sekai.
It's his responsibility, but it's also her responsibility. Just because Makoto doesn't say anything, doesn't mean that she's free to do whatever she wants with Makoto. If he doesn't say anything, it's then her responsibility to confess as Kotonoha's friend.
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Old 2007-08-09, 06:48   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aceywacey View Post
You know Sekai could have said something herself in ep 6 when they're all on the roof, but instead she says really the lemonade was nice

They're both chicken to say it to Kotonoha
Do you thing its an easy task to tell Koto?
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Old 2007-08-09, 06:56   Link #28
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Originally Posted by Aceywacey View Post
I think Sekai has a responsibility to act like a friend, since it was Sekai who approached her and befriended her. Especially since it was for the explicit reason of hooking her and Makoto up. It's immoral to set your friend up with a guy, then steal that guy from her.
Again, you cannot combine friendship and love, especially if both are conflicting.
Like i said before, it is extremely rare to be able to have courage and selflessness for this kind of case.
Again, "steal" is uncorrect, because it was Makoto who moves towards her, despite her efforts to match him with kotonoha. She was a factor of this of course, but her intentions weren't ill to begin with.

Her major worry is to make Makoto happy. If he is because of her, she can't really help it, despite inflicting harm to kotonoha, that's it.
This isn't specific to this plot, but in many case were 2 people are friends, and aim for the same lover, things aren't that great. (I believe Bokura ga ita is the perfect example)
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She could have tried harder. She could have witheld all contact from Makoto until he broke up with her. And he would have if she asked. Makoto would do anything Sekai said if she does it in her usual genki way.
She cannot do this because she is conflicting with her feelings and Makoto's.
This is basically not something you can witheld with simple willpower. This case require that either the friend is extremely precious, or friendship is equal with love or even higher to the said person.
This is obviously not the case, since sekai isn't "that friend" with Kotonoha to begin with. She cares for her, but it isn't like they are best friends, though Kotonoha might think she is her best friend, because she doesn't have anyone except Sekai as friend.

and no, if you believe Makoto would obey blindly because Sekai is "genki", you are wrong. Basically, Makoto is much more "sensitive" when Sekai is in pain (which is was the case when she said "forget about me", and when she left before, saying that kotonoha is his girlfriend in EP6)
Quote:
Sekai kissed Makoto first, don't forget.
That wasn't cheating. Cheating for me is aiming for some goal, despite someone's trust etc.
Sekai didn't try to steal Makoto with this kiss, she was rather unable to keep her feelings shut, and took the "opportunity" because Makoto said so. After this, she didn't try anything of that sort (well voluntary, that is)

Quote:
It's his responsibility, but it's also her responsibility. Just because Makoto doesn't say anything, doesn't mean that she's free to do whatever she wants with Makoto. If he doesn't say anything, it's then her responsibility to confess as Kotonoha's friend.
She doesn't do whatever she wants with Makoto. she clearly tried to make him saying the truth. Like I said, only Makoto can do this, because it is HIS problem.
Third party doesn't get involved, not because they don't want to, but because they know they should not.
The effect might differ greatly, and it migh hurt the person much more, because the said lover didn't bother to say the truth.

Her responsability was to force Makoto to proceed in the confession, beyond this point is either useless, or much worse.
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Old 2007-08-09, 09:05   Link #29
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Yup, there's nothing wrong with Sekai. For me betrayal has a different meaning, and this isn't it. You help a friend get together without someone and you eventually end up liking him; nothing can help that. I'd say what Makoto did is more betrayal than Sekai.

In reality, friendship and love doesn't mix. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but from my experience when people break up, they don't become friends but just don't really talk to each other. When two people like the same person, (in contrary to anime,) they don't become friends and they compete. This is what I've seen. In my opinion if Sekai doesn't go for Makoto with her all, then she's lying to herself. If you have to break up a friendship to do what you want, then so be it.

However that's not what she's doing really. She tried to tell Kotonoha about them, but she never ended up doing so. I'll give her props for her logical thinking, but I'll also admit that she has some faults, although for me it's really insignificant. Also, I'm not saying what she does is right. I'm saying she had two choices that should be made separately, to not go after Makoto at all or go after Makoto with her all. She did the first part up until recently, but failed to completely do the second part.

