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View Poll Results: Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 11 25.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 18 40.91%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 10 22.73%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 9.09%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 2.27%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-09-08, 08:17   Link #421
grey_moon
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Thus nobody is missing your point - we know he has superior intelligence.
Errrr you just missed my point

Scags has compromised their comms and he has inside help from before RF6 were even conceived. That's my point. His superior intelligence just means he can use these advantages a lot better.

*Edit*

Many apologies I just re-read your message, and I whilst you may see the point, the earlier posts were not taking this into account.

Especially since Hayate has certain responsibilities, she can't just ignore certain things the same way that scags can
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Last edited by grey_moon; 2007-09-08 at 08:25. Reason: spelling
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Old 2007-09-08, 08:28   Link #422
arkhangelsk
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I didn't mean "intelligence" in terms of brainpower here, though Scarlietti is probably a brighter chap too.

Intelligence here is used in the sense of SIGINT and the like. Though frankly, I got a feeling that TSAB communications aren't even encrypted, so...

It is his obviously superior radzvedka and preparation that allows him to use Economy of Force and not get blasted.

That's even though we all know he'd have to fail somewhere or another in order to bring about our protagonist's victory. Go read Ep23 thread or just grab a FLSnow fansub off the torrent. You'd notice no one blames Scarlietti. That's because he prepared and his decision was logical given the theoretical correlation of forces.
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Old 2007-09-08, 09:53   Link #423
Kinny Riddle
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Spoiler for Off-topic:


Anyway, finally we're starting to warm up to battles that everyone's waiting for, even Yuuno and Arf make their re-appearance. And already we have a girl impaled, in the chest. VITA~~!!!

I got a question concerning last episode: Who were those three "Brainiacs" that were killed by Jail's cyborg girl? I know they were the ones who created the evil genius of Jail and were his ultimate sponsors, using Mr. T, er, I mean Regius, as a cover.
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Old 2007-09-08, 10:05   Link #424
Jimmy C
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They were the TSAB High Council. They gave up their bodies about 150 years ago to watch over the world and dimensional space.
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Old 2007-09-08, 10:05   Link #425
Tormenk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle View Post

Who were those three "Brainiacs" that were killed by Jail's cyborg girl? I know they were the ones who created the evil genius of Jail and were his ultimate sponsors, using Mr. T, er, I mean Regius, as a cover.
The TSAB High Council, if I'm not wrong.
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Old 2007-09-08, 12:21   Link #426
Gearhead
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Remember what Uno's Influential Skill does?

It's a system that allows her to connect to computers remotely without using normal networking protocols. She's sort of like a cyberpath. This means.. she can read a computer's 'mind' remotely, without tripping any sort of intrusion alert.
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Old 2007-09-08, 12:28   Link #427
grey_moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I didn't mean "intelligence" in terms of brainpower here, though Scarlietti is probably a brighter chap too.

Intelligence here is used in the sense of SIGINT and the like. Though frankly, I got a feeling that TSAB communications aren't even encrypted, so...

It is his obviously superior radzvedka and preparation that allows him to use Economy of Force and not get blasted.

That's even though we all know he'd have to fail somewhere or another in order to bring about our protagonist's victory. Go read Ep23 thread or just grab a FLSnow fansub off the torrent. You'd notice no one blames Scarlietti. That's because he prepared and his decision was logical given the theoretical correlation of forces.
Since you do seem rather tactically minded then you should also realised that he forced Hayate to split her forces.

Unlike Scags she/RF6 has responsibilities so she can't just ignore a group attacking a target. She has limited resources and even worse these are most probably known to her enemy.

Now did she ineffectivly split her forces? Well imho she didn't, just currently it seems her forces have been out manoeuvred.

RF6 currently has available:

Hayate
Nanoha
Vita
Fate
Signum
Rein
The forwards
The grunts

Hayate at the time had to assign them to:

A. Doomsday weapon from hell.
B. They had to deal with an unknown amount of combat cyborgs charging towards the city.
C. A knight charging towards the GHQ.
D. Dealing with Scags in hope it will take out the combat cyborgs, which in turn will stop the ship.
E. God knows how many gadgets

She assigns

A. Herself, Nanoha and Vita
B. The forwards
C. Signum and Rein (they now know he can unison)
D. Fate
E. Kinda in everyone's faces atm

I can't see how else you can split the team without seriously compromising the defence or completion of any of these goals.

