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Old 2007-08-28, 03:28   Link #121
Ultima_Rasengan05
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I guess Makoto really is immature and goes to the girl with same mentality as his (which is always being horny almost 24/7 when he's around either Kotonoha or Sekai) just to choose who to side with. Thats pretty much how he sees it, although I do see some kind of pattern during the past two episodes.
If he sees Kotonoha being bullied right in front of his eyes and she goes off being sad, he suddenly sides with Kotonoha just like that.
If he's with Sekai, he thinks he can just "do it" with Sekai since she does seem to have the same feelings as Makoto and such, thus making him choose Sekai's side.

Just like what you said Kayos, he truly is indecisive and clueless about all of these strong emotions and feelings that are being thrown around right in front of his face.
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Old 2007-08-28, 04:09   Link #122
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It's weird... Hayate no Gotoku has probably the best male lead for a harem series that I can think of... and School Days has the worst.

Harem series usually degrade into one thing: a blank male lead that's just there to give females something to latch onto, but in reality is not needed at all, because the fans almost always support the females, not the potential couples. But what we get with HnG is a male lead whose happiness is just as important as that of the girls with whom he interacts, and with School Days we get a guy most of us wish never existed. Kinda puts a whole new level of respect on most Harem male leads, doesn't it?

He went from being the typical guy of a harem series (clueless, weak-willed, etc.) to being a very dislikeable, fully developed character. In a way, that sets him apart. He is selfish, thoughtless, dangerously impulsive, ridiculously dishonest, and has no remorse for what he does.

Forget perv; he's a complete lech. I can forgive losing interest in a girl you've liked simply because you became disillusioned after you got with her. I can forgive the idea that he's this awkward and horny teenage boy, because, well, teenage boys are awkward and horny (did that even come out right?). I can't forgive not being straightforward about his loss of interest. He has no feelings for Kotonoha, and has gone for Seikai only because she made him aware of the possibility in episode 1. To be honest, he's the kind of guy who would have sex with a warm, buttered bagel if it looked attractive to him.

He basically got with the girl he faps off about at night, realizes that the real thing is harder to get off on, decides it's too much work (even as she opens up to the idea), moves on to the next best thing just to get his quick fix, and will probably discard the next best thing the moment he finds something better. It's not just some stupid kid who made a couple of mistakes in the spirit of youth. This is a very weak character who only knows how to indulge in the things he wants, and only seeks advice to get those things. He's not interested in a relationship, and he's not concerned with the consequences of not being interested in a relationship; to be frank, this case makes many adulterous situations look saintly. You know what? This isn't even weak-willed. This is all premeditated.

No one can fault him for losing interest in someone he likes; that's something that happens in life. But the way he carries on with someone else disgusts me. The "Boys will be boys" argument phails here. Phails. Hard.
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Old 2007-08-28, 04:26   Link #123
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^^That pretty much sums it all up for Makoto.
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Old 2007-08-28, 10:06   Link #124
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Yeah, I enjoyed the synopsis, a good read. I would add that he's not just letting Kotonoha be clueless about the situation, he actually got annoyed because she tried to get closer to him after he started seeing Sekai behind her back. That's some nerve, acting like she's supposed to know that he doesn't really care for her even though he hasn't broken up with her.
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Old 2007-08-29, 14:24   Link #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fieryshadowcard View Post
It's weird... Hayate no Gotoku has probably the best male lead for a harem series that I can think of... and School Days has the worst.

Harem series usually degrade into one thing: a blank male lead that's just there to give females something to latch onto, but in reality is not needed at all, because the fans almost always support the females, not the potential couples. But what we get with HnG is a male lead whose happiness is just as important as that of the girls with whom he interacts, and with School Days we get a guy most of us wish never existed. Kinda puts a whole new level of respect on most Harem male leads, doesn't it?