I'll say that the current drama is good due to the fact that Sekai did linger between the two choices. That's entirely what episode 6 is about. If we like the drama and therefore like the anime, then can we really complain about the characters? If everyone acts like they're supposed to do, then there would be no drama.
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Old 2007-08-09, 12:15   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
That's absolutely not what i meant.

But keep in mind she doesn't have any duty or whatsoever to do for Kotonoha. Despite their initial relationship and the rest, this isn't related to Makoto and kotonoha problem.
AT least, she tried to force him to blurt the truth, without any success, unfortunately.

Cheating is a huge word here, considering that it was Makoto who rushed like an idiot to her. (i don't say she wasn't for nothing, because of her training etc, of course). She was rather dishonest with herself, which brought her peculiar situation.

but once again, it has to be makoto who should confess the truth, and not sekai.
seen as they are both in this whole mess together why do you insist that it is makoto's responsibility? there is no "you or me" in a real relationship and if that is what sekai is trying to do then she must understand that if makoto wont do whats right you will have to get the courage to start things off for him ~ like always ~ is it really that hard for sekai to tell kotonoha over lunch that makoto has something to tell her?

she knows it would be painful for kotonoha but which is worse? telling the truth or keeping quite until she finds out some other way? a la ep 6 end ~

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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
She cannot do this because she is conflicting with her feelings and Makoto's.
This is basically not something you can witheld with simple willpower. This case require that either the friend is extremely precious, or friendship is equal with love or even higher to the said person.
This is obviously not the case, since sekai isn't "that friend" with Kotonoha to begin with. She cares for her, but it isn't like they are best friends, though Kotonoha might think she is her best friend, because she doesn't have anyone except Sekai as friend.
her feelings with makoto's? arent they the same so whats so conflicting? and if you mean that sekai is juggling her feelings between keeping kotonoha happy and her love for makoto then this is an important question...

time and time ive kept saying that she is confused with her own feelings as one time you see her telling makoto to break up with kotonoha but at another time she tells him that kotonoha is his girlfriend and that he should return to her...the fault is on makoto for being indecisive and thus affecting sekai's thoughs...

granted that she is confused and mixed up but she needs to think for herself what is the best way for their case...if she really wants to come clean then she should have stop giving makoto some half assed request to "plz break up with her/tell her the truth" and actually did something about it...words alone wont solve anything...

and you have to understand that this whole thing isnt just makoto's responsibility cause:

1) sekai was the one to set up this relationship

2) sekai was the one who took makoto from kotonoha (however unintentional it was ~ whats done is done)

so by means sekai does hold responsibility to clean up the mess ~ leaving it all to makoto is like her dodging the whole situation herself as: "it doesnt bother me because it is your case..." ~ now that is what i call selfish...

she is not thinking like this though your excuse as to why she doesnt have to tell kotonoha makes it seem that way...
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Old 2007-08-09, 12:49   Link #31
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seen as they are both in this whole mess together why do you insist that it is makoto's responsibility? there is no "you or me" in a real relationship and if that is what sekai is trying to do then she must understand that if makoto wont do whats right you will have to get the courage to start things off for him ~ like always ~ is it really that hard for sekai to tell kotonoha over lunch that makoto has something to tell her?

she knows it would be painful for kotonoha but which is worse? telling the truth or keeping quite until she finds out some other way? a la ep 6 end ~
That's is because, in a relationship, there is Person 1 and Person 2. a break between these 2 shouldn't be interfered by a third party, like i talking all this time. Of course, Person 3 (so sekai), is a huge factor in the break up, but like i said, a relationship should be kept within the concerned persons.

As for sekai, i never implied that she was good in her manner at all. like i said, she clearly lack of courage, and if she could force things a bit more, that would litteraly oblidge makoto to proceed. this is what i can understand why people bash around her.
But i'm still wondering why she should litteraly do this instead of the chicken makoto, just because the later isn't able to goes on.
Just like i said, it is mainly makoto's responsability, but sekai is far from being innocent anyway.