Now she can't just ignore one of these points, and come back to it later. You can't treat these enemies like conventional soldiers. They pack serious fire power, it would be like saying oh lets ignore them cruise missiles flying towards the city whilst I try to take out that heavily armed air craft carrier.

She can't let the grunts try to hold out, she already knows how easily the tore her forces a new one last time. Actually I am quite please for once a show hasn't had filled out lots of scenes of grunt death and the commander actually tries to give them as much high end support as possible.

The forwards being split by the mini rider was due to their lack of experience/concern for the helicopter pilot. Yes they got played.

So my question is how else could she have done it? Sacrificed the grunts? Sacrificed the city? Sacrificed the ground force hq?
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Old 2007-09-08, 12:59   Link #428
arkhangelsk
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Do a Thread Search and see my previous answers to this dilemma. My Concept of Operations was basically to solve this with speed. If you have to take all targets, your best chance is to grab everyone as a single unit and smash through each objective in turn, thus ensuring each problem gets dealt with under minimal time loss. The attack sequence does the easy, known problems first and leaves the toughest, least known problems to be solved at the end by the whole team, still almost fresh because I preserved their combat power by keeping them in one unit.

More specifically, I chose B->C->D->A&E. This is helped because even if you don't count teleportation (which I was using as a major part of my tactics), everything was in the same general direction of advance - not quite in a line, but still in the same general arc.

Further, an inability to prioritize is a bad idea. When we are talking about a Planetary-Threat, all the other threats basically fade into nothingness. Your tactics are like saying that there is a nuclear-armed B-2 and some conventionally armed cruise missiles, and you try to split your forces evenly among them. Of course you don't. You go all out to trying to hunt down and kill the B-2 because the difference in the amount of damage they can do is so vast.
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Old 2007-09-08, 15:06   Link #429
Mirificus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
Errrr you just missed my point

Scags has compromised their comms and he has inside help from before RF6 were even conceived. That's my point. His superior intelligence just means he can use these advantages a lot better.

*Edit*

Many apologies I just re-read your message, and I whilst you may see the point, the earlier posts were not taking this into account.

Especially since Hayate has certain responsibilities, she can't just ignore certain things the same way that scags can
I can't really tell which of my posts you've been reading. I'm pretty sure I assumed that Jail had superior HUMINT and SIGINT for my earlier posts and that RF6 had very limited intelligence gathering. In any case, it has been confirmed by later episodes. I tried to base my posts on the intelligence and resources that RF6 actually had to work with.

I know I did post this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
How is massing your forces together more complicated then ensuring each separate force has enough combat power to win at each objective before you even send them out?

Each force will also be kept in combat for longer in relatively static situations greatly diminishing their combat power. Surprise and initiative are forfeit. There's no depth in the deployment and no reserves.

...

Overwhelming combat power offers RF6 its best chance to avoid being bogged down. If it can't use speed, mobility, surprise and deception to become strong enough at the decisive point, then the battle has already been lost even before it has begun.
With limited intelligence, fine-tuning your deployments so that three separate forces each have enough combat power to win at each objective is next to impossible.

RF6's main chance to gain surprise and regain the initiative was to concentrate their forces at an unexpected point using their superior speed and mobility. Jail's superior intelligence gathering gives him more time to react but by no means does it allow him to automatically redeploy his forces. Jail's left his forces in relatively static positions and given them the orders to return to the Cradle when they've "finished having fun." A lot of his forces either can't be redeployed or will be difficult to redeploy and he has no credible reserves. He's no longer in a very good position to take advantage of the superior intelligence. RF6 had a clear chance to take the initiative back and eliminate Jail's forces in detail before his other forces could redeploy to support them by using a sound plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
Since you do seem rather tactically minded then you should also realised that he forced Hayate to split her forces.

Unlike Scags she/RF6 has responsibilities so she can't just ignore a group attacking a target. She has limited resources and even worse these are most probably known to her enemy.
When you have limited forces, you need to limit your objectives accordingly. Sending forces on a secondary mission is not worth the risk of losing one of the decisive battles.

You can never have enough forces at the decisive point.

