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Old 2007-08-30, 12:45   Link #1
Hamachi
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Unhappy Why is gundam leaning toward the "godly" type?

First of all, hello.

Why are the newer gundams series (G, W, Seed, and possibly OO) so "fake"? Of course gundams are not real, but i meant fake in the sense that one gundam takes down numerous enemies without a scratch?

The point I'm trying to get at is that newer gundam series always consist of say >10 "main character" gundams circling around pwning everyone else. It's almost as I'm watching Mazinger Z... or Power Ranger (maybe this is a bad analogy).

I guess I just miss the old ones where they have mass military action (involving at least more than 5 gundams at once! And non-gundam MS actually make an impact).

Open for discussion.
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Old 2007-08-30, 13:29   Link #2
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I know what you mean . . . . yes while a lot of the original older series only had a few Gundams and none of them owned everyone the newer series are the opposite.

I'll be honest though, it doesn't bother me that much. I don't mind seeing Kria or Heero take on numrous enemiies and wipe them all out . . .I dunno. I mean I guess it could be possible to make a Gundam more powerful than the rest. It is just something that will always be debatble I guess.

While I like series like the MS 08th Team for the even playing field, I thought Seed was good as wel. The way I think about it is a video game . . . .there are those who are really bad, them those who can win a few, and then the unstoppable player who can beat all and never lose. I guess it applies to anything really whether a sport or game or even Gundams? I don't know why the newer series are made to have the main character so invincible lately . . . . .
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Old 2007-08-30, 14:50   Link #3
OmegaZEROCustom
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I think a lot of it comes down to models and MSIA and other figures and such. Look at it this way. While I LOVE the RX-78-2 design, look at it this way. What does it have for features as a model or figure? 2 Beam sabers, a rifle, bazooka, and the Gundam Hammer if included. It has the Core Fighter as a "transformation" and thats it. Now, lets look at some of the newer Gundams. Wing ZERO (TV Version) for instance. It has a beam saber, the buster rifle, and a transformation gimmick. The Strike and Impulse have each have the hip stored daggers, beam sabers, swappable equipment packs (and in the case of the Strike, the main body color remains the same so you get effectively 3 Gundams in one), and with the Impulse, a similar Core Block-like system.

Ignoring the fact that the RX-78-2 sells like hotcakes anyway because its a classic design, compare it to, say, the RX-79[G] Ground Type Gundam. Pretty much the same equipment loadout as the RX-78-2. The market is for these flashy Gundams with all sorts of bits and bobs all over. Thats why we see the Gundams getting more Super Robot style and less of a war machine like the early UC Gundams were. Kids want to see all he gimmicks of the Gundam in action and have all the same gimmicks on their model or MSIA. That's probably why the Exia has, what, 7 different types of blades on it. Because it gives them a more accessories to slap onto the figures they put out.

Thats just my feelings on it though.
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Old 2007-08-30, 20:59   Link #4
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamachi
Why are the newer gundams series (G, W, Seed, and possibly OO) so "fake"? Of course gundams are not real, but i meant fake in the sense that one gundam takes down numerous enemies without a scratch?
This isn't just true for the newer Gundam shows. In a way, all of the Gundam TV shows depict the protagonist only getting into significant trouble against his one or two "fated" rivals. This isn't so true for the UC OVAs, but it is for all of the longer works. It's not a particularly realistic way of depicting combat, but it seems to be what the fans like - most other mecha shows follow a similar formula.

