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Old 2007-08-09, 20:43   Link #1041
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
Who cares about what they think, their culture or some other shit like that when the Silver Tribe tried multiple times to exterminate the Iron Tribe?!?
The most important thing is to stop the genocide and THEN you can understand whatever you like and anyway a crime like that shouldn't be forgiven.
Here lots of people talk about understanding, humanity and other crap like that only because they live in some safe country inside their hyper-technological houses (if compared to the houses of the Third World). When you have all it's easy to be highty and might, but when you see your friends and beloved ones exterminated by some enemy you don't want to understand him, forgiving him, talking to him: you only want to fucking kill him!!!
Go ask to the survivors of the Holocaust if they are so understandable and forgiving about the Nazis.
You're the ignorant one here, dude.
You missed my point, so I will say it again. How do you know the Bronze Tribe WANTED to attack the Iron Tribe? How do you know, that they weren't held hostage in someway, by the Silver Tribe, and FORCED to attack the Iron Tribe? What do we know about any of these races(outside of the humans who we are suppose to relate and sympathize with).

Do you kill the children of a murderer, because of the murderer's actions? Do you kill the children of Nazi's? Do the Holocaust Survivors have ANYTHING against the children of the Nazi's? What have the children done? You're basically preaching, to kill off all future offspring, because of what the parents did.

I can guarantee, without a shadow of a doubt, that Age would not follow someone like you. He wouldn't kill you, but he would not obey your orders, EVER. Not someone with genocide on their mind. There's a reason he follows D and her direction/path towards the future. And there's a reason she makes adjustments in her path, based on Age's reactions, feelings, circumstances, etc. Someone like her, is fit to be leader. Not someone like you.
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Old 2007-08-09, 21:00   Link #1042
grey_moon
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The thing is from what I can tell Roma Ro is using the destructiveness of the Iron Tribe as an excuse to wipe them out. If the planet wide purge did go ahead, then the Irons would have just given them another justification.

The Age universe seems to involve a lot more then just the Silvers, Irons and Bronzes, the Irons also need to win the hearts and minds of all the races that do support and are grateful to the Silver Tribe. Personally I think the last thing that humanity wants is to be installed as the "master of the universe" with everyone hating their guts and doing their best to overthrow them.

I'm still in two minds about the whole contracts and Gold Tribe issue. Once the Yuti's contract is made known, then I think the Gold's motive will be made clear. Right now to me it seems like the Golds are the producers to a show called Battle Royal on a universal level.
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Old 2007-08-09, 21:20   Link #1043
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Its certain that Age knows more than he has been telling. He does not know every little detail, but the Golden Tribe has made sure that he knows the broad outline of what they(The Golden Tribe) said will/must happen.

I think thats part of the reason why Age is always so calm and peaceful(when not in Bellcross form) Its because he knows exactly what he is fighting for and that he trusts the Golden Tribe/Deaneara absolutely.
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Old 2007-08-10, 01:27   Link #1044
ipernorris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Do you kill the children of a murderer, because of the murderer's actions? Do you kill the children of Nazi's? Do the Holocaust Survivors have ANYTHING against the children of the Nazi's? What have the children done? You're basically preaching, to kill off all future offspring, because of what the parents did.
I don't think you are a survivor of the Holocaust so it's quite arrogant on your part to talk for them... it's easy to talk about sweet crap when one has evreything and lives in a safe country. Here lots of people sounds like Cagalli from Gundam Seed...

Quote:
I can guarantee, without a shadow of a doubt, that Age would not follow someone like you. He wouldn't kill you, but he would not obey your orders, EVER. Not someone with genocide on their mind. There's a reason he follows D and her direction/path towards the future. And there's a reason she makes adjustments in her path, based on Age's reactions, feelings, circumstances, etc. Someone like her, is fit to be leader.
The order thing was just an example: it's a fact that Bellcross actively fought for Taro's invasion so he contribute to the genocide. When Mehitaka asked if he was sad he replied that Deianeira will lead evreyone into a path where these things won't happen again, it's not that he said he was sad. He knows that events like this are necessary to reach peace.