Quote:
Now did she ineffectivly split her forces? Well imho she didn't, just currently it seems her forces have been out manoeuvred.
I also posted this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Any decent set of military doctrine accepts and embraces that uncertainty will always be present on the battlefield.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truppenfuehrung (Troop Command), 1933
3. Combat situations are of an unlimited variety. They change frequently and suddenly and can seldom be assessed in advance. Incalculable elements often have a decisive influence. One's own will is pitted against the independent will of the enemy. Friction and errors are daily occurrences.
It is rarely possible to obtain exact information on the enemy situation. Better a faulty plan or decision permeated with boldness, daring, and decisiveness, than a perfect plan unmeshed with uncertainty. It is through attack that the unclarified situation can best be clarified, and a basis reached, upon which the commander can best estimate their future action.

The plan used in episode 21, and I use that word loosely, is neither, bold, daring nor decisive. It plays very nicely with Jail's force dispositions and isn't strong enough at any point. Once they did attack and get a better idea of the enemy situation, they did nothing to adapt to the changing situation and have no plans to do so. They've left themselves with no reserves.
By splitting her forces evenly, she's ensured that her forces do the least possible damage to the enemy and that they do the most they can to hers.

Quote:
Hayate at the time had to assign them to:

A. Doomsday weapon from hell.
The Cradle is clearly a very important objective but one to which they haven't devoted adequate combat power. That's why they're progressing so slowly and it only gets worse.

Quote:
B. They had to deal with an unknown amount of combat cyborgs charging towards the city.
They could see that at least five combat cyborgs were heading there through their sensors. However, they need to actually finish moving through the city and reach the Ground Force HQ before they pose a real threat. As it stands, all they can destroy are empty buildings. With their relatively slow movement rate this force which is nearly half of the combat cyborgs won't be able to influence any of the battles for a great deal of time as long as RF6 chooses to avoid deploying any substantive forces in that area.

Quote:
C. A knight charging towards the GHQ.
Once again, not enough combat power.
Spoiler for Episode 22:

Quote:
D. Dealing with Scags in hope it will take out the combat cyborgs, which in turn will stop the ship.
With the way the other Aces dropped off Fate enroute to the Cradle, that means that Jail's lab is more or less on the way to the Cradle. It wouldn't have been difficult to use all three Aces here to ensure overmatch over the forces in Jail's lab. The greater the disparity in combat power, the faster you'll win. Superior combat power allows for greater force and mobility. The faster you deal with each threat, the more combat power you'll have to redeploy to face the threats. The bulk of their combat power already happens to be concentrated in their most mobile elements.

If you're going to devote more than a third of your combat power, then make sure you send enough to win. They don't make progress here.
Spoiler for Episode 22:
Are you beginning to see pattern?

Quote:
E. God knows how many gadgets
The number of drones is unknown. On the other hand, if the numbers are named consecutively (which RF6 doesn't know to be true), then six are unaccounted for. They're likely to be defending the Cradle and Jail's lab.

Quote:
I can't see how else you can split the team without seriously compromising the defence or completion of any of these goals.

Now she can't just ignore one of these points, and come back to it later. You can't treat these enemies like conventional soldiers. They pack serious fire power, it would be like saying oh lets ignore them cruise missiles flying towards the city whilst I try to take out that heavily armed air craft carrier.
Not all of those need immediate or equal attention. The damage that the Cradle can do probably far outweighs any damage the drones and numbers can do to the city. The same principles of concentration and economy of force apply to Jail's forces. The more drones and numbers busy destroying buildings, the less forces Jail has to defend his lab and the Cradle. With the inadequacy those "points" have been dealt with, some of them may just as well have been ignored. It wouldn't change substantially change the results and would save resources.

The point of launching an attack on an enemy is in order to defeat them. The attacker has the initiative. Launching an attack that is not going to defeat the enemy or help the main force defeat the enemy is worse than not attacking at all. Once you use up those units, they're not going to come back.

Quote:
She can't let the grunts try to hold out, she already knows how easily the tore her forces a new one last time. Actually I am quite please for once a show hasn't had filled out lots of scenes of grunt death and the commander actually tries to give them as much high end support as possible.
Just wait an episode and you won't be so happy.

Quote:
So my question is how else could she have done it? Sacrificed the grunts? Sacrificed the city? Sacrificed the ground force hq?
Arkhangelsk and I both suggested alternate plans earlier in the thread. In light of some of the information that RF6 knew like half of the numbers being in an abandoned city and Jail's lab being enroute to the Cradle, better plans can be formulated.