Quote:
her feelings with makoto's? arent they the same so whats so conflicting? and if you mean that sekai is juggling her feelings between keeping kotonoha happy and her love for makoto then this is an important question...
That's what i meant effectively.
[Her feelings about kotonoha + guilt] VS [her love for makoto + makoto's feelings for her]
And of course, people can tell the later group just stomp on her care for kotonoha. not like it wasn't predictable for this kind of case (much like Mitsuki in KGNE)
Quote:
time and time ive kept saying that she is confused with her own feelings as one time you see her telling makoto to break up with kotonoha but at another time she tells him that kotonoha is his girlfriend and that he should return to her...the fault is on makoto for being indecisive and thus affecting sekai's thoughs...
Yes it is affecting her, but more like her guilt. Like i explained several times, her "you are kotonoha's boyfriend" is clearly a huge alarm that they cannot let things stay like this.
It is completely aberrant he isn't able to understand this (oh well, not really concerning this thread)
Quote:
granted that she is confused and mixed up but she needs to think for herself what is the best way for their case...if she really wants to come clean then she should have stop giving makoto some half assed request to "plz break up with her/tell her the truth" and actually did something about it...words alone wont solve anything...
Correct, that's why she is far from being innocent, but also far from being at fault.
You can say that it begun to be her own weakness after all.
Quote:
and you have to understand that this whole thing isnt just makoto's responsibility cause:

1) sekai was the one to set up this relationship

2) sekai was the one who took makoto from kotonoha (however unintentional it was ~ whats done is done)

so by means sekai does hold responsibility to clean up the mess ~ leaving it all to makoto is like her dodging the whole situation herself as: "it doesnt bother me because it is your case..." ~ now that is what i call selfish...
It is really hard to tell if she is becoming coward, selfish, or simply weak minded at this stage of the plot.

as far as i can have "empathy" (which is hard, considering how twisted these characters are), I believe we can state that the origin of this (so Sekai "manipulative" matching skills) were the core problem. Things wouldn't go as insane as if Makoto wasn't that hopeless. (but heck, no story of course).

I believe problems just pile, with some "apparant" aspect "this is because of THIS character", while responsability is quite spread.
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Old 2007-08-09, 15:33   Link #32
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As i see it, it is Makoto who should tell Kotonoha, and Makoto alone. Yes, Sekai set the two up. Yes, she started the whole mess. But it is Makoto who came running to her, on his own accord. It is not Sekai who is 'going out' with Kotonoha, it is Makoto - thus it is his responsibility. She has told him to make things straight - rest is on Makoto's shoulders.
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Old 2007-08-09, 16:03   Link #33
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Sigh...I see you guys still keep letting sekai get off easily. I think youd probably forgive her of murder...Guess that proves she puts on a pretty convincing act.

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Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
Yup, there's nothing wrong with Sekai. For me betrayal has a different meaning, and this isn't it. You help a friend get together without someone and you eventually end up liking him; nothing can help that. I'd say what Makoto did is more betrayal than Sekai.
Yea except for the fact that when she came across the pivotal moment where if she hadnt talked to katsura the two of them would have broken up she made the conscious decision to keep them together even though she was well aware of her feelings for makoto.

That to me is where her innocence ceases to exist. If shed simply backed off and let those two be it would have fallen apart and she could have gotten makoto on the rebound. Makoto is a nice big idiot of a scape coat, but because of her own decisions she's helped to put everyone in the situation there in now. So between her starting this mess and makoto taking it and running with it we come to the point were at now. This is by no means a solo effort thats caused all this and as such she carries just as much responsibility as the idiot wonder.

If she feels guilty about how things are now and won't tell katsura...well...hmmm..maybe just maybe you shouldnt have kissed him and later played the HS version of "doctor" with her boyfriend no? Sekai looks like an emotional pretzel...Every step and every word she's uttered for awhile now has been hypocritical.

All I can hope is that she has the clarity to make things right and tell katsura straight out that she has a emotional screw loose and apologize for jerking her chain this whole time.