He went from being the typical guy of a harem series (clueless, weak-willed, etc.) to being a very dislikeable, fully developed character. In a way, that sets him apart. He is selfish, thoughtless, dangerously impulsive, ridiculously dishonest, and has no remorse for what he does.

Forget perv; he's a complete lech. I can forgive losing interest in a girl you've liked simply because you became disillusioned after you got with her. I can forgive the idea that he's this awkward and horny teenage boy, because, well, teenage boys are awkward and horny (did that even come out right?). I can't forgive not being straightforward about his loss of interest. He has no feelings for Kotonoha, and has gone for Seikai only because she made him aware of the possibility in episode 1. To be honest, he's the kind of guy who would have sex with a warm, buttered bagel if it looked attractive to him.

He basically got with the girl he faps off about at night, realizes that the real thing is harder to get off on, decides it's too much work (even as she opens up to the idea), moves on to the next best thing just to get his quick fix, and will probably discard the next best thing the moment he finds something better. It's not just some stupid kid who made a couple of mistakes in the spirit of youth. This is a very weak character who only knows how to indulge in the things he wants, and only seeks advice to get those things. He's not interested in a relationship, and he's not concerned with the consequences of not being interested in a relationship; to be frank, this case makes many adulterous situations look saintly. You know what? This isn't even weak-willed. This is all premeditated.

No one can fault him for losing interest in someone he likes; that's something that happens in life. But the way he carries on with someone else disgusts me. The "Boys will be boys" argument phails here. Phails. Hard.
Ah, at least he will make a lot more progress then any other guy in Harem Animes...Of course, now if he can only smooth out his flaws and learn to be a pickup artist but its pretty much all over, he is so dead in 4...3...2...1...
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Old 2007-08-29, 14:40   Link #126
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If he's not dead by then, we'll just write his name in a notebook and wait 40 seconds.
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Old 2007-08-29, 16:05   Link #127
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I think Yuuichi's the best male lead this genre has seen, if you can put Kanon in this genre anyway. He's someone whom I could believe girls would fall for.

Makoto sets a new standard for terrible male leads, but I have to admit he does have a deeper (though not necessarily better and in fact far more dislikable) character than the typical "clueless and useless yet nice at heart so the girls like him" crap.
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Old 2007-08-29, 16:46   Link #128
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Originally Posted by AvatarST View Post
I think Yuuichi's the best male lead this genre has seen, if you can put Kanon in this genre anyway. He's someone whom I could believe girls would fall for.
Haruhiko (Gift) > Yuuichi

Quote:
Makoto sets a new standard for terrible male leads, but I have to admit he does have a deeper (though not necessarily better and in fact far more dislikable) character than the typical "clueless and useless yet nice at heart so the girls like him" crap.
Don't really know about having a deeper character ... though who knows But he is more interesting to watch than most harem leads simply because an animal like him is a very rare (if not non-existent) sight in anime, while the "kind but clueless guys who is afraid to even touch a girls hand" are rather abundant I don't see any male lead beating Makoto on the hate scale anytime soon... he will indeed have a special place among the harem leads
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Old 2007-08-29, 16:58   Link #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AvatarST View Post
Makoto sets a new standard for terrible male leads, but I have to admit he does have a deeper (though not necessarily better and in fact far more dislikable) character than the typical "clueless and useless yet nice at heart so the girls like him" crap.
Yes Makoto will have special place in whats left of my soul once School Days end. But i must admit iv rather enjoyed watching him since most male leads in this genre are all a dime a dozen. Although i do love seeing the shy good guys most of the time its nice change of pace to see a guy that imo could actually pass for scumbag in reality Makoto is actually pretty realistic. It would be nice if all guys were like Yuuichi but alas real life does not afford us such a luxury since there are more Makoto's in world than Yuuichi's
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Old 2007-08-29, 17:00   Link #130
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I didn't watch Gift. I heard the main girl was more or less a Nemu and that was a huge turnoff for me.