Quote:
Not someone like you.
Someone like me? Do you know me or what? Shut your trap moron: you don't know anything about me so I'm not going to accept offenses by some random arrogant and ignorant guy who thinks that the world is based on peace and love.

Anyway I thought about the political situation in Heroic Age's universe and it's not like the Silver Tribe is united about the destruction of the Iron Tribe. Yesterday I was quite annoyed by the Cagalish-retarded-sweet-crap I read around so I exaggerated a little with the genocide thing but my philosphy is one basically: destroy evreyone who wants to destroy me, talk and understand evreyone who wants to co-exist with me.
The "peace party" deserves to survive, on Iron and Silver Tribe, while the "genocide party" on both sides deserves to die. This means that Romuro, the idiotic royal duo and relative lackeys deserve to die: during the war or after a trial.
Even Yuti deserves that as she considered the other tribes just slaves of the Silver Tribe; this is a whole different attitude against with Age's one.
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Old 2007-08-10, 02:31   Link #1045
grey_moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
Anyway I thought about the political situation in Heroic Age's universe and it's not like the Silver Tribe is united about the destruction of the Iron Tribe. Yesterday I was quite annoyed by the Cagalish-retarded-sweet-crap I read around so I exaggerated a little with the genocide thing but my philosphy is one basically: destroy evreyone who wants to destroy me, talk and understand evreyone who wants to co-exist with me.
The "peace party" deserves to survive, on Iron and Silver Tribe, while the "genocide party" on both sides deserves to die. This means that Romuro, the idiotic royal duo and relative lackeys deserve to die: during the war or after a trial.
Even Yuti deserves that as she considered the other tribes just slaves of the Silver Tribe; this is a whole different attitude against with Age's one.
Kinda change of opinions, but hey that's what makes us humans

But wouldn't it be a little more productive if you did this the other way around?

"but my philosphy is one basically: destroy evreyone who wants to destroy me, talk and understand evreyone who wants to co-exist with me."

Change to

but my philosphy is one basically: talk and understand evreyone who wants to co-exist with me THEN destroy evreyone who wants to destroy me,

Because I believe what D is implying is that the Silvers current course of action could be a misunderstanding. For example lets say Rome Ro knows that the Irons will inherit the Gold's power and therefore maniputlated the situation so that everyone believes that the Irons will destroy the universe. By your philosophy if people do believe this, then they have the right to wipe out the Irons. What D is doing is wanting to find out the whys, basically your second scenario. So shouldn't that make D a good guy and not a "Cagalish-retarded-sweet-crap"?
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Old 2007-08-10, 02:48   Link #1046
ipernorris
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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
Kinda change of opinions, but hey that's what makes us humans
Yesterday I was quite pissed, like I was when I heard Cagalli nonsense in Gundam Seed Destiny... if you watched that show you know what I mean.

Quote:
"but my philosphy is one basically: destroy evreyone who wants to destroy me, talk and understand evreyone who wants to co-exist with me."

Change to

but my philosphy is one basically: talk and understand evreyone who wants to co-exist with me THEN destroy evreyone who wants to destroy me,
It's obvious that before doing anything you try to understand if someone wants to destroy you or to co-exist with you. But this isn't always possible and facts can talk alone: if an uknown tribe comes from only-God-knows-where and attack Earth killing billions of people it's quite clear they want to wipe out humanity. At this point the priority is to stop the genocide (even wiping the enemy out if it's for survival) and then understand the reasons. After understanding the reasons the outcomes varies:
1) if it's only a party within the tribe then put to death that party (->Romuro and Yuti).
2) if it's the entire tribe who thinks to be highty and might then wipe them out because if you spare them now they will create problem in the future.

