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View Poll Results: Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 11 25.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 18 40.91%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 10 22.73%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 9.09%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 2.27%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-08-19, 13:08   Link #61
Fabien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead View Post
3) While you're retasking to chase the Numbers down in urban combat Jail sneaks off to find something else to throw at you at a later date.
WHen you're as cornered as RF6 is, you go for the immediate threats. A future potential threat is less important.
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Old 2007-08-19, 13:10   Link #62
Kha
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Originally Posted by Fabien View Post
WHen you're as cornered as RF6 is, you go for the immediate threats. A future potential threat is less important.
And drag the series by a few episodes, and when they run out of budget we get crappy animation for an EVA finale!
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Old 2007-08-19, 13:14   Link #63
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Gearhead View Post
Problem:

1) If you swat Cradle out of the sky you run the risk of killing Vivio.
a) Vivio isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. If killing the Cradle means killing Vivio - uh, Nanoha, be professional.
b) Cradle attack tactics are not limited to destruction. In any case, I doubt the Cradle got its reputation by being destroyable with human mage firepower. The point is to have maximum force available to engage the Cradle.

Quote:
2) While you're amassing your forces to vape Cradle the Numbers have gotten into the city and have rendered bombardment useless against them.
That's why you engage the ground pounding Numbers first, since they were so nicely in the open. But if it comes down to it, given a world destroying threat, if it comes down to destroying a few hectares of city, so be it.

Quote:
3) While you're retasking to chase the Numbers down in urban combat Jail sneaks off to find something else to throw at you at a later date.
1) Immediate threats as mentioned.
2) If you finish the ground pounding Numbers fast, you can quickly come to his base and make a fast storm of it instead of slugging it through slowly (if at all). Good correlation of forces equals high rate of advance. Poor correlation of forces means defeat or at best a creep advance rate. The Soviets actually have a nomogram depicting this basic principle of war. Conclusion, you may well actually get to him faster this way.
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Old 2007-08-19, 13:14   Link #64
Gearhead
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
There's no point in sending Fate after Jail if she can't capture or disable him.
An Enforcer is a one mage army. Of COURSE she's there to stomp him into the ground. I fully expect everything short of 'Aku wo tatsu tsurugi' when she gets there.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Hayate would probably be ideal for that while unisoned with Rein. She doesn't even need to defeat the numbers. She just needs to keep Jail from moving.
Except that Hayate has the subtly of a thermonuclear weapon. Unisoned with Rein she's a doomsday weapon and she wouldn't be able to hold Jail because Jail knows they want to capture him. Hayate's lightest attack spell would probably erase his base from the face of the planet.

They need to disable, but not destroy, the Cradle. Which requires a surgical strike by people with experience in assaulting hostile installations.

They need a group of people who can fight in urban warfare situations against the Numbers.

They also need some more bodies at Jail's base to grab him before he squirms loose. They don't want him dead because they want to pick his brain to find out what he's left behind as a spoilsport measure.
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Old 2007-08-19, 13:15   Link #65
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Caro vs Lutecia: Panzer Dragon
Subaru vs Ginga: Street Fighter
Teana vs Nove, Wendi, Deed and bunch of Gadjets: Metal Gear Solid on hardest difficulty

and Scag obviously played Blizzard games before
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Old 2007-08-19, 13:18   Link #66
Nightengale
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Well, it's not like RF6 were completely informed of everything prior to mission assignment. They learned of the extra powerful AMF upon entering, and the separate Reactor/Throne after that too. Otherwise, a better planning could had been in order. Vita was being ridiculously stubborn too, I suppose.