But what I liked about Yuuichi is how he had a good sense of humour, how he wasn't clueless, he could have fun, and he was reliable when he needed to be. I have no clue what kind of character Haruhiko is, but I could list Yukito from Air as another good character. Rin from Shuffle was alright, and I like Shirou from F/SN as well.

On the other hand, at least usually, male leads who have a "harem" but didn't originate from a visual novel have better characterization, too. It's quite sad because I've often found that visual novel based male leads go through a process of de-characterization for the anime; in the actual games, when you get more insight into their thoughts and such, you can tell they're a lot better than the shows make them look. An example of this is Jyunichi from DC; he's far more interesting, smarter and much better at talking to girls in the game than he was in the anime (better sense of humour, not so clueless, fairly smooth).

Of course, I can't speak for Makoto since I haven't played the game, but the general consensus even for people who have is that he's quite despicable in it, still.

And for the record, Sinestra, it's true that Makoto is somewhat realistic, though I don't know anyone -that- stupid; and it's also a good thing that there aren't that many good guys around - it'd not be too nice to be up against tougher competition, this world is competitive enough in a lot of areas already...at least in the matters of love a lot of people are inept.
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Old 2007-08-29, 17:11   Link #131
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Yes Makoto will have special place in whats left of my soul once School Days end. But i must admit iv rather enjoyed watching him since most male leads in this genre are all a dime a dozen. Although i do love seeing the shy good guys most of the time its nice change of pace to see a guy that imo could actually pass for scumbag in reality Makoto is actually pretty realistic. It would be nice if all guys were like Yuuichi but alas real life does not afford us such a luxury since there are more Makoto's in world than Yuuichi's
Most of the time you feel sorry for male leads in harem's having to deal with all these girls. Hayate makes you feel extra sad because he doesn't only have social problems, his whole life pretty much stinks.

Makoto you don't feel sorry for at all. Sure he's clueless, but rather then try to make amends he just makes things worse. And it's not just simple misunderstandings like Hayate, he is flatout ignoring what is going on. Like what was said he's only in it for the sex.

And yet these 2 shows are the first harems I've watched, boy did I pick a duo.
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Old 2007-08-29, 17:27   Link #132
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I didn't watch Gift. I heard the main girl was more or less a Nemu and that was a huge turnoff for me.
You have heard wrong then

Quote:
Of course, I can't speak for Makoto since I haven't played the game, but the general consensus even for people who have is that he's quite despicable in it, still.
Well ... lets just say the anime writers are putting in extra effort to make it even easier to hate him ^^
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Old 2007-08-29, 17:34   Link #133
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Originally Posted by AvatarST View Post

And for the record, Sinestra, it's true that Makoto is somewhat realistic, though I don't know anyone -that- stupid; and it's also a good thing that there aren't that many good guys around - it'd not be too nice to be up against tougher competition, this world is competitive enough in a lot of areas already...at least in the matters of love a lot of people are inept.
LMAO you got that right the world is very competitive and when it comes to matters of the heart things can get quite complicated and messy there is no sense in making a potential volatile situation any more complicated than it already is. Its true things can be difficult for the nice guy but when there are a bunch of Makoto's running around eventually the nice guy will stand out. It may take time and girls may see you as more of a brother type for a while before they look at you differently. Apparently Makoto is attractive and shows good points when hes helping or talking to some girl randomly and that makes the girls fall for him. Its amazing he doesnt turn into a dick untill the girl actually wants him at least in the anime thats why i held out hope for him i just dont get it look at what he did for Setsuna that was very cool of him. Bad guys get the girls for a while but as girls get older they get tired of those games and thats when they start looking around saying wow iv known this nice guy for a while why havent i tried to date him yet. IT happens so often it makes you want to laugh.