Quote:
Because I believe what D is implying is that the Silvers current course of action could be a misunderstanding. For example lets say Rome Ro knows that the Irons will inherit the Gold's power and therefore maniputlated the situation so that everyone believes that the Irons will destroy the universe. By your philosophy is people do believe this, then they have the right to wipe out the Irons. What D is doing is wanting to find out the whys, basically your second scenario. So shouldn't that make D a good guy and not a "Cagalish-retarded-sweet-crap"?
Whatever the reasons are a genocide is still a genocide: the worst known crime.
It can't remain unpunished so the responsible party, at least, must pay with life.
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Old 2007-08-10, 03:07   Link #1047
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
Yesterday I was quite pissed, like I was when I heard Cagalli nonsense in Gundam Seed Destiny... if you watched that show you know what I mean.
Ah you must have missed me spitting out ground teeth on the GSD thread then

If you are on about punishing individuals for their role in genocide, then I am all for that. It was the genocide for genocide, (or enslavement of the whole race) that got me.

I'm in an elderly folks area atm, and lots of the people actually were alive when the Japanese invaded China. Now the good thing is most of them know the difference between the people who committed the act and the new generation of Japanese. But every so often I meet someone who really does believe that the only good Japanese is a dead one and meeting someone like that in real life is imho really shocking. <- I am in no way putting down these people's experiences, just I never believe that the children should pay for their parents actions, which is what genocide in return for genocide or racial enslavement would be.
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Old 2007-08-10, 03:56   Link #1048
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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
If you are on about punishing individuals for their role in genocide, then I am all for that. It was the genocide for genocide, (or enslavement of the whole race) that got me.
Ok but those individuals are quite consistent in the Silver Tribe for sure: the majority of them agreed on Iron Tribe destruction... ok it can be a misunderstanding or whatever but dead lifes cannot be brought back so a genocide remains a genocide, no matter of the reasons. In World War 2 the only way to stop Nazis was to crush them and Germany was enslaved to US and URSS for fourty years... of course I'm referring to the term enslavement as a metaphor: it isn't in the Medieval Age sense. It was split into two and treated as a satellite country... ah no pardon, allied country!
So German population payed dearly, even the later generations, for the crimes committed by the Nazis. So what I'm saying it's not like is unreal or what: the dear Silvers guys why didn't bother going on Earth and talking things out with humans before launch a systematic genocide against them? Why humans must "understand things" while Silver don't have?
And anyway they're quite cold-blooded: do you remember Titarros? They decided to wipe out that planet only because its tribe dared to disobey to the lords of the universe...

Quote:
I'm in an elderly folks area atm, and lots of the people actually were alive when the Japanese invaded China. Now the good thing is most of them know the difference between the people who committed the act and the new generation of Japanese. But every so often I meet someone who really does believe that the only good Japanese is a dead one and meeting someone like that in real life is imho really shocking. <- I am in no way putting down these people's experiences, just I never believe that the children should pay for their parents actions, which is what genocide in return for genocide or racial enslavement would be.
I could be wrong but young japanese, like all youngs in rich countries, couldn't care less about wars: the important things are sex and playstation to them.
The world, for them, must be governed with peace and love anyway, without any weapons (->Cagallish crap). I can't stand this retarded way to view the world.
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Old 2007-08-10, 06:58   Link #1049
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Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
I could be wrong but young japanese, like all youngs in rich countries, couldn't care less about wars: the important things are sex and playstation to them.
What a well-thought through and reasoned blanket statement. In the face of such an intelligent and logical statement, I can't help but be completely won over by all your aggressive and hypocritical views on genocide and war.

Young people care about wars. Young people have to fight most of them. Young people are generally those protesting them. If your argument is about apathy, apathy is just as rife throughout the entire population of the developed world as it is among youth. But don't think that all youth is self-absorbed and ignorant, since that's not the case in the cultural movements I've observed. In the meantime, let's keep the offensive over-generalizations and hateful misunderstandings to a minimum.

Ep 18

Damn good episode. It's not the first time that this show has been far from romantic in its depiction of war, but this has been that at its most raw. Which is good, since it makes for some genuine drama... although it does make the humanity (and its two leaders in particular) very difficult to sympathize with. I didn't much like this show to begin with, but it's been slowly impressing me more and more in recent weeks, with this ep being among the best in the series. Good to see it really trying to be challenging in its approach to what is ethical and what is not in war.
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Old 2007-08-10, 08:02   Link #1050
ipernorris
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Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
What a well-thought through and reasoned blanket statement. In the face of such an intelligent and logical statement, I can't help but be completely won over by all your aggressive and hypocritical views on genocide and war.