On a lighter note, lol at yuri-vision for Teana and Subaru.
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Old 2007-08-19, 13:18   Link #67
Gearhead
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Vivio isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. If killing the Cradle means killing Vivio - uh, Nanoha, be professional.
Did you just suggest the title character leaving a small, defenseless child hanging out to dry in what is, still, essentially a magical girl series?
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Old 2007-08-19, 13:19   Link #68
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Kha View Post
That said, we don't know how long it takes to rearm the transporters, or what's the effective range of those things...
Well, transport distances can be interdimensional even with purely human resources and takes less than a minute to set up from what we've seen onscreen - I'm sure a computer and a ship will do better (when the TSAB guys got ambushed in Nanoha's, they seemed to have pulled them out fast and without problems).

Further I think all aces/knights except Hayate and Nanoha had already demonstrated self-transport ability (and I'd be shocked if those two hadn't learnt it these ten years). So Plan B is that they just drop the Forwards off against the Numbers and have the Aces and Knights do self-transport (Shamal can transport the Forwards around if need be).
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Old 2007-08-19, 13:20   Link #69
Mirificus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead View Post
Problem:

1) If you swat Cradle out of the sky you run the risk of killing Vivio.
That's all the more reason to concentrate on the Cradle. Rescuing Vivio would require even more forces than merely destroying the Cradle. If you're going to rescue Vivio, you make sure you have enough powerful mages to overcome any obstacles at the Cradle and do it fast.

Quote:
2) While you're amassing your forces to vape Cradle the Numbers have gotten into the city and have rendered bombardment useless against them.

3) While you're retasking to chase the Numbers down in urban combat Jail sneaks off to find something else to throw at you at a later date.
When you have limited forces, you need to limit your objectives accordingly. Sending forces on a secondary mission is not worth the risk of losing one of the decisive battles.

You can never have enough forces at the decisive point.
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Old 2007-08-19, 13:23   Link #70
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Gearhead View Post
Did you just suggest the title character leaving a small, defenseless child hanging out to dry in what is, still, essentially a magical girl series?
Yes, but if we are grading this based on Magical Girl series, their attempt to "protect everyone" even by spreading themselves thin is stereotypical MG fare and thus a pass. Since we are grading on something close to tactical standards...
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Old 2007-08-19, 13:31   Link #71
Mirificus
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An Enforcer is a one mage army. Of COURSE she's there to stomp him into the ground. I fully expect everything short of 'Aku wo tatsu tsurugi' when she gets there.
She didn't do too well against those two numbers the last time around. What logic tells you that this would be any different?

Quote:
Except that Hayate has the subtly of a thermonuclear weapon. Unisoned with Rein she's a doomsday weapon and she wouldn't be able to hold Jail because Jail knows they want to capture him. Hayate's lightest attack spell would probably erase his base from the face of the planet.
I don't really see a problem with that.

Quote:
They need to disable, but not destroy, the Cradle. Which requires a surgical strike by people with experience in assaulting hostile installations.
All the more reason to send Fate there.

Quote:
They need a group of people who can fight in urban warfare situations against the Numbers.
That's a far lesser threat than the other ones they're facing. What are they going to do? Destroy empty buildings?

Quote:
They also need some more bodies at Jail's base to grab him before he squirms loose. They don't want him dead because they want to pick his brain to find out what he's left behind as a spoilsport measure.
Hayate can make sure he won't ever leave under his own power.
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Old 2007-08-19, 13:34   Link #72
An Hero in Disguise
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Did you just suggest the title character leaving a small, defenseless child hanging out to dry in what is, still, essentially a magical girl series?
In OC thread I suggested blasting the Cradle with Arc-en-Ciel ASAP

- - -

On topic: after watching the episode I can hardly imagine Vita getting out of this mess without serious consequnces ...
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Old 2007-08-19, 13:34   Link #73
Chaos2Frozen
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Wow... 1-2 hours out of the episode and you're already finding fault with them... ?

Tell me, you've seen this coming a mile away, everybody has... Were you two just saving it all up so the both can rant about it when it actually happens?
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Old 2007-08-19, 13:36   Link #74
Mirificus
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Wow... 1-2 hours out of the episode and you're already finding fault with them... ?
I like Hayate but I can't help it if she's portrayed as an incompetent commander
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Old 2007-08-19, 13:38   Link #75
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
I like Hayate but I can't help it if she's portrayed as an incompetent commander
To a normal, average anime-watcher, the tactics involve are reasonable enough.

