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Old 2007-08-10, 18:57   Link #161
Grey
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Most moral philosophies rely on three assumptions:
1. That the well-being of the individual is desirable.
2. That the well-being of the local group is desirable.
3. That the well-being of other groups is desirable.

The degree to which importance is placed on each is mostly what seperates the different philosophies. However, a moral system that ignores 2 and 3, and only considers 1 important is the very essence of selfishness. Logically speaking, such a system cannot be justified either.
You say that the aforementioned system is logically unjustified. Are you implying that the system is flawed because the importance of 2 and 3 follow from placing the importance of 1?

Offhand, it strikes me that the wellbeing of human groups may be important to AOs to the same degree that the wellbeing of plantlife is important to humans. The AOs need to maintain a food supply, certainly. But the guidelines for conduct that follow from 1, 2, and 3 are highly lenient, and how AOs act don't necessarily violate those guidelines. At worst their conduct may be sub-optimal. To sum up: I don't see that AOs would be immoral according to a system that follows from these assumptions.
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Old 2007-08-10, 19:14   Link #162
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Grey
You say that the aforementioned system is logically unjustified. Are you implying that the system is flawed because the importance of 2 and 3 follow from placing the importance of 1?
I'm not sure what you're getting at. It's quite natural for my order to be decreasingly important, and I'm not really making any value judgements on that fact. However, Awakened Beings don't seem to even acknowledge the existence of 2 and 3; and this is what makes them entirely selfish creatures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey
Offhand, it strikes me that the wellbeing of human groups may be important to AOs to the same degree that the wellbeing of plantlife is important to humans.
A much better comparison would be the way human hunter-gatherer societies who hunt monkeys as food. An implicit facet of this argument is that even when we have to kill, it's much better to do so while causing as little pain and suffering as possible.

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Originally Posted by Grey
The AOs need to maintain a food supply, certainly. But the guidelines for conduct that follow from 1, 2, and 3 are highly lenient, and how AOs act don't necessarily violate those guidelines. At worst their conduct may be sub-optimal. To sum up: I don't see that AOs would be immoral according to a system that follows from these assumptions.
Most of my points have been about how Awakened Beings treat one another.
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Old 2007-08-11, 01:15   Link #163
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I'm not sure what you're getting at. It's quite natural for my order to be decreasingly important, and I'm not really making any value judgements on that fact. However, Awakened Beings don't seem to even acknowledge the existence of 2 and 3; and this is what makes them entirely selfish creatures.
What makes selfishness logically immoral?
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Old 2007-08-11, 07:41   Link #164
4Tran
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What makes selfishness logically immoral?
Nothing; I didn't mean to imply that selfishness was automatically immoral. However, Awakened Beings are selfish to the exclusion of other considerations. And that is pretty much the essence of amorality.
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Old 2007-08-11, 08:27   Link #165
Anh_Minh
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Well, yes. They're a-moral. Without morality. That's what I've been saying.

My point was, just because you have the tool of "logic" doesn't mean you have the tool of "moral". The latter isn't derived purely from the former.

And a system of values with only 1) isn't any more illogical than one where 1), 2), and 3) are closer to what we'd recognize as a healthy balance.
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Old 2007-08-11, 08:50   Link #166
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
Well, yes. They're a-moral. Without morality. That's what I've been saying.
That's a finer point that you may realize. It's generally actions that are classified as immoral. And an amoral person has a much higher tendency to perform immoral acts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
My point was, just because you have the tool of "logic" doesn't mean you have the tool of "moral". The latter isn't derived purely from the former.
My point is that any creature that has the capacity to reason also has the capacity to exercise morality. Animals don't have the former, which is why they're excused from not having the latter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
And a system of values with only 1) isn't any more illogical than one where 1), 2), and 3) are closer to what we'd recognize as a healthy balance.
While a certain amount of selfishness is an evolutionary advantage, an utter lack of selflessness produces the very opposite effect.
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Old 2007-08-11, 09:27   Link #167
Anh_Minh
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My point is that any creature that has the capacity to reason also has the capacity to exercise morality. Animals don't have the former, which is why they're excused from not having the latter.
Yes, but why would they use what we humans call morality? We do for the reasons you cited above, but I don't think they really apply to them. That's why I don't blame them more than I would an animal, or a highly advanced robot who, despite a AI able of reasoning, is not programmed to act "morally".


Quote:
While a certain amount of selfishness is an evolutionary advantage, an utter lack of selflessness produces the very opposite effect.
Evolution is neither all important nor all powerful. Especially for AB. They're a relatively recent creation, and from the point of view of evolution, they're not even a separate species. (Since they come from humans and youmas, and don't reproduce.)

Evolutionary pressures are pretty mild, and if I were them, I'd worry more about overgrazing than about Claymores.
Spoiler for Manga, vol 12:


So, even if cooperative behaviour was better for the "species" as a whole,
Spoiler for Manga, ch 71:
they'd need to desire the welfare of the species. You can't get that through pure logic.
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Old 2007-08-11, 13:22   Link #168
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yes, but why would they use what we humans call morality? We do for the reasons you cited above, but I don't think they really apply to them. That's why I don't blame them more than I would an animal, or a highly advanced robot who, despite a AI able of reasoning, is not programmed to act "morally".
Why any nonhuman would decide to abide by morality is besides the point. When it comes to matters of morality, the question is whether they have the capacity to abide by a moral system, and whether they do so. I think that it's fairly obvious that the Awakened Beings would answer affirmative to the former and negative to the latter.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Evolution is neither all important nor all powerful. Especially for AB. They're a relatively recent creation, and from the point of view of evolution, they're not even a separate species. (Since they come from humans and youmas, and don't reproduce.)
I'm not really trying to argue that Awakened Beings necessarily work under an evolutionary framework. Instead, I brought that up to illustrate how a nonhuman could figure out the benefits of selflessness through observation and logic alone.
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Old 2007-08-11, 13:44   Link #169
Davidj
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yes, but why would they use what we humans call morality? We do for the reasons you cited above, but I don't think they really apply to them. That's why I don't blame them more than I would an animal, or a highly advanced robot who, despite a AI able of reasoning, is not programmed to act "morally".
Well it is true that the fact that their evil is innate and automatic means that there's no problem with going ahead and whacking them without trying to reason with, much less rehabilitate them.
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