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Old 2007-06-17, 11:48   Link #61
Kha
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Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise View Post
I remember seeing a site with a thorough explanation of all inconsistances of Battletech universe TSAB could deserve something similar as well
At least that'll make my job as a fanon writer a lot easier.
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Old 2007-06-17, 20:33   Link #62
aldw
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Originally Posted by Cats View Post
Battletech what?! ~
It doesn't matter what they were exactly ~ just what's the point your trying to make with them.
Promotions and such in groups like the Clans don't exactly follow modern military hierarchy and protocol, so that would be something worth looking at.
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Old 2007-06-17, 20:52   Link #63
An Hero in Disguise
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Originally Posted by aldw View Post
Promotions and such in groups like the Clans don't exactly follow modern military hierarchy and protocol, so that would be something worth looking at.
Though I find it unlikely that some variation of Clans' Trials system exists in TSAB, that could be quite interesting.
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Old 2007-06-17, 22:32   Link #64
aldw
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Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise View Post
Though I find it unlikely that some variation of Clans' Trials system exists in TSAB, that could be quite interesting.
I wouldn't expect TSAB to copy the Trials system (which more resembles the 'promotions' of the Terran Empire of Star Trek), but testing of sorts for promotions would make sense.
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Old 2007-06-18, 01:29   Link #65
Okita Souji
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Originally Posted by Cats View Post
No they are mostly a clone army.
That's why they all sound the same. //end-off-topiclessSo ~ this was never portrayed as japanese military. Not like I know anything about it, but I do imagine Nano-Military is more in between the middle ground of mass-recruits & special forces.

Judging from those mages in episode one, the training seems to be ~ umm.. the make-you-rough, but can't afford you to quit. If it was more japanese-military (or any other normal one) I would expect them to salute and code-speak at every *bip* out of Hayate's mouth ~ And yet they are so casual.

It's more like the Nano-Military is trained more as an police force then anything.
The general discipline and combat tactics support this ~

- - - -
Signum, Vita & Co should be the only ones with the l33tish training.
Here is some of my thoughts and stuff to input to the thread.

The main thing I have seen linked to the Japanese military is that the rank names (in Japanese) are the current titles used in the Japanese Air Self Defense force and the Japanese Ground Self Defense Force depending on what position and i'm guessing fighting ability the character has. At times you will hear the full title used and at others the abbreviated title (mainly heard for officer and NCO ranks). Example: Nittou Rikusa ---> Nisa or Rikusoucho ---> Soucho

Ground Forces:
Erio and Caro are both Santou Rikushi (Recruits).
Teana and Suabru are both Nittou Rikushi (Private Second Class)
Shari is a Ittou Rikushi (Private First Class)
Hayate intially had the rank of Ittou Rikui (Captain) but was promoted to Nitou Rikusa (Lieutenant Colonel) when she took command of Mobile Section 6.


Air Forces:
Nanoha and Teana's brother have the rank of Ittou Kuui (Captain - Air Force).
Signum is a Nittou Kuui (First Lieutenant). I assume Vita and Shamal are the same rank, although the wiki entry says Vita is a Second Lieutenant and I haven't found anything so far in the eps that name her rank.
Rein is a Kuusoucho (Chief Master Sergeant) which I find odd since Hayate is in the ground forces dept. Maybe someone can shed some light as to why they may have done this?


Fate has the title of Agent. This is similar to the agents in the United States Air Force Office of Special Investigations (OSI) as agents do not have a rank title. See below for info of what OSI does.



Breakdown of Japanese Military ranks for Air and Land Forces

http://www.uniforminsignia.net/index...id=150&sid=872
http://www.uniforminsignia.net/index...id=150&sid=876

Note:
Rank names in Japan were changed after WWII but still retain the same english counterpart. You'll hear the old titles used in series like Gundam though. Anyways, back to the ranks in Nanoha.

Info on the Office of Special Investigations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Ai...Investigations

Last edited by Okita Souji; 2007-06-18 at 01:41.
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Old 2007-07-13, 12:18   Link #66
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
But that's what we're saying - 10 years of service isn't enough to hit Lt. Colonel.
Dudko died as a Captain Second Rank on Kursk, age 31, XO of 1st ranked sub, the Kursk - that's about 10 years of service, and on perhaps the premier submarine of a Navy. OK, it is the Russian Navy, but I discuss this more below.

Quote:
First, keep in mind that Hayate started off from nothing but a big ball of potential. She wasn't a combat veteran. She didn't even have a device. She couldn't be trusted to command her knights directly, given what had just happened. She'd cast a grand total of what, ONE spell in a combat situation. And, not to be rude, she was actually crippled at the time, even though it got better.
To be fair, she did show a great ability to adjust in the incident. She actually figured out that she can just call her knights back out from the book (thus bringing out the extra needed manpower to do the job), and both her spells were well executed - note that she was the only one who did not expend any cartridges during the last engagement.

Reinforce was helping her, but hey, everyone else were using devices (that they are a lot more familiar with) as well. Her first battle was against a boss.

Also, in the comics, she was already being trained as a candidate officer even as her legs were coming up (not a big problem because she could move around quite well transformed).

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You get your commission as a 2nd Lt., then promotions go up 1st Lt., Captain, Major, Lt. Col., Colonel. Even if we admit Hayate directly to the service from the point her legs start working again, that means she's been promoted four times within nine years, which is -way- more than the average officer promotion rate in a real-world military, outside an airforce actually at war...
Actually, all three of them seemed to have came up in the TSAB's equivalent of OCS - 3 months only.

Quote:
You can get a promotion as a reward for an act of heroism, certainly. But typically, the understanding is that you'll spend a longer time than usual at the next rank, because the military doesn't like having officers that are way younger (or older) than the norm for that rank. You don't generally want officers with less experience giving orders to officers of greater experience. (Of course, it's different between NCOs and officers, but that's part of the game.)
The first problem is - what is experience. It certainly is not synonymous with "seniority". The TSAB is a bit unique here because it is neither fully at peace or fully at war. How close you are to a war footing depends on your eliteness. Mundane ground battalions may spend their entire careers effectively at peace, maybe moving out to fight an occasional fire. Elite mages may be asked to fight on a wide variety of battlefields every day, and they would almost always draw the toughest ones. Obviously, one is getting experience at an insanely higher rate (even before we consider the sheer ability differential).

