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Old 2007-09-01, 08:08   Link #401
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
To be more presice, Keroko is as powerfull as Nanoha, and mainly a mid-ranged combatant. Even her device (a dual sided axe) is mainly there to scream 'stay away from me!' which is precicely what she wants. She can handle herself in close combat, but is by no means an expert in it.
That's about what I remembered. They were powerful enough to be useful, but no disbalancer. I distinctly remember glimpsing some really displeasingly l33t characters being made before I decided to slam the lid on that OC thread - I'm sure there are some other balanced characters in it but the l33t ones turned me off...

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I tend to focuss on balance when it comes to my OC's.
That's what I liked about them.

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Using mine as examples of strong or fast learners (well, she does learn fast, but not more so then the other three) is a bad example of OC-thread madness.
I was actually using them to show how little I know about the characters in the OC thread, to tell the other guy telling me about OC characters is absolutely meaningless (and irrevelant).

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Buh..? I thought Hayate is an Ace. What with all the 'three Aces' and all.
Yeah, I distinctly remember something about this as well. I guess that mattered not to the Shaft Hayate team at 7Arcs...
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Old 2007-09-01, 08:15   Link #402
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Yeah, I distinctly remember something about this as well. I guess that mattered not to the Shaft Hayate team at 7Arcs...
Obviously they were funded by the people who created Regius...

... Conspiracy time! Regius was out to get Hayate ever since she started officer training!
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Old 2007-09-01, 17:11   Link #403
Frankenstein's Clare
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
1) It is hardly as unknown as you imply. Ultimately, between herself and the TSAB, they did make a new Reinforce. Creating a whole human-grade personality magical being from dirt is pretty advanced stuff.
2) Belka is basically a Midchildran offshoot and has been recreated into the New Belka.
3) If Belkan magic is being very restrictive, there seems no reason why she can't just change tracks into the more flexible Midchildran (which is supposed to more suitable for bombardment). She already uses a wierd mishmash of Belkan and Midchildran magic anyway (see Hraesvelgr's firing circles).
Conceded, though I'm interested as to where the information that Belka is merely an offshoot of Midchildan comes from. It seems counterintuitive considering Midchilda's ascendancy is recent while Belka's heyday presumably came way back whenever the Book was created.

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Spoiler for Size:
Missing the point. She chose to pursue a leadership position; she's devoted her entire career to gaining organizational influence culminating in her own command. As good an artillery piece as she makes, even that is a secondary role for her. Why should she be wasting time developing a secondary skill?

Yeah, if you insist on looking at Hayate solely as a tactical proposition, she's going to come up short, and all that time she put into gaining her own command is going to look wasted compared to developing her magical skills. But I'd think for all you're going on about combat coefficients you'd recognize that there's more to the strength of an army than the strength of each individual soldier. Even when some of those soldiers are ridiculously powerful mages.

If you ask me, she should really go the Graham route. If you've got massive powers but think your life's work is behind a desk, make familiars, dump all your mana on them. They can spend their lives becoming combat experts and putting your raw power to good use, and you can do what you want to do/are best at.

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Buh..? I thought Hayate is an Ace. What with all the 'three Aces' and all.
Yeah. Sniper-ace, melee-ace, and bureaucracy-ace. Nice and balanced. I'll bet she's owed twice as many favors by the HQ logistics team as any other officer in the TSA.

But seriously. She is by all accounts a great investigator and a great artillery piece. Given how loosely-defined and reputation-based the accolade seems to be in the TSA, I'm not surprised it's been applied to her. But she isn't, as ark has been pointing out, a great 'dogfighter'.


Oh right, that reminds me, I did have some stuff I wanted to say about ark's example

-teleportation is blocked by barriers. Even the TSAB grunt mages can put up a solid barrier. It's still strategically important, but as a tactical option it's going to be severely limited by the fact that you can, uh, block it.

-the combat example with the numbers is a total straw man. You're ignoring what Hayate IS good at... in this case, vaporizing all the numbers before they ever close to the extremely close combat ranges most of their members are suited to. And as per the above, teleportation is not a viable way to avoid taking your licks on the way in. Maybe if 4 was along they could sneak in, but I'm not sure she knows how to fool Belkan scanning spells like Shamal uses.

Last edited by Frankenstein's Clare; 2007-09-01 at 17:31.
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Old 2007-09-01, 20:27   Link #404
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Frankenstein's Clare View Post
Conceded, though I'm interested as to where the information that Belka is merely an offshoot of Midchildan comes from. It seems counterintuitive considering Midchilda's ascendancy is recent while Belka's heyday presumably came way back whenever the Book was created.
They flat out said this in Nanoha A when they first described Belkan magic around Ep2-3ish.