You're right about one thing. It isn't your enemy doesn't who chooses the decisive point for your attack. It's you.
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Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-09-08 at 16:48.
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Old 2007-09-08, 17:35   Link #430
Arrow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
Since you do seem rather tactically minded then you should also realised that he forced Hayate to split her forces.

Unlike Scags she/RF6 has responsibilities so she can't just ignore a group attacking a target. She has limited resources and even worse these are most probably known to her enemy.

Now did she ineffectivly split her forces? Well imho she didn't, just currently it seems her forces have been out manoeuvred.

RF6 currently has available:

Hayate
Nanoha
Vita
Fate
Signum
Rein
The forwards
The grunts

Hayate at the time had to assign them to:

A. Doomsday weapon from hell.
B. They had to deal with an unknown amount of combat cyborgs charging towards the city.
C. A knight charging towards the GHQ.
D. Dealing with Scags in hope it will take out the combat cyborgs, which in turn will stop the ship.
E. God knows how many gadgets

She assigns

A. Herself, Nanoha and Vita
B. The forwards
C. Signum and Rein (they now know he can unison)
D. Fate
E. Kinda in everyone's faces atm

I can't see how else you can split the team without seriously compromising the defence or completion of any of these goals.

Now she can't just ignore one of these points, and come back to it later. You can't treat these enemies like conventional soldiers. They pack serious fire power, it would be like saying oh lets ignore them cruise missiles flying towards the city whilst I try to take out that heavily armed air craft carrier.

She can't let the grunts try to hold out, she already knows how easily the tore her forces a new one last time. Actually I am quite please for once a show hasn't had filled out lots of scenes of grunt death and the commander actually tries to give them as much high end support as possible.

The forwards being split by the mini rider was due to their lack of experience/concern for the helicopter pilot. Yes they got played.

So my question is how else could she have done it? Sacrificed the grunts? Sacrificed the city? Sacrificed the ground force hq?
Very nice summary, GM. Makes things a lot easier now...

I'm surprised Hayate hasn't taken a giant can opener and opened a giant can of whoopass on everyone yet. I mean...her rank's the second-highest in the book!
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Old 2007-09-08, 21:05   Link #431
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
So my question is how else could she have done it? Sacrificed the grunts? Sacrificed the city? Sacrificed the ground force hq?
Sacrificing the city and hq might not have been such a bad idea. The combat cyborgs most likely aren't going to go door to door slaughtering civilians. As long as the TSA instructs everyone to stay in their homes until the situation is resolved, there should be few, if any, casualties. The hq can be evacuated, so there's really no reason to put more than a token effort into defending it other than symbolic.

If Hayate had used all available forces to attack the cradle and Jail, they would have a much better chance of success. Sure the cyborgs may take the city and hq, but with their leader and the cradle taken out, it's still game over for them. Not to mention there's a high chance of the forces attacking the city being recalled when it's obvious they're being ignored by the TSA and will be better utilized as reinforcements for the cradle. In the end there's no real need to fight for control of the city or hq.
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Old 2007-09-08, 22:07   Link #432
Proto
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Location: U. of Pittsburgh, Previously in Mexico City.
Age: 29
Quote:
If Hayate had used all available forces to attack the cradle and Jail, they would have a much better chance of success. Sure the cyborgs may take the city and hq, but with their leader and the cradle taken out, it's still game over for them. Not to mention there's a high chance of the forces attacking the city being recalled when it's obvious they're being ignored by the TSA and will be better utilized as reinforcements for the cradle. In the end there's no real need to fight for control of the city or hq.
Would you place on the scale the value of countless civilians life (that in the end you ARE supposed to protect) against something like "The numbers most probably will have something better to do than securing their position by making hostages and if we manage to succeed with the cradle/Scagglietti, the remaining numbers won't try to take revenge/make a point to those trying to get their beloved boss by killing off a few civilians? As it has been discussed earlier, the whole purpose of the Midchilda ground forces is the protection of Mid childa and its people. The loss of a single person is unacceptable. Nevertheless, it is also true that there are more pressing matter at hands Hence why they only sent a small yet trained squad to lead, organize and support the city defense, while the heavy weaponry went off to take the big bosses out.