Some militaries actually formalize advantages for situations where only part of a military goes to fight and gains combat experience. Soviet officers fighting in Afghanistan were counted double - one year in Afghanistan looks like 2 not just on the paybook, but the career/seniority book and time-to-pension book as well. This made a lot more people want to go to what otherwise is a completely hellhole for little gain.

This may also explain why Hayate advanced so much faster. From 13 onwards, Nanoha was a Combat Instructor - a privileged and elite position but not one with many chances for combat. Fate is Enforcer, so she has a variety of high and low difficulty jobs. But Hayate probably only gets brought out with her Wolkenritter on the toughest as TSAB's Central's elite Reserve - Special Investigations Officer. She might literally be getting 3-4 years of "book seniority" for every year she actually serves - and it won't be unfair if she is getting the toughest.

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On top of that, once you're above Captain, it's not really a combat position - your administrative skills are almost as important as your leadership skills at that level. We'll grant Hayate a superior ability to organize, but is it so superior that her superiors were able to recognize it in a -young girl-? Enough to get them to approve her promotion? Especially knowing that, at this point, further staff promotions are inevitable - even if she's the worst Lt. Colonel in the service, she'll have the seniority to hit full bird before 30 and general before -40-?
For all we know, another promotion is due to come to her as soon as this whole Relic thing blows over.

She did, of course, pass the command school exam, and for all we know, she got honors (according to the Japanese NanohaWiki she was promoted two ranks at once, which suggests an honor student). That would suggest on paper she has at least similar abilities to her (presumably much older competitors) in the command school.

The exact transition zone for various level changes depending on the military anyway.

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I don't buy it. For me, that's enough evidence that the TSAB puts a heavy thumb on the scales for high ranking mages - that Hayate isn't a Lt. Colonel because she's a superior military administrator or combat leader, but because she's got that SS after her name.
Yes, but it is not a solely magic power thing. It is mentioned in the NanohaA comics that magic is highly dependent on the sciences - especially mathematics which underlie the creation of magical arrays. It is mentioned that Fate, for example, has a Master's equivalent knowledge of Magic, and that she can help Miyuki (high schooler) with her math homework quite easily.

Yuuno, as you know, has been writing papers and by the age of 19 is already a rather well known doctor/professor.

Thus, while it is not obvious onscreen, a mage at 10 is actually a genius across at least some parts of the intellectual spectrum. In other words, they are not only promoting the good mages fast, they are also promoting some of the brainiest people fast, and who can argue with that.

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Oddly, Nanoha and Fate are much more believable as Captains. For one thing, we know they were somewhat veteran before entering the service at all, y'know, from the first two seasons and all. ;p We know that Nanoha has gotten up to enough exploits to have picked up a nifty-keen nickname. And Captain is only two promotions up from where they would have entered at, assuming the TSAB was willing to admit them straight into the officer corps (reasonable, though again, it's purely deference to their abilities.) You can make captain by 30 if you start at 20 and work hard (and are lucky and see action, and Nanoha has all of that). So, starting at 10, okay, captain by 20 isn't toooooo much of a stretch.
Actually, the United States Army has recently reduced its time-in-service requirements for Captaincy to a mere 38 months, something which has caused considerable distress.

Quote:
Of course, all of this assumes a correlation with a Western-style system of commissioned military officers. If the TSAB starts its officers off at a different rank, results can vary widely. But keep in mind that the trainees that Nanoha and friends have on hand are all -privates-, so unless they're shortly to be promoted big-time, that makes the situation even worse.
Well, that's because they aren't quite as elite as our heroines. Remember that our heroines are in fact covert genius, not just overt uber-mages. Though Teana was given a shot at officers' school as well (she just didn't pass the entrance exam).

The TSAB position is not easily comparable to Western militaries. I've mentioned the way the units are not gaining experience anywhere near evenly.

Also, there are many internal circumstances that are not easily seen. Since ranks are but mere decorations, let's look at positions. The seniority one requires to get a particular position actually varies quite widely.

The Soviet Army, for example, is a place where officers advance in position (if they are good and if they have connections) very fast. Captains can command battalions (mostly Majors, but some Captains, and you are probably a little slow if you are a Lt.C) and thus it is perfectly possible to get a battalion command before 30 (<10 years of service), as are positions as 3rd (corvette/frigate) and even 2nd rank (destroyer) warship commanders.
Even a regimental commander position is achievable at 32. A company you might be able to get as soon as you graduate a military "Higher School" as a Lieutenant.

Of course, a compensatory factor with the Soviets is that officers are required to do less in some ways. A company or even battalion have few administrative tasks, for one. They also expend less time in "Joint Duty" assignments. But such factors are less easily seen than the 32-year old Soviet regimental commander.

To go in the other direction, the British don't let their officers command companies until they are 35. They also have fewer joint duty assignments. For this reason, the British sometimes worry about the American system. At least the Soviets could say that all they require their junior leaders to do (at minimum) is to execute Column-Prebattle-Battle and back Drills, but company commanders in both the US and British system are required to handled combined arms teams.

So, it really all depends.
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Old 2007-09-02, 08:29   Link #67
arkhangelsk
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Brought over from other thread to resurrect this one

Taken here from Post 406 of the Manga thread.

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Originally Posted by Frankenstein's Clare View Post
Unlikely. The most obvious retort is that she has a higher rank than Nanoha and Fate, who did spend all their time developing their combat prowess.
Well, but those two were not really that serious about promotions. I'm not saying some bureaucratic work is un-necessary for her rise, but I'm saying that given the obvious correlation between and rank, Hayate would have done better had she did integrated some close combat work into her schedule and gotten an even more l33t rank, such as SS Air Combat or SSS General or maybe even SSS Air Combat.

Quote:
Whatever she was doing as an investigator and career-builder advanced her up the ranks faster than their power-building. Also, the high-ranking TSA types we see tend to be chairbound despite their considerably magical power- Lindy, Graham, and Chrono in his current incarnation see little action. High-ranking officers don't seem to be expected to fight.
Yes, which is a real shame. They are, however, obviously expected to lead from the front if things start to fall to pieces. Both Lindy and Hayate liked their desks, but when the crap hit the fan, they both moved out. And it is when the crap hits the fan that well-balanced powers (or at least not a complete hole in one aspect) become important.

By the way, what if the HQ itself gets attacked, like it did in Ep17. Imagine the battle if Hayate was there trying to command instead of sitting as an influence-less member in Regius' little meeting. Of course, she would have no guards...