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Missing the point. She chose to pursue a leadership position; she's devoted her entire career to gaining organizational influence culminating in her own command. As good an artillery piece as she makes, even that is a secondary role for her. Why should she be wasting time developing a secondary skill?
But the key to her influence is her magical combat coefficient. Without that she's a teenager. So the more l33t she makes herself, the better a position she's in, both tactically and bureaucratically. It is a much better use of time than handshaking another general or whatever it is the time was reallocated for.
Spoiler for Length:


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Yeah, if you insist on looking at Hayate solely as a tactical proposition, she's going to come up short, and all that time she put into gaining her own command is going to look wasted compared to developing her magical skills. But I'd think for all you're going on about combat coefficients you'd recognize that there's more to the strength of an army than the strength of each individual soldier. Even when some of those soldiers are ridiculously powerful mages.
The problem is that the absurd imbalance will, in the face of opponents of similar class, actually hinder the Force Combat Coefficient because everyone will be forced to guard her instead of fighting proactively.

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If you ask me, she should really go the Graham route. If you've got massive powers but think your life's work is behind a desk, make familiars, dump all your mana on them. They can spend their lives becoming combat experts and putting your raw power to good use, and you can do what you want to do/are best at.
No contest here, but she already has quite a few family memebrs. A better path is to first see whether the Wolkenritter programming can be slightly tweaked so Hayate can dump power into them (if she couldn't already).

But for her own career, which is strongly tied to her abilities as a mage, she should still work on it.

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Yeah. Sniper-ace, melee-ace, and bureaucracy-ace. Nice and balanced. I'll bet she's owed twice as many favors by the HQ logistics team as any other officer in the TSA.
Bureaucracy ace? IIRC, while the definition of Ace is broad, it basically means a "one-man army", not a "one man artillery battalion" that needs guards.

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But seriously. She is by all accounts a great investigator and a great artillery piece. Given how loosely-defined and reputation-based the accolade seems to be in the TSA, I'm not surprised it's been applied to her. But she isn't, as ark has been pointing out, a great 'dogfighter'.
I don't need great. I need minimal adequacy.

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Oh right, that reminds me, I did have some stuff I wanted to say about ark's example

-teleportation is blocked by barriers. Even the TSAB grunt mages can put up a solid barrier. It's still strategically important, but as a tactical option it's going to be severely limited by the fact that you can, uh, block it.
1) Enforced teleportation (see Yunno do it, and he's an A).
2) You did kind of notice that despite its usefulness, barriers are for some reason not often employed on Midchildra. It seems like they only use them for work in non-magical worlds like Earth.
3) There's no sign it blocks teleportation within the barrier, as opposed to moving in or out.

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-the combat example with the numbers is a total straw man. You're ignoring what Hayate IS good at... in this case, vaporizing all the numbers before they ever close to the extremely close combat ranges most of their members are suited to. And as per the above, teleportation is not a viable way to avoid taking your licks on the way in. Maybe if 4 was along they could sneak in, but I'm not sure she knows how to fool Belkan scanning spells like Shamal uses.
Quite frankly, if a bunch of professional, full-time scanners fail to discriminate b/w 4's decoys and the real thing, I see little reason to believe Shamal's sensing magic will do better.

As for the artillery part, did you notice that 4 and 10 weren't all that badly hurt by Diabolic Emission. This is actually logical because the power density of AOE is relatively low - they are only eating a small part of the blast. Also, Hayate takes a good long time setting up her artillery shots (the High Speed Processing part), and by moving proactively, they can all be in melee range before the preparation completes - the good old "grab him by the belt" thing.
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Old 2007-09-02, 00:27   Link #405
Frankenstein's Clare
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
They flat out said this in Nanoha A when they first described Belkan magic around Ep2-3ish.
nibunshita... was split in two. Can't argue with the translation, guess I'll just have to settle for being confused.

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But the key to her influence is her magical combat coefficient. Without that she's a teenager. So the more l33t she makes herself, the better a position she's in, both tactically and bureaucratically. It is a much better use of time than handshaking another general or whatever it is the time was reallocated for.
Spoiler for Length:
Unlikely. The most obvious retort is that she has a higher rank than Nanoha and Fate, who did spend all their time developing their combat prowess. Whatever she was doing as an investigator and career-builder advanced her up the ranks faster than their power-building. Also, the high-ranking TSA types we see tend to be chairbound despite their considerably magical power- Lindy, Graham, and Chrono in his current incarnation see little action. High-ranking officers don't seem to be expected to fight.