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Originally Posted by Hamachi
I guess I just miss the old ones where they have mass military action (involving at least more than 5 gundams at once! And non-gundam MS actually make an impact).
There's no real difference between a non-Gundam mobile suit and one that happens to have some Gundam stylistic features and is given the Gundam moniker. On the other hand, if you prefer shows where Gundams aren't very different from the run of the mill mobile suit, I think that those days are long past.
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Last edited by 4Tran; 2007-08-30 at 22:08.
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Old 2007-08-30, 21:19   Link #5
neutralizer
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I don't really see SEED gundams as godly. At least, not so if you compare to Wing gundams. Wing gundams just stand there and take the hit because their gundanium is just so strong. SEED gundams actually have to dodge. Normal beams from normal mobile suits if they hit anywhere but the shield will take off that part off. Hence, I don't find the SEED gundams so godly. They're just piloted by better pilots than the average and the gundams are just a bit faster.
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Old 2007-08-30, 22:10   Link #6
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Hamachi is talking about how the performance of the "hero" mobile suits differs so greatly from the line mobile suits, not so much the disparity between their specifications.
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Old 2007-08-30, 22:24   Link #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Hamachi is talking about how the performance of the "hero" mobile suits differs so greatly from the line mobile suits, not so much the disparity between their specifications.
specifications != performance? Personally, I think the bigger difference in what makes gundams seem godly is that the pilots behind them are just so much better than the average pilot.
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Old 2007-08-30, 22:27   Link #8
Terrestrial Dream
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Especially lost episode of Destiny. Armies? who needs them when could get a ace and put him him in a newest MS then you got your army right there. S Freedom goes into battle and start beam spamming everyone and for some reason not even one out of few hundred ZAFT MS are able to hit it. I agree with you that now Gundam doesn't even need any military tactic now it became one MS > few hundred MS. Grunts really seems useless now, back in UC and somewhat in X and I guess Turn A, they did make some difference now all they do is get owned and yelling some Gundam that are about to own them.
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Old 2007-08-30, 22:41   Link #9
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Originally Posted by neutralizer View Post
specifications != performance? Personally, I think the bigger difference in what makes gundams seem godly is that the pilots behind them are just so much better than the average pilot.
Yup. That's pretty much it. In the Cosmic Era shows, the Gundams weren't that much more capable than the line units in terms of acceleration and protection (with the exception of Phase Shift Armor). While they were generally greatly superior in firepower, this difference wouldn't make too much difference outside of combined arms battles. However, the portrayal of the mobile suit combat doesn't reflect this relative parity at all.

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I agree with you that now Gundam doesn't even need any military tactic now it became one MS > few hundred MS. Grunts really seems useless now, back in UC and somewhat in X and I guess Turn A, they did make some difference now all they do is get owned and yelling some Gundam that are about to own them.
That isn't really true at all. Numbers weren't exactly meaningful in many combats in Zeta or ZZ or Char's Counterattack. They made a (very tiny) difference in Mobile Suit Gundam and Victory, but that's about it for the main UC works. Likewise, superior Gundams weren't entirely capable of standing against overwhelming numbers in parts of Gundam X, but that's true for Seed as well. Turn A is sort of an oddball wherein the logic of combat doesn't really apply.
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Old 2007-08-30, 22:43   Link #10
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I personally dont think the heroes are getting better.. If anything, the grunts are becoming more crappier to make the heroes look more mightier....

I suppose shooting grunts flying in straight lines or grunts floating idle does help to make these days gundam heroes look godly....

If only these grunt pilots did actually took a training session in controlling MS's we might actually see some performance from them than the typical spamming material....

But im guessing thats todays fashion in gundam lately
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Old 2007-08-30, 22:48   Link #11
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Personally, I prefer CE Gundams as they were more balanced. In terms of specifications, they fell between the standard gundams from MSG and the uber gundams from the AC universe.

I do kinda hate the gundams in SEED Destiny. A bit too overpowered, especially Strike Freedom. It was like they combined every uber weapon and put it on the Strike Freedom, from the extended shield, the uber Freedom guns, and the DRAGOON system. The Strike and Impulse with swappable weapons and limited power seemed nicer... maybe because they present a struggle for their pilots to use.

I do still love the Freedom just because it looks so badass. The first time it showed up in SEED protecting the Archangel at Alaska was just sooo badass.
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Old 2007-08-30, 22:59   Link #12
Hamachi
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Have you guys played the game MS Gundam: Giren's Greed- Blood of Zeon?

That is my interpretation of a realistic universe.