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Heh, but with the familiars you could have all kinds of nice soapy interpersonal tension between the Wolkenritter and the new kids. Plus the Wolkenritter programs might be something more arcane than she can safely tinker with.
I'd grant that possibility.

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1) Don't recall Yuuno doing it. At the very least, he couldn't get them out of Vita's barrier in A's.
True, but he did do it in the original series. Around Ep5 to forcefully teleport Arf against her will under barrier conditions, and another time in Ep9 to force transport Nanoha and himself into Fate and Arf's barrier.

Quote:
2) Haven't seen much use of combat teleportation either. When was the last time someone teleported into combat? Chrono's intro in the first season? Maybe there's a reason for that too.
Did you see Lutecia's wonderful use of teleportation tactics? When they grab her, they just have to make her an instructor!

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3) Well, they declined to use it to get to gain distance on the Book. If I had been able to teleport away from the YnS-mod Starlight Breaker, I would have. Then again her barrier might have been special. Was the Book after all.
Well, they don't know how big the SB would be, so they cannot set a distance.

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4 specializes in fooling electronic systems, which the Midchildan mission control scanners use. Shamal uses a rare form of ancient magic with a highly specialized device. Regarding 'professionalism', Shamal probably has a hundred times the experience of everyone in RF6 mission control put together.
Actually, it seems to have no particular specialization. In any case, Midchildra does not really have much distinction between "electronics" (optronics? astralronics?) and "magic" - it is all one big lump. For Shamal's specialization, the device (and herself) is a Generic Rear Support Device covering various fields like Defense, Healing as well as Sensing. The idea that it can be more "specialized" than a dedicated scanner or scanning crew is absurd.

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I don't think the power density on AoE spells is all that low. The Book's certainly weren't.
Actually, it was relatively low, especially on the outer ends. Do you think if Starlight Breaker had been fired by the Book in Nanoha's beam rather than that glowing blob, they could have defended against it with Protection Powered (IIRC it was Protection) and Defensor Plus?

It is a matter of physics that for a given power, AoE attacks will have a lower power density than concentrated beam attacks.

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And despite the pyrotechnics they were trying to capture 4 and 10; it's very possible Hayate's DE wasn't meant to do more than herd them into the Fate/Nanoha vice. I'm assuming our little hypothetical combat allows for bloodshed.
Yes, but all we have is that shot, so we take the measurements. It makes perfect sense that the Numbers will have a good degree of resistance against magic anyway.

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Also, as a separate issue the numbers just aren't a very good matchup for all the main characters together. Even if Hayate was reduced to hiding behind the Wolkenritter support casters and their shields the whole battle, the flight-capable numbers don't have the combat power to take Fate/Nanoha/Signum/Vita together. Their two strongest fighters (wingblades and boomerangs) can hold off Fate, and if we're really, REALLY generous maybe the inferior twinblades and raystorm can handle Nanoha... but who does that leave to deal with Signum and Vita? Rollerblades and surfboard? That's a five-second fight, and then the other four are hosed.
I said that they were in a "horrible situation", did I. The point of the thought exercise was to demonstrate how potentially easy it is even for an moderately (though not overwhelmingly) inferior force to get through to someone with no close combat capability in the chaos of combat, thus illustrating the naivety of Hayate's combat "doctrine".

You might notice, BTW, that Wingblade and Boomerang were actually winning slowly but surely against Fate, and they weren't looking particularly forced - the only person starting to look exhausted is Fate. Before you blame the AMF, they were winning slowly but surely in Ep17 too - it'd have taken time but in the end they'd have won from the looks of it. Which suggests if it really came down to it, 1 would be able to tie or at least hold out for a while against even an Ace. Twinblades and Raystorm took out 2 of the Wolkenritter rapidly enough (one strike each), even counting their fatigue, I'd give them odds to at least give the two more powerful ones a good run for their money. That leaves Hayate almost wide open.
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Old 2007-09-02, 10:16   Link #68
arkhangelsk
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Brought over from Generic Discussion

Refer to Post 1358

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
The structure of the unit makes it difficult to hold a credible reserve since it doesn't have a third unit equivalent to Stars/Lightning nor an equivalent to a heavy weapons company. There isn't enough transport to support a third ground maneuver element anyways. As it stands, there's no organic transport to move Stars and Lighting separately by air so even those can't really be treated as independent maneuver elements. Using the Aces separately from the forwards makes for unbalanced combat groups which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it makes RF6 more unwieldy when its commander is already found wanting.

It would be more difficult to use a true triangular unit so inappropriately as has been demonstrated in the show. It kind of makes you wonder what kind of base TOE RF6 is using or if it is using any at all.
To speak in the unit composition's defense, the simple truth is that RF6 has no base for its TOE. It definitely hasn't been tried in the TASB. Any good mage is an instant officer and used individually, while enlisted (i.e. wimp) mages are in large groups. 1-1 ratios of officers to enlisted mages simply hasn't been tried before. Finding inspiration in the units of Earth would also be difficult because this kind of thing is kind out of our experience.

It does, to be fair, also have a Heavy Weapons unit - Hayate herself. You can make an ersatz maneuver reserve out of Zafira and reinforce it by pulling the two Knights out of the line.

But really, who were they kidding anyway. Limiting ourselves to the chosen raw material, there are two real teams in RF6. The air team and the ground team. The ground team, as the Numbers already noticed, really need all 4 of them as a unit to really become effective, and they would almost never be working with the commanders, especially with Fate who has her own duties.

Since Teana is shaping up to be a relatively effective commander (she seems to be the one who can retain any tactical brain cells all the way to Ep26), let her lead the enlisted and forget about pretending there are two teams. Then have the air mages as another group and use them in pairs (preferably in 4s, but this is the TSAB with its Dispersal Policy).

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This is where the limited mage ranks per unit make things very ugly.
To be fair, this is where the limited supply of good officer mages make things very tricky.

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Spoiler for Things I agree with and thus don't need comment:
Even with perfect communication, a TSAB CO can't be expected to fight well and command several companies at the same time. If they take the time to fight, then they can't focus on commanding and lose combat power indirectly. If they take time to command, then they're losing combat power directly. In RF6's case, the CO's nominal combat strength is greater than any of its component units leaving the CO with a nasty dilemma.
Well, that's easy, now that we found out she has all the close combat coefficients of Caro...