Sacrificing one thing or another would result in a total contradiction of the TSAB raison de Ítre, since it's ultimate objective isn't to capture interdimensional criminals, but to protect people. Down to the last one. And Hayate knows that
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Old 2007-09-08, 22:16   Link #433
arkhangelsk
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This is yet another lack of prioritization. However unacceptable the loss of a single (or even a few hundred) Midchildran is, the loss of the whole planet is even more unacceptable. The difference between these two is by many orders of magnitude. Thus, a plan that even marginally increases the chance of handling the Planetary-level threat is superior to the plan that tries to protect everyone. And a plan that actually concentrates force will hardly have just a "marginal increase in probability of success".

Heck, if you feel like you have to deal with every problem, pool everyone together. That ensures the rapid handling of the problems and plenty of time for the difficult problems, which is conveniently placed on the far end of a line in the same general direction.

Further, I must say I don't understand about the supposed specific difficulties of anti-sentoukijin combat. I can understand them not having had the chance to fight in the "mountain airs" of AMF. But what's so special about sentoukijin combat methods. In that team is a shooter, a brawler, a swordwielder and a blaster - none of these are categories that are unknown between the Midchildran and Belkan combat methods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
They could see that at least five combat cyborgs were heading there through their sensors. However, they need to actually finish moving through the city and reach the Ground Force HQ before they pose a real threat. As it stands, all they can destroy are empty buildings. With their relatively slow movement rate this force which is nearly half of the combat cyborgs won't be able to influence any of the battles for a great deal of time as long as RF6 chooses to avoid deploying any substantive forces in that area.
To have a bit of fairness.
Spoiler for Ep23:
And to be fair, it is projected that without RF6 putting up a barricade, the Numbers-Drone battalion will smash into the Main Line of Resistance shortly after the Intercept Point in Ep21, smash a hole, and be able to reach the HQ less than the 3 hours needed for the Cradle to reach orbit.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2007-09-08 at 22:41. Reason: Extending the answer
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Old 2007-09-08, 22:48   Link #434
Proto
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Quote:
Thus, a plan that even marginally increases the chance of handling the Planetary-level threat is superior to the plan that tries to protect everyone. And a plan that actually concentrates force will hardly have just a "marginal increase in probability of success".
How is having the forwards going against a flying target they can't even reach protected by a higher AMF than they can handle, or going against the big boss that nevertheless they are not prepared to face any better than sending them somewhere where they might actually be able to make a difference? Heck, even if you measure human lifes by numbers and scales, avoiding the hostage factor is of utmost importance. You don't want having to deal and negotiate with the remaining numbers after all your effort bringinig down the Doc and the craddle when you left the city open to attack and occupation.

In my opinion if there is a plan that could be foreited, its the get Scagglieti one. That one is the only one where there isn't any critical at stake, and concentrating Fate and Shaha on the Craddle (or having Shaha doing harass attacks so that you keep Scagglieti in his place) might result into better and faster probabilities of everything ending ok.
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Old 2007-09-08, 22:59   Link #435
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtoMan View Post
How is having the forwards going against a flying target they can't even reach protected by a higher AMF than they can handle, or going against the big boss that nevertheless they are not prepared to face any better than sending them somewhere where they might actually be able to make a difference?
1) They won't know about those AMF fields until they went in. It may turn out to be a mistake to bring them along, but the effort should still have been tried. Those guys are quite adequate against drones, and thus it'd leave the Aces fresh for attacking Numbers.
2) It is not clear how AMF works, so it is not certain that the Forwards will be completely closed down rather than just find it a little more difficult (like Nanoha and Vita).

Quote:
Heck, even if you measure human lifes by numbers and scales,
When it comes to this, Utilitarianism on a Planetary Scale is the only way to go.

Quote:
avoiding the hostage factor is of utmost importance. You don't want having to deal and negotiate with the remaining numbers after all your effort bringinig down the Doc and the craddle when you left the city open to attack and occupation.
What occupation. Dealing with any Numbers that are left is a sweep up job. The most they can do is kill a few hostages before we kill the lot of them. That's nothing after saving the planet.

Further, my plans do include the option to rapidly blast the Numbers into oblivion. Just use fire from the Aces "on the march" before they actually plunge into the Main Line of Resistance.

Quote:
In my opinion if there is a plan that could be foreited, its the get Scagglieti one. That one is the only one where there isn't any critical at stake, and concentrating Fate and Shaha on the Craddle (or having Shaha doing harass attacks so that you keep Scagglieti in his place) might result into better and faster probabilities of everything ending ok.
Actually, the Scarlietti plan is only pursued in hopes that he might be convinced to stop the Cradle once he gets captured, or at least he can't execute new plans with his genius, along with the idea that with a Full Team, the Rate of Advance in his castle will be fast enough that there will still be plenty of time for the Cradle.