Young people care about wars. Young people have to fight most of them. Young people are generally those protesting them. If your argument is about apathy, apathy is just as rife throughout the entire population of the developed world as it is among youth. But don't think that all youth is self-absorbed and ignorant, since that's not the case in the cultural movements I've observed. In the meantime, let's keep the offensive over-generalizations and hateful misunderstandings to a minimum.
All protests I've seen against wars are protests against US wars, while the others are non-existant!
And anyway they only protest using obvious slogans and without proposing any realistical alternative... I'm sorry but that isn't protesting, is just pretending to protest for their purpose (anti-imperialism, excuse to not go to school etc).
Anyway we're way off-topic here, let's end this.
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Old 2007-08-10, 08:05   Link #1051
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The Silvers fear the Iron tribe for philosophical reasons.

The Iron tribe represent something that they truly abhor and are afraid of: EMOTIONS

The fact that the Iron tribe shares a lot in common with the Gold tribe of the old days scares them even more

Their belief is being attacked at its core. It's very painful for them.
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Old 2007-08-10, 08:18   Link #1052
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ah, all i wanted was to talk about Heroic Age, i really don't want to know what's people's personal opinions about real life events or some serious topics, if i want some of that, all i have to do is head out at the next general elections/political rally...

so lets just get back to the anime, and leave reality behind! :P

i was quite interested about the statement saying the Gold Tribe was like the Iron Tribe, we can see why they assist them. they reminded them of what they once were.

The question is, what do the Gold Tribe want? Do they want to see another race like them to inherit their position? or do they wish to forge a different path for them?

As a side note, oh yeah ep18 fleet battle scenes was excellent.

loved it, and i want mooooore!!
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Old 2007-08-10, 08:22   Link #1053
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Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO View Post
The question is, what do the Gold Tribe want? Do they want to see another race like them to inherit their position? or do they wish to forge a different path for them?
Seems to me that they're enjoying this game of Chess.

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As a side note, oh yeah ep18 fleet battle scenes was excellent.
Indeed, and this is the first time we've seen one that lasted longer then 3/4 minutes. We should see an even bigger one once the time for the Silver Vs Iron starts --- though then we also have RAWR Yuti action to look forward to.
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Old 2007-08-10, 23:06   Link #1054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
I don't think you are a survivor of the Holocaust so it's quite arrogant on your part to talk for them... it's easy to talk about sweet crap when one has evreything and lives in a safe country. Here lots of people sounds like Cagalli from Gundam Seed...
I couldn't stand Cagalli. She was my most hated character in the entire Gundam SEED Universe. So don't pair me up with someone as her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ipernorris
Someone like me? Do you know me or what? Shut your trap moron: you don't know anything about me so I'm not going to accept offenses by some random arrogant and ignorant guy who thinks that the world is based on peace and love.
Calling me a moron, arrogant, and ignorant.... Usually a person who throws those words out in insult to someone else, is reflecting their own issues. There is no safe country in this world anymore. 9/11 proved that. Not when there are fanatics who will do anything to kill you, because you don't share their beliefs.

I have nothing against fighting, and there is such a thing as a just war. But you must still be wary of becoming what you might most hate(which happens alot in Human History). I have no problem with killing enemy soldiers. But slaughtering innocent lives for no reason other than revenge, is insane, and dangerous. Americans in general, are not against war, and fighting. We're against senseless, or mindless, or murderous bloodshed.
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Old 2007-08-10, 23:13   Link #1055
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
Seems to me that they're enjoying this game of Chess.
That is my main issue with them. As someone earlier pointed out, Age seems to trust them, but right now the universe is embroiled in a huge war that is costing countless lives. I can't see how the two depictions (Age's trust and events that they had a hand in creating), can go hand in hand.