I think we've already seen what the TASB does in this dilemma is to create a strongly hierarchical structure. Concentrate most of the allocation for one commander (the battalion or ship commander) and one adjutant (they call it the Executive Officer). Now put the rest of the allocation among about a company of troops.

Because of the strongly sloping effectiveness of mages (a good one beats a hundred wimps), there really is little point in having "average" mages (platoon commanders) in moderate quantities. Just get one or two of the best mages you can, and see if you have enough left to make a bunch of somewhat useful enlisted number-fillers. Leave the rest as support led by a chief of staff - no, of course he's not a mage.

This actually works (most of the time) because the TSAB is a paramilitary rather than a full military organization. Most problems can be solved by lower ranks working in small groups. It is not like a military where two companies of a battalion have to be on line with a third ready to follow on a few minutes notice. The Executive officer will most often be leading a small squad, instead of a full company, much less battalion.

Further, a TSAB commander does have a few advantages. Several Earth militaries also have battalion commanders come out to fight (the Soviets, and IIRC the Americans) and certainly all militaries have their company commanders fight. A Earth CO on the front is as vulnerable as his subordinates, while a TSAB CO would be much better protected and survivable. Units in the TSAB really revolve around their front-line CO. If you try to talk to a platoon leader and he doesn't respond, you don't need to talk to his platoon again because it is either dead or will be finished off in the next minute by the enemy. He also doesn't have to play around with the complex process of calling in artillery - the front line CO is already the unit's artillery.

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They really should be training the way they intend to fight. Training to fight in two different ways greatly increases the amount of training needed.
Well, they are doing the best they can in the face of a totally moronic limiter scheme. To find a silver lining in it, it may also give her a small sense of what it feels like to fight in AMF - more relative effort for every move for lesser results.
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Old 2007-09-02, 13:03   Link #69
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I overlooked this thread somehow. I think I must have read it as "military authority in Nanoha" The outlook has changed a lot since mid-July. I miss the old Hayate from when she used to be competent

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Refer to Post 1358

To speak in the unit composition's defense, the simple truth is that RF6 has no base for its TOE. It definitely hasn't been tried in the TASB. Any good mage is an instant officer and used individually, while enlisted (i.e. wimp) mages are in large groups. 1-1 ratios of officers to enlisted mages simply hasn't been tried before. Finding inspiration in the units of Earth would also be difficult because this kind of thing is kind out of our experience.
It is ironic yet not surprising that a unit with so many "leaders" has so many fundamental leadership issues. Then again, most of the problems aren't through conflicts with command authority but through inaction.

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It does, to be fair, also have a Heavy Weapons unit - Hayate herself. You can make an ersatz maneuver reserve out of Zafira and reinforce it by pulling the two Knights out of the line.
She's more of an artillery unit than a heavy weapons unit as she has no real capacity for personal defense. She doesn't have the close to mid-range firepower that machine guns would normally provide. If she sends Zafira et al out to the fight and then she's attacked, then she's out of the fight. All these limitations make it more difficult to hold a credible reserve.

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But really, who were they kidding anyway. Limiting ourselves to the chosen raw material, there are two real teams in RF6. The air team and the ground team. The ground team, as the Numbers already noticed, really need all 4 of them as a unit to really become effective, and they would almost never be working with the commanders, especially with Fate who has her own duties.
I agree with that. It is kind of what I was saying. The problem though is that they aren't organized that way, haven't really trained that way or employed that way. We have seen them train as forwards versus aces once but I question the usefulness of the training for the aces when the forwards are at such a huge disadvantage. The aces can handicap themselves but then they wouldn't be fighting the way they would normally fight and they can't make the forwards fly.

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Since Teana is shaping up to be a relatively effective commander (she seems to be the one who can retain any tactical brain cells all the way to Ep26), let her lead the enlisted and forget about pretending there are two teams. Then have the air mages as another group and use them in pairs (preferably in 4s, but this is the TSAB with its Dispersal Policy).
It is nice seeing at least one competent character. Giving up the farce of two forward teams that can't even be employed separately would definitely be a good idea. They fight together so they should be organized and do their training accordingly.

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Well, that's easy, now that we found out she has all the close combat coefficients of Caro...

I think we've already seen what the TASB does in this dilemma is to create a strongly hierarchical structure. Concentrate most of the allocation for one commander (the battalion or ship commander) and one adjutant (they call it the Executive Officer). Now put the rest of the allocation among about a company of troops.

This actually works (most of the time) because the TSAB is a paramilitary rather than a full military organization. Most problems can be solved by lower ranks working in small groups. It is not like a military where two companies of a battalion have to be on line with a third ready to follow on a few minutes notice. The Executive officer will most often be leading a small squad, instead of a full company, much less battalion.
Right, that was disappointing but not surprising for that to pop up about Hayate. Well, then there's no question about having her lead one of the maneuver units. Maybe they would be satisfied Hayate piloted a desk and a small one at that.

It makes sense to keep the unit small if the commander needs to play such a large role in the fighting. The mages will all need to have similar mobility or the unit will need enough organic air transport to avoid RF6's mobility problems. Is the battalion (company-strength) the basic maneuver unit of the TSAB or is it the battalion sub-unit (platoon-strength)? The TSAB itself seems to consider the individual to be the basic maneuver unit, capable of operating independently and supporting itself for extended periods

If they want their battalions to operate independently, then they mages for some of the support tasks like reconnaissance and MP duties. They can either be organic or attached but they need to be there.

All of this leaves the TSAB with extremely small battalions with teeth to tail ratios typical of at least a divisional or maybe even a corps-sized unit. I don't think we'd ever see an actual TSAB division without even more logic-defying powers.

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Further, a TSAB commander does have a few advantages. Several Earth militaries also have battalion commanders come out to fight (the Soviets, and IIRC the Americans) and certainly all militaries have their company commanders fight. A Earth CO on the front is as vulnerable as his subordinates, while a TSAB CO would be much better protected and survivable.
That's a good point. Unfortunately, it doesn't apply to RF6 and Hayate.

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Units in the TSAB really revolve around their front-line CO. If you try to talk to a platoon leader and he doesn't respond, you don't need to talk to his platoon again because it is either dead or will be finished off in the next minute by the enemy. He also doesn't have to play around with the complex process of calling in artillery - the front line CO is already the unit's artillery.
Agreed.