Go read our previous answers.
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Old 2007-09-09, 00:35   Link #436
Proto
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Quote:
Actually, the Scarlietti plan is only pursued in hopes that he might be convinced to stop the Cradle once he gets captured, or at least he can't execute new plans with his genius, along with the idea that with a Full Team, the Rate of Advance in his castle will be fast enough that there will still be plenty of time for the Cradle.
While I don't deny the value of such action, I don't see how losing previous time for something like that is any more valuable that actually trying to stop the death star from setting up or having your city from being assaulted. Overall considering the the latter 2 actually have a time limit, while for the former you just have to keep sure the doctor doesn't go everywhere else, or at least keep track of him.

Quote:
Go read our previous answers.
I have been doing so as depicted in my reply to episode 23, if you have read my subsequent/previous answers

Quote:
When it comes to this, Utilitarianism on a Planetary Scale is the only way to go.
Not so, at least within the context of the series itself, or at least by Hayate. In any case, even if you take the hostages and the citiy itself appart (which is something I don't really condone, but it seems we won't reach to an agreement over there) you sitll have the higher ups to protect and whatever lost logia/dangerous equipment they have stored at HQ to deal with. There is just not enough time our resources to evacuate and secure down to every military equipment. The city itself could become a bomb should it left be alone with the terro numbers. In any case, I keep by my point which you haven't addressed. The marginal difference that means bringing the forwards to play with the big guys doesn't compare to the real difference they can do by just playing as guides and as an elite unit to take care of what they needed to do. Not to mention that Ginga was there, an we need drama.
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Old 2007-09-09, 01:43   Link #437
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtoMan View Post
While I don't deny the value of such action, I don't see how losing previous time for something like that is any more valuable that actually trying to stop the death star from setting up or having your city from being assaulted. Overall considering the the latter 2 actually have a time limit, while for the former you just have to keep sure the doctor doesn't go everywhere else, or at least keep track of him.
Actually, half the value in grabbing Scarlietti is as one of the plans to stop the Cradle. The Cradle is very much top on my attack list. All other operations are undertaken in so far they contribute to covering possibilities for its neutralization or will cover other possibilities with only a very minimal time and power loss.

By the way, the Doc does have a time limit if we assume he wants to leave. Sending someone like Schach against him is death. Just 3 or 7 will make mincemeat out of her.

Quote:
Not so, at least within the context of the series itself, or at least by Hayate. In any case, even if you take the hostages and the citiy itself appart (which is something I don't really condone, but it seems we won't reach to an agreement over there)
Frankly, I find it morally reprehensible and hypocritical to pretend you are saving everyone while jeopardizing the whole planet.

Quote:
you sitll have the higher ups to protect
Screw them. I bet the Ground Forces will be a whole lot better in the long run with those turds dead anyway.

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and whatever lost logia/dangerous equipment they have stored at HQ to deal with. There is just not enough time our resources to evacuate and secure down to every military equipment.
Thanks to TSAB's reliance on mages, there probably isn't much equipment - did you see any of it come into play in Ep17. Of course not.

As for Lost Logia, those Numbers and Drones might be able to recover them, but without magical power or special equipment, they'd be hard pressed to break past the seals and reactivate them themselves, certainly not within a short period of time. They should have evacuated them last week anyway.

Further, eliminating such uncertainties is why I'm willing to allocate five precious minutes towards their destruction on the march.

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The city itself could become a bomb should it left be alone with the terro numbers.
At this point, even if the entire city is wiped out, it is a reasonable loss at this stage. The time for low level "Each person Counts" ended with the failure at Ep17. Now the best they can do is "Each Planet Counts".

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In any case, I keep by my point which you haven't addressed. The marginal difference that means bringing the forwards to play with the big guys doesn't compare to the real difference they can do by just playing as guides and as an elite unit to take care of what they needed to do. Not to mention that Ginga was there, an we need drama.
They are not to play with the Big Guys. They are to play with all the little guys guarding the two palaces along with our Big Guys, reducing the Power Consumption on the Biggies.