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Old 2007-08-09, 16:16   Link #34
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Sigh...I see you guys still keep letting sekai get off easily. I think youd probably forgive her of murder...Guess that proves she puts on a pretty convincing act.
i dunno how i can answer with this : murder? something to forgive? an act? getting off easily?
this comment is rather offending if you ask me.
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Yea except for the fact that when she came across the pivotal moment where if she hadnt talked to katsura the two of them would have broken up she made the conscious decision to keep them together even though she was well aware of her feelings for makoto.
so?
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That to me is where her innocence ceases to exist. If shed simply backed off and let those two be it would have fallen apart and she could have gotten makoto on the rebound. Makoto is a nice big idiot of a scape coat, but because of her own decisions she's helped to put everyone in the situation there in now. So between her starting this mess and makoto taking it and running with it we come to the point were at now. This is by no means a solo effort thats caused all this and as such she carries just as much responsibility as the idiot wonder.
so, why didn't she back off huh? simply because she wanted both to be happy, end of the story. that part proves she at THIS point (not later on), she was willingly sacrificing herself for the both. She doesn't have the omnipotent sight like us, watchers, so of course, she isn't able to see it was beyond "incompability".
Quote:
If she feels guilty about how things are now and won't tell katsura...well...hmmm..maybe just maybe you shouldnt have kissed him and later played the HS version of "doctor" with her boyfriend no? Sekai looks like an emotional pretzel...Every step and every word she's uttered for awhile now has been hypocritical.
The kiss has NOTHING to do with it, and again, she didn't do it to attract makoto at all. otherwise, she would declare it and wouldn't even bother to keep going her "help".

it wasn't hypocritical per, much less a silly overboard of feelings she couldn't bear. this is her fault nevetherless, but far from being hypocritical.
Quote:
All I can hope is that she has the clarity to make things right and tell katsura straight out that she has a emotional screw loose and apologize for jerking her chain this whole time.
*sigh* the third party have to fix the mess that the most concerned person did?
i fail understanding this logic... again...
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Old 2007-08-09, 16:33   Link #35
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Sekai betrayed Kotonoha...stealing your friend's boyfriend is just wrong. If she was unsure of her feelings why did she hook them up to begin with?

It's not like Sekai is some random with no ties to Koto.

Even if I like a girl, if it's my friend's girlfriend, I'd never go for her. And I'd never forgive someone who does that to me, either. Sekai may not be at fault as much as Makoto, and she may not have to take responsibility and go solve it, but the absolute least she could do is stop cheating already. It was hard for me to blame Sekai after episode 5, because if it was a one-off it would be more tolerable, but seeing her jump in bed with her friend's boyfriend time after time is nothing short of disgusting from my point of view.
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Old 2007-08-09, 16:42   Link #36
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As i see it, it is Makoto who should tell Kotonoha, and Makoto alone. Yes, Sekai set the two up. Yes, she started the whole mess. But it is Makoto who came running to her, on his own accord. It is not Sekai who is 'going out' with Kotonoha, it is Makoto - thus it is his responsibility. She has told him to make things straight - rest is on Makoto's shoulders.
and when you see him obviously not doing anything to improve the situation what do you do? let him ignore it and for the situation to get worse? (oops that is just what they did...) if makoto wont budge his ass then sekai is the next person to do something about it...

copy pasta ~

just discussing what to do with him isnt going to help...wait ill correct myself...it wasnt a discussion at all ~ sekai was telling him but he still dodges the question...now for sekai as a responsible human being she should have done it in that case...(or just leave the bastard...cause i cant see how any girl can stand someone being so goddam stupid and inconsiderate!)

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*sigh* the third party have to fix the mess that the most concerned person did?
i fail understanding this logic... again...
and the logic i dont understand is how can someone just look on at the situation getting worse ~ cross their arms and say: "its not my fault you do it"
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Old 2007-08-10, 00:07   Link #37
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Sekai has responsibility in this...and she GOT involved when she didn't push Makoto away. If you notice she says stop but doesn't really push him away. She just says no and then lets him do it. The moment her actions happened she GOT herself involved and to not come clean of this (Because we can already see Makoto doesn't have the balls *or the brains*) is basically being irresponsible on her part.

In most cases a third party having to fix things isn't logical, but then again I don't remember a third party having sex with person A...AND I don't remember person A being a complete coward. That's like knowing it's wrong and still doing it...third party or not. Once that happens you become part of the problem.