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Well, they are doing the best they can in the face of a totally moronic limiter scheme. To find a silver lining in it, it may also give her a small sense of what it feels like to fight in AMF - more relative effort for every move for lesser results.
Ironic how the way they're fighting without limiters is probably at least somewhat justifiable in spite of the writing.
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Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-09-02 at 13:59.
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Old 2007-09-02, 17:49   Link #70
Frankenstein's Clare
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Taken here from Post 406 of the Manga thread.

True, but he did do it in the original series. Around Ep5 to forcefully teleport Arf against her will under barrier conditions, and another time in Ep9 to force transport Nanoha and himself into Fate and Arf's barrier.
5- His barrier, not hers.
9- They use 'barrier' for all types of field effects. Fate had asked Arf for a 'spatial barrier' a term that could be very general or very specific, we don't know. But at any rate capture/prison barriers are those shown to be effective against teleport in A's.

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Did you see Lutecia's wonderful use of teleportation tactics? When they grab her, they just have to make her an instructor!
Just seen chunks of unsubbed eps. If you're referring to her summoning, that seems to be a special case. And yes, a very tactically useful one.

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Well, they don't know how big the SB would be, so they cannot set a distance.
They can go to the edge of the barrier. Why not play it safe against something you know is going to kill you if it hits anywhere near you?

Hey, actually... the Arthra teleported Arisa and Suzuka out of the barrier, even though it was the same type as Vita's. Plothole!

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Actually, it seems to have no particular specialization. In any case, Midchildra does not really have much distinction between "electronics" (optronics? astralronics?) and "magic" - it is all one big lump. For Shamal's specialization, the device (and herself) is a Generic Rear Support Device covering various fields like Defense, Healing as well as Sensing. The idea that it can be more "specialized" than a dedicated scanner or scanning crew is absurd.
My turn to ask you if you've been watching the series. 'Lies and illusions woven of electricity' is the quote, I believe. Her description also notes that she specializes in ECM (didn't you help translate that?). And she pulled the hack job on army HQ's systems. She's good at messing with conventional tech (at least what passes on modern Midchilda for 'conventional tech'- it includes electronics, at any rate), and the 'dedicated scanners' presumably use a lot of conventional tech, being operated by non-mages.

Shamal's device's alternate form (the pendulum/portal) is dedicated to scanning operations. It was she, not the scanning tech and officers on the Arthra, that provided the teleport lock on the Defense Program's core. And again, in terms of experience, there's no way a room full of 20somethings can come close to her.

It's absurd to think she's 'more specialized' than a single-function conventional-tech suite, but that doesn't mean she isn't better.

But the real point is Quattro's specialization, which is against electronic systems. The conventional-tech scanners are something she's used to fooling, Shamal's magic is something she might have a passing familiarity with through Lutecia but that she's almost certainly never had to work against before.

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Actually, it was relatively low, especially on the outer ends. Do you think if Starlight Breaker had been fired by the Book in Nanoha's beam rather than that glowing blob, they could have defended against it with Protection Powered (IIRC it was Protection) and Defensor Plus?
No. But hitting them directly with the beam is totally unnecessary; just landing the shot within a few hundred feet would have been enough. They were far enough out that the blast wave took half a minute to reach them but Nanoha was still using two cartridges for her barrier. I think it's fair to say that if they'd actually been anywhere near the point of impact they'd have been vaporized. (Energy density in an expanding shell is an inverse-square equation, so as you move them closer to the point of impact the energy load on the barrier gets a lot higher.)

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It is a matter of physics that for a given power, AoE attacks will have a lower power density than concentrated beam attacks.
As per the above, that doesn't mean they can't be powerful. It just means that if you only have one target and accuracy isn't an issue you might as well use a beam. As a tangent, the beams have their own, much smaller efficiency issue in that they tend to deliver energy over a fairly long period of time. If the defenses dissipate energy quickly the max load on the defense will be a lot smaller than if it was delivered in a short period.

And of course, all this assumes that all uses of magical energy are equal. The spatial distortion created by diabolic emission, for example, might have effect against most magical defenses out of proportion with the input energy needed to create it.

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Yes, but all we have is that shot, so we take the measurements. It makes perfect sense that the Numbers will have a good degree of resistance against magic anyway.
4 in particular has high magic defense.

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You might notice, BTW, that Wingblade and Boomerang were actually winning slowly but surely against Fate, and they weren't looking particularly forced - the only person starting to look exhausted is Fate. Before you blame the AMF, they were winning slowly but surely in Ep17 too - it'd have taken time but in the end they'd have won from the looks of it. Which suggests if it really came down to it, 1 would be able to tie or at least hold out for a while against even an Ace. Twinblades and Raystorm took out 2 of the Wolkenritter rapidly enough (one strike each), even counting their fatigue, I'd give them odds to at least give the two more powerful ones a good run for their money. That leaves Hayate almost wide open.
Am blaming AMF. Battle in 17 showed no signs of favoring either side- Fate took one deep breath after a protracted exchange of blows. That isn't a sign of being worn down. And as far as I know she still hadn't released her limiter.

Descriptions specifically state that Wingblade and Boomerang are their best aerial combatants. Twinblades and Raystorm are competent but they aren't in the same league. I don't see how success against two AA support casters fighting with all sorts of handicaps makes them a match for an S+ aerial combat specialist. And for nitpicking's sake, Raystorm was already onscene and fighting when they cut to Shamal and Zafira's defeat- it wasn't one blow each.

And I still think the numbers would take casualties before they even made it into close combat. Signum has her bow, Fate has her weather control, Nanoha's a beam sniper and Hayate is basically a strategic missile sub. The only significant cover the numbers are going to get is going to come from raystorm, who we already know Shamal can neutralize one-to-one.

((You just moved this here and now the topic is changing into something more appropriate to the magic and tech thread. Sorry about this -_-.))
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Old 2007-09-02, 18:00   Link #71
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Many words...
I read through your post and I'm confused as to what exactly what your central argument is here. Is there some main point of contention?
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Old 2007-09-02, 19:12   Link #72
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We are debating how if it got down to it, how fast Hayate's lack of close combat capability will be her downfall.
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Old 2007-09-02, 19:33   Link #73
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We are debating how if it got down to it, how fast Hayate's lack of close combat capability will be her downfall.
I'm sure Frankenstein's Clare would frame that differently

My first thought, in regards to close combat, is that the Strikers Hayate would simply disengage. It would take her out of the fight but would be the most "efficient" thing to do. She seems to have some kind of magical power that allows her to completely disappear at critical moments.
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Old 2007-09-02, 20:11   Link #74
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Yeah, the argument kind of fell apart into a bunch of nitpicking because I didn't like ark's example battle.