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The problem is that the absurd imbalance will, in the face of opponents of similar class, actually hinder the Force Combat Coefficient because everyone will be forced to guard her instead of fighting proactively.
As per the above, I don't think she's supposed to lead from the front line. Using Lindy as an example- sit in chair, drink tea, have Chrono take care of it. Graham - sit in chair, feel vaguely guilty, have familiars take care of it. Though I guess Graham was also avoiding an active role for the sake of anonymity. The StrikerS plot forced Hayate to the front, but I think that was a result of Midchilda and the TSA not being very prepared for this ridiculous Lolisankya scenario. And as stupid as the writers make them out to be, for that I really can't blame them.

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No contest here, but she already has quite a few family memebrs. A better path is to first see whether the Wolkenritter programming can be slightly tweaked so Hayate can dump power into them (if she couldn't already).
Heh, but with the familiars you could have all kinds of nice soapy interpersonal tension between the Wolkenritter and the new kids. Plus the Wolkenritter programs might be something more arcane than she can safely tinker with.


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1) Enforced teleportation (see Yunno do it, and he's an A).
2) You did kind of notice that despite its usefulness, barriers are for some reason not often employed on Midchildra. It seems like they only use them for work in non-magical worlds like Earth.
3) There's no sign it blocks teleportation within the barrier, as opposed to moving in or out.
1) Don't recall Yuuno doing it. At the very least, he couldn't get them out of Vita's barrier in A's.
2) Haven't seen much use of combat teleportation either. When was the last time someone teleported into combat? Chrono's intro in the first season? Maybe there's a reason for that too.
3) Well, they declined to use it to get to gain distance on the Book. If I had been able to teleport away from the YnS-mod Starlight Breaker, I would have. Then again her barrier might have been special. Was the Book after all.


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Quite frankly, if a bunch of professional, full-time scanners fail to discriminate b/w 4's decoys and the real thing, I see little reason to believe Shamal's sensing magic will do better.

As for the artillery part, did you notice that 4 and 10 weren't all that badly hurt by Diabolic Emission. This is actually logical because the power density of AOE is relatively low - they are only eating a small part of the blast. Also, Hayate takes a good long time setting up her artillery shots (the High Speed Processing part), and by moving proactively, they can all be in melee range before the preparation completes - the good old "grab him by the belt" thing.
4 specializes in fooling electronic systems, which the Midchildan mission control scanners use. Shamal uses a rare form of ancient magic with a highly specialized device. Regarding 'professionalism', Shamal probably has a hundred times the experience of everyone in RF6 mission control put together.

I don't think the power density on AoE spells is all that low. The Book's certainly weren't. And despite the pyrotechnics they were trying to capture 4 and 10; it's very possible Hayate's DE wasn't meant to do more than herd them into the Fate/Nanoha vice. I'm assuming our little hypothetical combat allows for bloodshed.

Numbers flight abilities vary a lot. I can see Tre making it to them before Hayate could get off even a middle power-range spell with her total focus on flight speed, but I doubt she'll make much of an impression alone. If they stick together they're stuck moving at slowest pace, which I suspect belongs to that surfboard if it's carrying two people.

Also, as a separate issue the numbers just aren't a very good matchup for all the main characters together. Even if Hayate was reduced to hiding behind the Wolkenritter support casters and their shields the whole battle, the flight-capable numbers don't have the combat power to take Fate/Nanoha/Signum/Vita together. Their two strongest fighters (wingblades and boomerangs) can hold off Fate, and if we're really, REALLY generous maybe the inferior twinblades and raystorm can handle Nanoha... but who does that leave to deal with Signum and Vita? Rollerblades and surfboard? That's a five-second fight, and then the other four are hosed.

Which I realize has nothing to do with the point you're making (to which my answer is still 'I don't think she's supposed to lead from the front') but it was bothering me.
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Old 2007-09-02, 05:47   Link #406
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Frankenstein's Clare View Post
nibunshita... was split in two. Can't argue with the translation, guess I'll just have to settle for being confused.
...
Which I realize has nothing to do with the point you're making (to which my answer is still 'I don't think she's supposed to lead from the front') but it was bothering me.
Good point there, Liingo - this kind of thing just gets into my head. Transferring it to resurrenct long-dead Military discussions thread - this is a military issue, a minority interest to the Generic Discussion thread people, so I hope this is appropriate.

The reply is now in Post 67 of the Military Thread for the few that are interest

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2007-09-02 at 08:34. Reason: See my answer in a more appropriate thread
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Old 2007-09-02, 05:58   Link #407
Liingo
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Um guys (Frankenstein's Clare and arkhangelsk)... While this conversation is interesting and all (heck I don't even mind so don't take this as a flame....) but it's not really on topic anymore so I suggest moving over to the generic thread to continue. It may have been at the start when we were talking about the differences in manga and anime hayate, but right now we're not even talking about the manga anymore.