I remember a quote from Spider-man...where Peter was promised 3000 dollars to stay in the ring for 3 minutes and gets screwed out of it. The guy who hands out the money says..."I fail to see how it's my problem". So he gets robbed shortly after and Peter lets the guy get away...to which the guy who got robbed looks at him and asks..."why didn't you do something?!" To which Peter replies, "I fail to see how it's my problem." After which his uncle is killed because Peter didn't do the right thing. While this is a little extreme in a sense it's the same thing basically. If we say it's not Sekai's problem then we're just letting her get away from the responsibility she placed upon HERSELF.
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Old 2007-08-10, 05:11   Link #38
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Sekai has responsibility in this...and she GOT involved when she didn't push Makoto away. If you notice she says stop but doesn't really push him away. She just says no and then lets him do it. The moment her actions happened she GOT herself involved and to not come clean of this (Because we can already see Makoto doesn't have the balls *or the brains*) is basically being irresponsible on her part.
I am not particularly fond of Sekai, but saying she should keep pushing Makoto away no matter what is not being very fair either. Yes, she did some dubious things along the way, but ultimately she was trying to stick Makoto and Kotonoha together, even when it was, obviously, not working. (Yes, not the best idea by far).

Her fault lies withing the fact that she keeps sending signals that she is, basically, an open deal as well (hello special training ?) while Makoto is 'going out' with Kotonoha, so she definitely has her fault in this situation. But in the end Makoto came running to her, despite her trying to get the other two bakas together. Makoto came to her. Her accepting him while he is still 'going out' with Kotonoha is definitely not very nice, but not something i am going to condemn her forever. She is not best friends with Kotonoha ... i don't know whether she is close enough to Kotonoha to be classified as a friend in the first place, more like acquaintance. (Though this is different for Kotonoha, seeing that Sekai is her only friend).

Breaking up with Kotonoha is Makoto's problem - he is the one going out with Kotonoha, not her. I don't see why should she be the one to say :"Oh, by the way - i am having sex with your boyfriend each and every night and he has ceased to like you long ago ... he just forgot to tell you". Again - his double relationship is Makoto's problem, and it is not fair to expect of Sekai to clean up all of his mess simply because Makoto himself has forgotten his mind in his pants. She tries to get him to talk to her, which Makoto should be doing from his own initiative. She definitely has a part of the blame to take for the current mess (She is the one who started the whole mess in the first place), but at this stage it is Makoto who has to settle things with Kotonoha. Then Sekai can go and have a heart-to-heart talk with Kotonoha, but not before Makoto. (And she is not endlessly brave either ... she is suffering from an immense guilt trip as well ... while Makoto keeps being completely oblivious).
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Old 2007-08-10, 05:32   Link #39
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With all the picking on Sekai by me you would think I hate her character ... however I said once before she is my favourite character in the series. Without Sekai there would be no School Days. Makoto would've continued to admire Kotonoha from afar, Kotonoha would have continued to admire him from afar and nothing would've happened. If Sekai did exist, but she acted more selfishly, she could have taken Makato for herself at the start, and those 2 could have lived happily ever after.

Not knowing anything about School Days, I rememeber watching the first clip for the first time and thinking this was just going to be another boring boy meets girl romance game/anime-thing. When Sekai planted one on Makoto out of nowhere then ran into the train I was shocked.

Anyways I agree with Meta and Death. Sekai isn't an unrelated third party in this. She's a friend of the 2, and she knowingly cheats on Koto. If she was completely moral, she would never have kissed Makoto, she would have never offered special training. She would also never have met Makoto at the train station, and continue to cheat over and over.

If Makoto won't break up, then it's her responsibility to stop the situation from escalating further. If Sekai was stronger, she could withold all contact from Makoto until he does the right thing and break up with Kotonoha. But she won't do that, and will instead continue to cheat (until of course they get caught)

But of course that would mean less drama and we can't have that.

I <3 School Days
Aceywacey is offline  
Old 2007-08-10, 06:14   Link #40
Darklightz
Wagering his life...
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Yes, Sekai has definitely involved herself too much in Makoto and Kotonoha's business,so she has part of the responsibility.

It's a shame though. I loved her character up to epsiode 5, I can certainly understand how it was getting too hard to fight her own feelings, but I was a bit disappointed in episode 6 when she just surrended to Makoto's lusts and didn't have the strenght to tell Kotonoha.

I looking forward to a good confrontation in episode 7,maybe some face slapping,we'll see
Darklightz is offline  
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