He thinks that it's indefensible for someone with Hayate's magic potential to never learn how to defend herself in a one-on-one confrontation and has been arguing that Nanohaverse combat is sufficiently fluid that she can't count on the Wolkenritter to protect her.

I've been arguing that high-ranking TSAB mages aren't expected to fight and her choice to pursue her career to the exclusion of personal magical power is sensible for someone with her goals.

Basically I'm an apologist at heart and need to find logical reasons for everything to be the way it is (combat teleportation is rare- must be easily blocked, Hayate never learned good combat skills- must be hard enough for her that it would have impinged on her career-building goals), while he, like the majority of this thread, is fine with just saying the writers made the characters stupid and leaving it at that.
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Old 2007-09-02, 21:10   Link #75
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Originally Posted by Frankenstein's Clare View Post
Yeah, the argument kind of fell apart into a bunch of nitpicking because I didn't like ark's example battle.

He thinks that it's indefensible for someone with Hayate's magic potential to never learn how to defend herself in a one-on-one confrontation and has been arguing that Nanohaverse combat is sufficiently fluid that she can't count on the Wolkenritter to protect her.

I've been arguing that high-ranking TSAB mages aren't expected to fight and her choice to pursue her career to the exclusion of personal magical power is sensible for someone with her goals.

Basically I'm an apologist at heart and need to find logical reasons for everything to be the way it is (combat teleportation is rare- must be easily blocked, Hayate never learned good combat skills- must be hard enough for her that it would have impinged on her career-building goals), while he, like the majority of this thread, is fine with just saying the writers made the characters stupid and leaving it at that.
I can't really say I envy that position. Whether deliberately or not, the writers seem to be making the show more and more difficult to defend. There may be some in-universe explanations but writers' treatment of Hayate is apathetic at best.

I posted this before regarding force structure. I think it is relevant to the discussion. The writers were already expecting Hayate to perform to many functions for RF6 and the retconn with regards to close combat skills make those expectations even more unreasonable.

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Normally a company CO only represents a small fraction of a unit's combat strength since they're still really one rifleman out a couple hundred. A battalion CO might have a rifle but the rifle is really only for personal defense as they can do far more through commanding their unit than acting as a rifleman. The CO of a combat unit in the TSAB really needs to be an experienced mage and ideally one that can fly so that they have the mobility to go anywhere the unit needs to go as the situation demands. If they aren't a mage or can't fly, then they really need an adjutant with equivalent powers. If you have neither, then you're left with a CO that can't make any personal observations of the frontline, no one act as a liaison with other units that are deployed in the air and perform similar functions.

Even with perfect communication, a TSAB CO can't be expected to fight well and command several companies at the same time. If they take the time to fight, then they can't focus on commanding and lose combat power indirectly. If they take time to command, then they're losing combat power directly. In RF6's case, the CO's nominal combat strength is greater than any of its component units leaving the CO with a nasty dilemma.
If Hayate can't be committed to the fight or is forced to disengage for any reason, RF6 forfeits a huge fraction of its combat power. The slot she's taking up counts against the unit's limiters but her lack of close combat skills makes it more likely that she won't be able to be committed at the main effort or be forced to disengage.

Worse still, while she is capable of flying, she can't personally direct the main effort or make personal observations without having escorts that RF6 can't afford to detach. In Episodes 17 and 21 RF6 is unable to mass decisive combat power anywhere. Any mages that are used to escort Hayate make it that much less likely that they'll be able to mass that decisive combat power unless Hayate herself is able to fight.

Unfortunately, Hayate's lack of close combat skills rob her of her tactical mobility and her ability to command properly. Instead of reconciling any of those demands, the writers have pretty much chosen to ignore her which makes the efforts she made to be a commander all the more disappointing.

Is it reasonable for Hayate not to work on her close combat skills?
Maybe.

Does it cost the RF6 combat power from both ends?
Definitely.

Can RF6 afford to lose that combat power?
Episodes 17-22 and military logic say no. Episodes 23-26 and the writers say yes.
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Old 2007-09-03, 00:58   Link #76
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Originally Posted by Frankenstein's Clare View Post
5- His barrier, not hers.
Fate was there first so her barrier would be up.

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They can go to the edge of the barrier. Why not play it safe against something you know is going to kill you if it hits anywhere near you?
Possibly it also takes enough time to set up they think their best chance is to concentrate on flying as fast as they can, not freeze to transport.

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Hey, actually... the Arthra teleported Arisa and Suzuka out of the barrier, even though it was the same type as Vita's. Plothole!
There we go.

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My turn to ask you if you've been watching the series. 'Lies and illusions woven of electricity' is the quote, I believe.
Yes, we also, however, see them clearly fooling the eyes (optronics) as well.

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Her description also notes that she specializes in ECM (didn't you help translate that?). And she pulled the hack job on army HQ's systems. She's good at messing with conventional tech (at least what passes on modern Midchilda for 'conventional tech'- it includes electronics, at any rate),
In Midchildra, magic is handled by electronics. Scarlietti's non-reliance on magic is an exception, not the norm.

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Shamal's device's alternate form (the pendulum/portal) is dedicated to scanning operations. It was she, not the scanning tech and officers on the Arthra, that provided the teleport lock on the Defense Program's core. And again, in terms of experience, there's no way a room full of 20somethings can come close to her.

It's absurd to think she's 'more specialized' than a single-function conventional-tech suite, but that doesn't mean she isn't better.
There are limits to what a little device can do in comparison to a massive computer room and sensor array. If the BoD's devices had such a massive superiority, the TSAB won't be able to even maintain the devices, let alone improve on them.

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As per the above, that doesn't mean they can't be powerful.
Yes, they can be powerful, but they cannot be really efficient against point targets.

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It just means that if you only have one target and accuracy isn't an issue you might as well use a beam.
In fact, it is when you can have accuracy that you use a beam. If you can't aim, you have to use omindirectionals.

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As a tangent, the beams have their own, much smaller efficiency issue in that they tend to deliver energy over a fairly long period of time. If the defenses dissipate energy quickly the max load on the defense will be a lot smaller than if it was delivered in a short period.
A expanding bomb is also spread over a long period of time. You first touch the surface, then the innards of the blast that's pushing the outer surface ever outwards. Besides, time is a linear function, while the spread of an omnidirectional bomb is actually a CUBIC function.