Otherwise the mods are going start to move..
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Old 2007-09-07, 21:11   Link #408
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Chapter 8 now available for download. Please help seed if you can.
Thanks to selkirk, humbug23 and Icarisain for their work and patience. ^_-
(And sorry for the delays, AS-Nano members. Full-time work and shooting game tourneys take up a bit of time now, but I'll be pressing onward.)
Chapter 9 is under v4 QC, and Chapter 10 has been raw-cleaned and awaiting translation. Got a surprise coming soon, as well. ^_-
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Old 2007-09-07, 21:38   Link #409
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Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
Chapter 8 now available for download. Please help seed if you can.
Thanks to selkirk, humbug23 and Icarisain for their work and patience. ^_-
(And sorry for the delays, AS-Nano members. Full-time work and shooting game tourneys take up a bit of time now, but I'll be pressing onward.)
Chapter 9 is under v4 QC, and Chapter 10 has been raw-cleaned and awaiting translation. Got a surprise coming soon, as well. ^_-
You guys have my thanks and graitude
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Old 2007-09-08, 03:20   Link #410
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Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
Chapter 8 now available for download. Please help seed if you can.
Thanks to selkirk, humbug23 and Icarisain for their work and patience. ^_-
(And sorry for the delays, AS-Nano members. Full-time work and shooting game tourneys take up a bit of time now, but I'll be pressing onward.)
Chapter 9 is under v4 QC, and Chapter 10 has been raw-cleaned and awaiting translation. Got a surprise coming soon, as well. ^_-
Several thanks to the AS-Nano scanlators!
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Old 2007-09-08, 10:23   Link #411
suppi
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can anyone be generous enough to upload vol. 7 and 8 on sendspace or other uploader out there...
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Old 2007-09-08, 11:38   Link #412
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can anyone be generous enough to upload vol. 7 and 8 on sendspace or other uploader out there...
http://www.sendspace.com/file/emp98q
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Old 2007-09-09, 04:47   Link #413
suppi
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thank you
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Old 2007-09-09, 09:30   Link #414
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Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
Chapter 8 now available for download. Please help seed if you can.
Thanks to selkirk, humbug23 and Icarisain for their work and patience. ^_-
(And sorry for the delays, AS-Nano members. Full-time work and shooting game tourneys take up a bit of time now, but I'll be pressing onward.)
Chapter 9 is under v4 QC, and Chapter 10 has been raw-cleaned and awaiting translation. Got a surprise coming soon, as well. ^_-
Many thanks for your hardwork guys, i'll seed it for a few days.
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Old 2007-09-09, 21:34   Link #415
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has the chapter 9 raw been released yet?
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Old 2007-09-12, 05:46   Link #416
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Not only the 9th, but the 10th too...

Chapter 9 raw : StS 9.5

Chapter 10 raw: StS 14.75

I realy love the page where Fate brushs Vivio's hair, so sweet *-*.

And i'd like to thanks all the people who work on the translation of the manga m_m.
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Old 2007-09-12, 08:01   Link #417
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Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken View Post
I realy love the page where Fate brushs Vivio's hair, so sweet *-*.
And my favorite part is:

Spoiler:

Thanks for posting the links.
Quote:
And i'd like to thanks all the people who work on the translation of the manga m_m.
Ditto.
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Old 2007-09-12, 09:21   Link #418
suppi
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Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken View Post
Not only the 9th, but the 10th too...

Chapter 9 raw : StS 9.5

Chapter 10 raw: StS 14.75

I realy love the page where Fate brushs Vivio's hair, so sweet *-*.

And i'd like to thanks all the people who work on the translation of the manga m_m.
Can you get chapter 9 in mediafire as well?
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Old 2007-09-12, 09:53   Link #419
Nina.Wolken
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Can you get chapter 9 in mediafire as well?
Sure ^^ : StrikerS 9.5 raw
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Old 2007-09-12, 10:02   Link #420
arkhangelsk
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If you scanned them yourself...

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Originally Posted by Nina.Wolken View Post
Not only the 9th, but the 10th too...

Chapter 9 raw : StS 9.5

Chapter 10 raw: StS 14.75

I realy love the page where Fate brushs Vivio's hair, so sweet *-*.

And i'd like to thanks all the people who work on the translation of the manga m_m.
I'd give you some friendly hints:
1) Scan in grayscale.
2) The funny color mosaic on your scanned images is probably because you scanned the pages at too low a resolution. Recommend you scan using 300DPI - that in my experience should eliminate the wierd mosaics, but check anyway.
3) To reduce size of scanned images, use JPEG or PNG - don't leave them BMP and try to RAR, because dedicated image compression is more effective. An IMO underused method is to use PDFCreator to make a PDF out of the comic.

Otherwise, good work. Thank you!
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