You know like most of us here i recommend anime to many friends who dont really know much about it. Over the course of the past 2 weeks iv told them I will have to get back to them on School days and i have never done that. I have always had an answer right away for any anime they have asked about. But this one hits close to home with me on a couple of issues which i have mentioned in other posts. I think before I actually take a stand on recommending it or not i will have to wait to the end. Also, i like you deconstruction of male leads in harems very well put.
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Old 2007-08-29, 17:39   Link #134
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Quote:
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Of course, I can't speak for Makoto since I haven't played the game, but the general consensus even for people who have is that he's quite despicable in it, still.
Since the anime isn't finished yet, i believe it isn't the time to tell anything about his game counterpart.
however, i can safely claim that Game Makoto >>> Anime Makoto (in a "good" way)

scripters love to "improve" the "hate" vibes for characters. (Otome is a prime example...)
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Old 2007-08-29, 17:41   Link #135
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You have heard wrong then
Gotta give it a chance then. I like it when the show has a good male lead, so that's something to look forward to.

By the way, thanks for the comments, Sinestra.

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scripters love to "improve" the "hate" vibes for characters. (Otome is a prime example...)
I can definitely see that. I mean, if there's an Otome route, surely she must show a lot of good points there and probably she also develops as a character and a person in it? But the anime makes her look so bad that for people who haven't played the game it's kinda hard to picture.
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Old 2007-08-29, 21:05   Link #136
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LMAO you got that right the world is very competitive and when it comes to matters of the heart things can get quite complicated and messy there is no sense in making a potential volatile situation any more complicated than it already is. Its true things can be difficult for the nice guy but when there are a bunch of Makoto's running around eventually the nice guy will stand out. It may take time and girls may see you as more of a brother type for a while before they look at you differently. Apparently Makoto is attractive and shows good points when hes helping or talking to some girl randomly and that makes the girls fall for him. Its amazing he doesnt turn into a dick untill the girl actually wants him at least in the anime thats why i held out hope for him i just dont get it look at what he did for Setsuna that was very cool of him. Bad guys get the girls for a while but as girls get older they get tired of those games and thats when they start looking around saying wow iv known this nice guy for a while why havent i tried to date him yet. IT happens so often it makes you want to laugh.

You know like most of us here i recommend anime to many friends who dont really know much about it. Over the course of the past 2 weeks iv told them I will have to get back to them on School days and i have never done that. I have always had an answer right away for any anime they have asked about. But this one hits close to home with me on a couple of issues which i have mentioned in other posts. I think before I actually take a stand on recommending it or not i will have to wait to the end. Also, i like you deconstruction of male leads in harems very well put.
Yeah, I got sick of the whole generic Harem Male, some guy who actually takes initiative is nice for once, even if he is a scumbag. Lets see future guys like him who can pull off the same stunts yet not burn so crispy...I am somehow more approved of this type of Harem Male over the usual wuss (Who's wussiness extends so far that rule 34 doesnt exist for them)
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Old 2007-08-29, 21:42   Link #137
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Do you think Makoto will find out about what Taisuke did? If so do you think he'll start to realize what hurting everyone around him has caused?
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Old 2007-08-29, 22:14   Link #138
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Not a snowball's chance in hell he will...he is considered to be the worst of the worst...
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Old 2007-08-30, 04:45   Link #139
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Do you think Makoto will find out about what Taisuke did? If so do you think he'll start to realize what hurting everyone around him has caused?
chances of Makoto finding out about what Taisuke did could be high (they are friends after all and Kotonoha still sees Makoto as her boyfriend), depending on how the events of episode 9 will affect episode 10.
But Makoto realizing that all that he has done was just hurting everyone around him is low...he's too stupid to realize of that kind of thing.
I believe the only person(s) that could make him realize that he's just hurting everyone is either Kotonoha or Sekai...other than that, he's too clueless on whats going on around him.
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Old 2007-08-30, 04:53   Link #140
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It's really hard to make arguments to justify Makoto's behavior when ever week he does more stupid things like this. I think I officially give up on arguing anything for Makoto from now on.
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