Yes, there are MS that overpower others. But one Zeta gundam won't stand against teams of high end mass producing MS.
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Old 2007-08-30, 23:03   Link #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
That isn't really true at all. Numbers weren't exactly meaningful in many combats in Zeta or ZZ or Char's Counterattack. They made a (very tiny) difference in Mobile Suit Gundam and Victory, but that's about it for the main UC works. Likewise, superior Gundams weren't entirely capable of standing against overwhelming numbers in parts of Gundam X, but that's true for Seed as well. Turn A is sort of an oddball wherein the logic of combat doesn't really apply.
Well it wasn't really matter of number, but grunt were actually somewhat useful. Aces would fight each other while grunts would fight with each other they would also support the aces. Of course Ace would be able to take down 10+MS with some effort,but in Destiny it is just ridicules even with aces somehow the main character side always seems to win even though they are outnumbered by 10 to 1. In Destiny it seems that grunts only exist just look at it. Grunts in original towards end were useless because Amuro now became a ace while Zeon's grunt were mostly newbies and I don't even remember what those GM did, and of course there was Big Zam which just owned about half of Fed's army, but I would say that they were more useful then Destiny grunt. Yes, in Seed and X weren't able to fight of overwhelming number of MS.
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Old 2007-08-30, 23:22   Link #14
4Tran
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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
I personally dont think the heroes are getting better.. If anything, the grunts are becoming more crappier to make the heroes look more mightier....

I suppose shooting grunts flying in straight lines or grunts floating idle does help to make these days gundam heroes look godly....

If only these grunt pilots did actually took a training session in controlling MS's we might actually see some performance from them than the typical spamming material....

But im guessing thats todays fashion in gundam lately
It's really always been sort of like that. The main difference is that in the older UC TV shows, there were far less large-scale battles (perhaps a budgetary concern), so the creators made the mobile suit pilots fire less accurately. Note that, in space (and in the air to a lesser degree), there's no such thing as being motionless. Concepts like "straight lines" are sort of meaningless as well.

I'd love it if they really made a Gundam show where the "hero" pilots are toned down, and line pilots are shown to be more competent, but this is as unlikely as a realistic Gundam show.

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Well it wasn't really matter of number, but grunt were actually somewhat useful. Aces would fight each other while grunts would fight with each other they would also support the aces.
And they still ended making no impact. Not a whole lot has changed in this sense.

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Of course Ace would be able to take down 10+MS with some effort,but in Destiny it is just ridicules even with aces somehow the main character side always seems to win even though they are outnumbered by 10 to 1. In Destiny it seems that grunts only exist just look at it.
I really don't like the super-Gundam style of combat choreography, but the line units have always existed to make the heroes look good. There's no real way to avoid this when the central conceit of the entire franchise is that the outcome of major wars hinge on the actions of a few individuals.

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Grunts in original towards end were useless because Amuro now became a ace while Zeon's grunt were mostly newbies and I don't even remember what those GM did, and of course there was Big Zam which just owned about half of Fed's army, but I would say that they were more useful then Destiny grunt.
Why? And why does the reason that a mobile suit is given the super-Gundam treatment important?

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Yes, in Seed and X weren't able to fight of overwhelming number of MS.
It'd be great if we saw more of this in Gundam 00.
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Old 2007-08-30, 23:22   Link #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperlion View Post
Well it wasn't really matter of number, but grunt were actually somewhat useful. Aces would fight each other while grunts would fight with each other they would also support the aces. Of course Ace would be able to take down 10+MS with some effort,but in Destiny it is just ridicules even with aces somehow the main character side always seems to win even though they are outnumbered by 10 to 1. In Destiny it seems that grunts only exist just look at it. Grunts in original towards end were useless because Amuro now became a ace while Zeon's grunt were mostly newbies and I don't even remember what those GM did, and of course there was Big Zam which just owned about half of Fed's army, but I would say that they were more useful then Destiny grunt. Yes, in Seed and X weren't able to fight of overwhelming number of MS.
Spoiler for those who didn't see SEED:
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Old 2007-08-30, 23:35   Link #16
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Spoiler for Gundam Seed:
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Old 2007-08-30, 23:40   Link #17
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Numbers mean nothing if they are useless to a point of not having them...

Wing and Seed series have shown multiple times that grunts doing nothing but aimlessly just sitting there begging to get shot at.....

Yes you can have 100 MS vs 1 Gundam... But its no good if they all keep on missing retardedly or refuse to use shields effectivly or cant even perform evasive Maneuvers. Hell i bet they dont even know what the meaning *dodge* is...