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Am blaming AMF. Battle in 17 showed no signs of favoring either side- Fate took one deep breath after a protracted exchange of blows.
Listen to the acoustics. There's no way you can hear that and conclude Fate is winning. She's already suffering from the beginning of inaerobic respiration - in a few minutes it'd graduate to full time panting. And even she seems to agree with 3 and 7's proposition that she won't be able to beat them next time, and she didn't. Fortunately, 7Arcs will no doubt help her cheat.

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And as far as I know she still hadn't released her limiter.
According to Zest, he was detecting over-S, so Fate had already cleared off her limiter. She does have a Limit Break, but it seems like something that'd break herself along with the target so she isn't using it.

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Descriptions specifically state that Wingblade and Boomerang are their best aerial combatants. Twinblades and Raystorm are competent but they aren't in the same league.
The difference between "competent", "good" and best are difficult to determine.

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I don't see how success against two AA support casters fighting with all sorts of handicaps makes them a match for an S+ aerial combat specialist.
Not S+. They are only AAA+ and S-. 3 and 7 have the two S+ as their primary tasking, though if I'm the Numbers I'd pull a 4 on 4 instead of allowing 4 sets of 1 on 1s.

If Raystorm and Twinblades merely won that's one thing. But they were doing basically one-turn kills (at most 2).

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And for nitpicking's sake, Raystorm was already onscene and fighting when they cut to Shamal and Zafira's defeat- it wasn't one blow each.
Raystorm from what I can see watched coldly from a distance as they killed drones. After awhile she decides to commit and makes her little speech. Her first blow took some time to penetrate but eventually did. At this time, Zafira was taken down by 12's blow. When Raystorm fired the 2nd blow, Shamal couldn't raise a new barrier - both were combat ineffective. The 2nd blow cut their HP to zero.

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And I still think the numbers would take casualties before they even made it into close combat. Signum has her bow, Fate has her weather control, Nanoha's a beam sniper and Hayate is basically a strategic missile sub. The only significant cover the numbers are going to get is going to come from raystorm, who we already know Shamal can neutralize one-to-one.
She could barely hold out, and eventually Raystorm plowed through, remember? And before you saw she was just distracted and thus those cards failed, the attack drained so much power she could no longer set up a new set of cards.

Actually, they'd also have 7 for coverage. Remember her first attack on Fate. It was actually a near BVR shot - Fate did not see them, only the flash from the shot warned her (or was that the bullet closing?)

The fact that sensors don't seem too good at detecting Numbers unless they are powering up S class attacks along with the fact that they have visual magnification and infra-red vision suggests that in truth, first contact and thus first shot could easily go to the Numbers - you won't shoot at targets you don't even see.

If you went by capabilities and made a perfect plan your scenario will come to pass. But then, as I agreed from the beginning, the Numbers were on the bad side of the coefficient and numbers, so if the Aces played their cards perfectly, in theory you are right - they could stop them from reaching Hayate.

However, that has little to do with the real way these characters play their cards. If Signum is your type, she'd have sniped Zest in the back with Storm Falcon, not tried to engage in melee and wind up ruining Laevantein's scabbard (so much for Bow Form, I guess).

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((You just moved this here and now the topic is changing into something more appropriate to the magic and tech thread. Sorry about this -_-.))
Ah, let's just keep it here for awhile. No one but the three of us is using this playground Besides, we are discussing Decisionmaking of our aces, too
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Old 2007-09-03, 01:53   Link #77
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
According to Zest, he was detecting over-S, so Fate had already cleared off her limiter.
Do we necessarily know that the limiter would cause Fate to be detected at a lower ranking? She is an S+, presumably with power reserves to match - do we know that whatever detection method is being used would trigger on Fate's limiter-reduced power output rather than her actual inherent magic level?

(If it does, then it seems to me that a self-releasable limiter would be remarkably useful as a covert-ops stealth tool.)

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The fact that sensors don't seem too good at detecting Numbers unless they are powering up S class attacks along with the fact that they have visual magnification and infra-red vision suggests that in truth, first contact and thus first shot could easily go to the Numbers - you won't shoot at targets you don't even see.
The Numbers' own sensing abilities seem to be rather variable.
Spoiler for ep. 23:
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Old 2007-09-03, 02:19   Link #78
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Originally Posted by Guppy View Post
Do we necessarily know that the limiter would cause Fate to be detected at a lower ranking? She is an S+, presumably with power reserves to match - do we know that whatever detection method is being used would trigger on Fate's limiter-reduced power output rather than her actual inherent magic level?

(If it does, then it seems to me that a self-releasable limiter would be remarkably useful as a covert-ops stealth tool.)
Vita never had any "limiter release" scene either despite being limited, unless we want to think that Zest himself was limited when he fought Vita. We need to base it on reasonable assumption, and I think Fate/Signum/Vita = released is viable to be accurate in that situation.

And AMF is not shown to be so powerful that it can nerf an S+ to around AA rank. It only tires them, and makes magic fusion and concentration harder, but not really 'weaken' them in the literal sense. It's a disadvantage to them, but it's not that powerful to those used to them.
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Old 2007-09-03, 03:31   Link #79
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Vita never had any "limiter release" scene either despite being limited, unless we want to think that Zest himself was limited when he fought Vita. We need to base it on reasonable assumption, and I think Fate/Signum/Vita = released is viable to be accurate in that situation.
I can see what you're saying. What bothers me is that I don't recall Hayate ever actually being in communication with the others to give the release order. Maybe she could have done it telepathically, despite the presence of the drones' AMF... but then I'd have expected that Nanoha, Fate and Hayate would all have linked into the RF6 command net from inside the building as soon as the balloon went up, and they didn't.

Vita/Zest certainly lasted longer than you'd expect if Vita was restricted and Zest wasn't, but both Rein and Agito made a point of commenting that Vita/Rein worked together better than Agito/Zest, which might have dragged out the duel a bit. When Zest finally cut loose, though, he alone was enough to thoroughly pound both Vita and Rein... whereas later, Zest and Agito combined don't produce anywhere near the same effect on Signum and Rein.

(I'd normally put that down to Signum being a lot tougher than Vita, except that Signum's S- isn't all that different to Vita's AAA+... what is a "minus" rank, anyway? The way everybody's been talking, "+" represents a half-rank, so what's "-"? Is Signum AAA and three-quarters?)