Maybe there are 2 groups of Gold. The ones that wanted the Irons to have a fighting chance and the ones that wanted to leave it to the Silvers. But how does what Purome Ou says fit into all of this?

I hope that this isn't the good (bad) old "must destroy the old, to bring forth the new" barrel of poo.
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Old 2007-08-10, 23:54   Link #1056
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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
Maybe there are 2 groups of Gold. The ones that wanted the Irons to have a fighting chance and the ones that wanted to leave it to the Silvers. But how does what Purome Ou says fit into all of this?
That's what i think happened.

We know from what is shown to us, that there were six figures of the Gold Tribe, surrounding the sphere holding the universe.

however when the Iron Tribe came calling just as they were leaving the scene, only two (or was it three? Can't remember and im at work right now.) stopped, and turn back to go see who this late arrive were.

so the possibility is there, that at the beginning they favoured the silver, but then at the last minute when all of them were not there, those that responded to the Iron Tribe changed their opinions from the initial choice.

its a possibility, and i said gazillions of times ,yet no-one bothers to comment on it. dammn you people, damn you aaaalllll.....!!!!!

*weeps from Saturday Working blues*

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Old 2007-08-11, 01:31   Link #1057
grey_moon
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its a possibility, and i said gazillions of times ,yet no-one bothers to comment on it. dammn you people, damn you aaaalllll.....!!!!!

*weeps from Saturday Working blues*

Chin up its a great theory, I joined this thread quite late and at first only to make stupid comments about D and Age

Hope your work goes by okay
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Old 2007-08-11, 14:40   Link #1058
ipernorris
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
I have nothing against fighting, and there is such a thing as a just war. But you must still be wary of becoming what you might most hate(which happens alot in Human History). I have no problem with killing enemy soldiers. But slaughtering innocent lives for no reason other than revenge, is insane, and dangerous. Americans in general, are not against war, and fighting. We're against senseless, or mindless, or murderous bloodshed.
Yes and Vietnam is a good example of that... where the "Knigths of Justice" napalmed millions of people.

Anyway I think most guys here miss one thing: a war is different from a genocide. Bronze and Silver Tribe wanted a genocide, not a war against the Iron Tribe so if humans have to use that as well I think it's legit. Not because for mere revenge, but because if someone doesn't want to co-exist with you and want to destroy you there isn't any other choice other than destroy him. But as Heroic Age is a tv show and there are kids around it won't end this way: at the end they will find an agreement and they will live happily together. I hope at least Romuro is put to death anyway!
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Old 2007-08-11, 15:34   Link #1059
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
Yes and Vietnam is a good example of that... where the "Knigths of Justice" napalmed millions of people.

Anyway I think most guys here miss one thing: a war is different from a genocide. Bronze and Silver Tribe wanted a genocide, not a war against the Iron Tribe so if humans have to use that as well I think it's legit. Not because for mere revenge, but because if someone doesn't want to co-exist with you and want to destroy you there isn't any other choice other than destroy him. But as Heroic Age is a tv show and there are kids around it won't end this way: at the end they will find an agreement and they will live happily together. I hope at least Romuro is put to death anyway!
There was alot of problems with Vietnam. For starters, China and Russia were bankrolling the North Vietnamese with Money and weapons against the South Vietnamese. Also, the North Vietnamese were KNOWN for hiding weapons in villages and cities. Because the war was run by the politicians in Congress, the military wasn't allowed to fight the war to the best of it's potential. Eventually, America pulled out of Vietnam and abandoned it's South Vietnamese Allies because of the lack of support for the war, and South Vietnam fell. North Vietnam was the one invading South Vietnam. America sided with South Vietnam(but was hindered by the Politicians controlling every aspect of the war), while Russia and China sided with the invading North Vietnamese. Really simple concepts to understand.
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Old 2007-08-11, 15:36   Link #1060
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Can we please stay on topic people --- if you want to talk about things like that, then do it in pm.

Now for a question, will we see RAWR YUTI IN ACTION tomorrow?
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