This show wasn't meant to impress the other types of humans.
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Old 2007-08-19, 13:39   Link #76
An Hero in Disguise
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Wow... 1-2 hours out of the episode and you're already finding fault with them... ?

Tell me, you've seen this coming a mile away, everybody has, were you just saving it all up so you two can rant about it when it actually happens?
Heh, I'm actually glad that RF6 is performing ineffectively (again ). But I agree with the mentioned points that they could've theoretically planned their actions better. The episode itself is really good though.

- - -

Ah, I kinda missed it - what exactly made Hayate considerably exhausted there? Was she performing her nukes off-screen?
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Old 2007-08-19, 13:42   Link #77
Gearhead
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Applying real tactics to a magical girl show is kind of like bringing up real physics.

All it does is kill catgirls.

Sit back and watch the girls bring about a miracle.
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Old 2007-08-19, 13:51   Link #78
Nightengale
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Wow... 1-2 hours out of the episode and you're already finding fault with them... ?

Tell me, you've seen this coming a mile away, everybody has... Were you two just saving it all up so the both can rant about it when it actually happens?
It's called dissection with love.

While I can see the overall flaws that was necessary to the conditional team-separation for different location battles, due to half the cast lacking flight abilities and the tone and approach they were going for since this is anime being anime, I thought it wasn't too bad in a way.

First off, information was shown to be inefficiently managed. Some vitals came after deployment like the extra-powerful AMF which reduces mage effectiveness (( upon discovery )) and the separation due to location difference, alongside with Vita's ridiculous insistence. It can be argued that it might've been different had they known all along.

Jail not attempting to escape was a little lol last episode due to him being ALONE, but it does look like he has some important specimens, and it does seem like a large complex. Utilizing Sein for indirect combat assist was a little... since it is a pair of above AAA mages, but I'll give slack.

The Forwards can't really be anywhere else but dealing with the grounds, since even Caro and Elio are not exactly that effective in air. An army of Type-2s seem to be capable of outranging them even. The weaker Numbers were shown to be highlighted in a more tactical light, handling the team separation and the threat of Subaru's IS well using Ginga...well, so long as there's no "power of love awakening" device at hand.
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Old 2007-08-19, 13:55   Link #79
Jimmy C
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My assessment of the situation:
They can't risk getting bogged down at any stage if they try to take the objectives in turn. Ark assumes the defense of the capital will be brief, maybe yes, maybe no. What if the objective of the threat on the capital is merely to draw away forces from the Cradle long enough for it to reach its firing position? Strategically, I'd be willing to leave the capital to its fate. Hope I can neutralise Scaglietti and the Cradle then return to the Capital before it's too late. But I don't think anyone in RF6 is willing to leave the Capital nearly helpless. So someone has to go, that's why they sent the ones that would make the least difference in additional combat capability there, plus one senior combatant.
Scaglietti and the Cradle has to be dealt with at the same time. They don't what contingency plan he has for the Cradle if he dies prematurely. They also don't know what backup plan he has in case they neutralize the Cradle in time. This way, they have teams in place in both locations should any such plans get executed.
In conclusion, it's a bad situation, it can't be changed, so do your best with what you got. Perhaps Hayate should have had a larger force to begin with, but since episode 4, it looks like RF6's squads are the largest she could hope to get.
PS. Ark's analogy with an artillery battalion is inaccurate. That's a force with units with uniform cambat power. RF6 is a mixed force with units with varying capabilities and weaknesses. Try a small force of tanks, infantry and fighter planes instead. Facing HUGE armies of tanks, soldiers and planes coming from 3 different directions.
And look at it from a dramatic point of view. The more dire the situation, the greater the victory! Nothing makes the viewers cheer like snatching victory from the jaws of defeat!
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Old 2007-08-19, 14:07   Link #80
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