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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
And AMF is not shown to be so powerful that it can nerf an S+ to around AA rank. It only tires them, and makes magic fusion and concentration harder, but not really 'weaken' them in the literal sense. It's a disadvantage to them, but it's not that powerful to those used to them.
The A's to StrikerS manga seemed to suggest that, although attacking an AMF-protected target was no particular problem for experienced mages, it was no picnic actually being inside the field - and Nanoha and Fate were already S-ranked by then.

We also know that AMFs have differing power levels; it's possible that a higher-level field could be used inside a base compared to that generated by the average Gadget Drone, considering the base's greater power output and lack of space constraints.
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Old 2007-09-03, 04:06   Link #80
Frankenstein's Clare
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Fate was there first so her barrier would be up.
Unless I missed something, the only barrier that went up was the one Yuuno used for the transfer. They don't need a barrier to do the sealing; Nanoha did her first few without any.

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Yes, we also, however, see them clearly fooling the eyes (optronics) as well.
I'm aware that she uses visual illusions. What I'm differentiating between is device-based caster-guided scanning versus conventional-tech scanning.

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In Midchildra, magic is handled by electronics. Scarlietti's non-reliance on magic is an exception, not the norm.

There are limits to what a little device can do in comparison to a massive computer room and sensor array. If the BoD's devices had such a massive superiority, the TSAB won't be able to even maintain the devices, let alone improve on them.
Lol? The last time I checked the average drone is a lot bigger than RH, but they don't really compare as weapons. This is still a magical girl anime. The devices have the intrinsic advantage of having an actual mage attached. If large tech-operated magitech systems could consistently outperform a mage-device pair, there wouldn't be a show.

Recall that Precia, who had an interdimensional asteroid base that made RF6's HQ look pretty dinky and a legion of mecha guardians, considered the expense and difficulty of acquiring Bardiche extreme. High-end devices are a highly refined artisan-craft technology (look at how much effort goes into their maintenance!), not a PDA. And they have that mage.

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A expanding bomb is also spread over a long period of time. You first touch the surface, then the innards of the blast that's pushing the outer surface ever outwards. Besides, time is a linear function, while the spread of an omnidirectional bomb is actually a CUBIC function.
That's why I said it as a tangent and that it was a much smaller efficiency issue. But anyway, looking at the YnS-SB blast there's an outer shell of very dense magic (whatever 'magic' is...) maybe a hundred feet deep that hits them and is gone in about the space of a second. There are instances of beam attacks continuing for quite a bit longer.

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Listen to the acoustics. There's no way you can hear that and conclude Fate is winning. She's already suffering from the beginning of inaerobic respiration - in a few minutes it'd graduate to full time panting. And even she seems to agree with 3 and 7's proposition that she won't be able to beat them next time, and she didn't. Fortunately, 7Arcs will no doubt help her cheat.
Panting only makes anime characters stronger. But listening to it again I agree with you. I guess I'll have to drop my standing disrespect for the numbers for the dogfighting duo. Rest are still overrated though.

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According to Zest, he was detecting over-S, so Fate had already cleared off her limiter. She does have a Limit Break, but it seems like something that'd break herself along with the target so she isn't using it.
Good catch. Though since Hayate's communications were down I don't know how she would have given authorization. Plothole either way.

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The difference between "competent", "good" and best are difficult to determine.
Excuse me while I develop telepathy so our discussion is no longer encumbered by the use of language and the inherent subjectivity that attends it.

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Not S+. They are only AAA+ and S-. 3 and 7 have the two S+ as their primary tasking, though if I'm the Numbers I'd pull a 4 on 4 instead of allowing 4 sets of 1 on 1s.
I was assuming the numbers have to double team Fate and Nanoha, because that's the only way they've gotten anywhere against them so far. I don't see how you can argue that four 1v1s would end in anything but crushing defeat for the numbers.

4v4 is more difficult to predict since the numbers are specialists and you'd expect group combat to help make up for their deficiencies as such, but I don't think it's going to make that big a difference. It isn't like Nanoha/Fate and Signum/Vita aren't used to fighting together and covering each other. And Nanoha and Vita are tactics instructors. They aren't total rubes.

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If Raystorm and Twinblades merely won that's one thing. But they were doing basically one-turn kills (at most 2).

Raystorm from what I can see watched coldly from a distance as they killed drones. After awhile she decides to commit and makes her little speech. Her first blow took some time to penetrate but eventually did. At this time, Zafira was taken down by 12's blow. When Raystorm fired the 2nd blow, Shamal couldn't raise a new barrier - both were combat ineffective. The 2nd blow cut their HP to zero.
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She could barely hold out, and eventually Raystorm plowed through, remember? And before you saw she was just distracted and thus those cards failed, the attack drained so much power she could no longer set up a new set of cards.
1) I don't see how finishing off a pair of support casters who were so beat-up they could barely stand is supposed to make them a match for Nanoha.

2) It's still canon that raystorm and twinblades are inferior to wingblades and boomerangs as aerial combatants.

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Actually, they'd also have 7 for coverage. Remember her first attack on Fate. It was actually a near BVR shot - Fate did not see them, only the flash from the shot warned her (or was that the bullet closing?)
Boomerangs' shot definitely looks to be the most powerful non-IS attack we've seen out of a number, but it still didn't look like it was any more powerful than, say, plasma lancer to me. The numbers are specialists to a fault, even moreso than the Knights, and the only one who can carry their weight in a long-range aerial confrontation is raystorm.

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The fact that sensors don't seem too good at detecting Numbers unless they are powering up S class attacks along with the fact that they have visual magnification and infra-red vision suggests that in truth, first contact and thus first shot could easily go to the Numbers - you won't shoot at targets you don't even see.
Which is where Shamal's superiority to Long Arch as AWACS comes in.

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However, that has little to do with the real way these characters play their cards. If Signum is your type, she'd have sniped Zest in the back with Storm Falcon, not tried to engage in melee and wind up ruining Laevantein's scabbard (so much for Bow Form, I guess).
The entire point of your scenario is that the numbers are trying to outmaneuver Hayate's squad to score an easy kill on Hayate. I can't imagine a situation where Signum would be any more likely to go for the bow. "Decided we'd throw away even our honor to protect our master," remember?

Also as far as I'm concerned that Signum/Zest battle never happened. Ever. She never caught up with him.
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