Things like these what makes the Gundam pilots look godly.... Even in UC amuro had problems taking down grunts... or should i say take *longer* time to take down grunts....

Grunts that know how to fight, in general can be quite a deadly opposition.. But in the later Gundam series thats one thing we dont see much of.. Hell i dont really remember if wing and seed grunts even know how to use cover effectively.
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Old 2007-08-30, 23:53   Link #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Numbers mean nothing if they are useless to a point of not having them...

Wing and Seed series have shown multiple times that grunts doing nothing but aimlessly just sitting there begging to get shot at.....

Yes you can have 100 MS vs 1 Gundam... But its no good if they all keep on missing retardedly or refuse to use shields effectivly or cant even perform evasive Maneuvers. Hell i bet they dont even know what the meaning *dodge* is...

Things like these what makes the Gundam pilots look godly.... Even in UC amuro had problems taking down grunts... or should i say take *longer* time to take down grunts....

Grunts that know how to fight, in general can be quite a deadly opposition.. But in the later Gundam series thats one thing we dont see much of.. Hell i dont really remember if wing and seed grunts even know how to use cover effectively.
That's probably because the line suits are piloted mostly by green coats. The red coats of the ZAFT like Lunamarie and Rey and Heinne in line suits do a pretty good job.

What cover is there to hide behind? Even the heroes don't use cover, they just dodge.

I have to say the AC series gundams were definitely way more overpowered than the SEED gundams. The SEED gundams actually lead squads of line suits to fight whereas the AC series just sit there and tank the grunts.
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Old 2007-08-31, 00:38   Link #19
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That's probably because the line suits are piloted mostly by green coats. The red coats of the ZAFT like Lunamarie and Rey and Heinne in line suits do a pretty good job.
If thats the performance you get by green coats its better to save billions of dollars and spend it on monkeys to throw socket ranches at them.

No offence neutalizer but the red coats is something i would expect from from green coats minus the gundams.... Seems that the red coats are able to do one of the minimal requirements. TO BE EFFECTIVE instead of being useless cannon fodder as green coats have demonstrated through both series.

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What cover is there to hide behind? Even the heroes don't use cover, they just dodge.
I wasnt talking about heroes. Even then some of the UC shows have illustrated heroes using cover and saved their lives.

Pls watch MS 08th Team thats a good demonstration of using cover.

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I have to say the AC series gundams were definitely way more overpowered than the SEED gundams. The SEED gundams actually lead squads of line suits to fight whereas the AC series just sit there and tank the grunts.
I can agree to that

My point i wanting to bring out is that without effective common everyday grunt with some common sense, they are only there to promote the heroes godly skills... Look at those DOM troopers for example. They are not heroes but at least they had some skill and tactics which made them look Effective And you can tell straight away that they are not going to go down in less than a second against a Hero unit....

If every low life grunt unit could act in this fashion at least would make the shows more believable. Which would also illustastrate that the Heroes are not too Godly.
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Old 2007-08-31, 01:36   Link #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
If thats the performance you get by green coats its better to save billions of dollars and spend it on monkeys to throw socket ranches at them.

No offence neutalizer but the red coats is something i would expect from from green coats minus the gundams.... Seems that the red coats are able to do one of the minimal requirements. TO BE EFFECTIVE instead of being useless cannon fodder as green coats have demonstrated through both series.
Red coat level skills are probably not required of green coats when they're expected to fight the normal troops of the EAF. From the beginning of SEED, you can tell that the green coats completely dominate the mobile armors of the EAF. Only when you start fighting the heroes is when the green coats start looking ineffective in comparison.

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I wasnt talking about heroes. Even then some of the UC shows have illustrated heroes using cover and saved their lives.

Pls watch MS 08th Team thats a good demonstration of using cover.
I saw 08th MS Team. That's more ground combat where the terrain is suitable for cover.

In SEED, most of the fights occur in mid-air or in space. Where is there cover in the middle of space in mid-air? Even the few ground combat ones like say the battle with BuCUES in the desert, it's the desert. It's barren. There is no cover for them to even use if they want.
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