Besides, if you take the City Defense as such a priority, they should have allocated a one-round bombing strike with the Aces. That should deal the Numbers quite well and make the City Defense much easier. With only the Drones, the chances any of them have the intelligence to Activate Lost Logia falls to zero, and you keep the Forwards fresh.
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Old 2007-09-09, 11:01   Link #438
Proto
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Screw them. I bet the Ground Forces will be a whole lot better in the long run with those turds dead anyway.
I thought we were discussing from a practical and military POV. Are you aware that under those premises what you just said doesn't make any sense anyway? It means you will get court martialed after the event and probably get the commanders killed. Not to mention that we are talking about human lives (again: check the TSAB mission and raison de Ítre. What you are doing loses any sense if you lose sight of that and do whateer you want to do)

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By the way, the Doc does have a time limit if we assume he wants to leave. Sending someone like Schach against him is death. Just 3 or 7 will make mincemeat out of her.
I didn't mean sending someone attack-oriented who won't have any chance, but someone track-oriented like Accous who doesn't have to risk pretty much anything in order to just see which are Scagglietti movements in advance..

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Frankly, I find it morally reprehensible and hypocritical to pretend you are saving everyone while jeopardizing the whole planet.
Good. We are making profess Welcome to the adults world... ok j/k.
Well you just described a personal and relative standpoint. Now it would make good to review which are the commanders moral standpoint on this. Yup, it is not to let anyone else die, and to try to save everyone down to the lest person. Otherwise you will get emo and suicidal Hayate by the end. Not to mention that the forces *know* they don't really have to bring down the craddle, they just have to delay it enough time for the TSAB fleet to enter the game and they win.

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Thanks to TSAB's reliance on mages, there probably isn't much equipment - did you see any of it come into play in Ep17. Of course not.
Obviously they are not going to touch the lost logia even if they are under attack. They are just there to be stored, the series standpoint on this is not to touch them even iwth a 10-m pole if you can help it.

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Besides, if you take the City Defense as such a priority, they should have allocated a one-round bombing strike with the Aces. That should deal the Numbers quite well and make the City Defense much easier. With only the Drones, the chances any of them have the intelligence to Activate Lost Logia falls to zero, and you keep the Forwards fresh.
*that* is something I can agree it (yay, first thing we actually agree with, aren't you happy ), and something that might have actually worked.

In any case, I just noticed that we have more or less repeating ourselves for 4 or 5 postes now, so I doubt there is any value in us continuing the discussion since we come from irreconcileable moral standpoints so we have more or less reached the point where it is wiser to "agree to disagree"
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Old 2007-09-09, 12:41   Link #439
Mirificus
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Join Date: May 2007
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Originally Posted by ProtoMan View Post
Would you place on the scale the value of countless civilians life (that in the end you ARE supposed to protect) against something like "The numbers most probably will have something better to do than securing their position by making hostages and if we manage to succeed with the cradle/Scagglietti, the remaining numbers won't try to take revenge/make a point to those trying to get their beloved boss by killing off a few civilians? As it has been discussed earlier, the whole purpose of the Midchilda ground forces is the protection of Mid childa and its people. The loss of a single person is unacceptable. Nevertheless, it is also true that there are more pressing matter at hands Hence why they only sent a small yet trained squad to lead, organize and support the city defense, while the heavy weaponry went off to take the big bosses out.
If that's the principle they are following then they're still doing a terrible job. Where they have sent forces they haven't sent enough, so they greatly increase the risk of losing at each of the places they're defending. Look at what happened with Zest and the Ground Force HQ and Fate and Jail's lab. If protecting each civilian is important then you should realize that the Cradle itself and the drones pose the greatest risk to civilians. Unlike the other objectives, they're both directly above a major population center. The longer the drones and Cradle are there, the more civilians they kill either directly or through collateral damage.

If each civilian life is important, then why aren't more forces deployed around the Cradle?

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Sacrificing one thing or another would result in a total contradiction of the TSAB raison de Ítre, since it's ultimate objective isn't to capture interdimensional criminals, but to protect people. Down to the last one. And Hayate knows that
Did you read my last post? Nearly half of the numbers aren't in any position to do any damage. They're in an abandoned city and they're only moving towards the Ground Force HQ as fast as Ginga can skate. The buildings are empty. There are no civilians there to protect.
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Old 2007-09-09, 12:59   Link #440
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
If that's the principle they are following then they're still doing a terrible job. Where they have sent forces they haven't sent enough, so they greatly increase the risk of losing at each of the places they're defending. Look at what happened with Zest and the Ground Force HQ and Fate and Jail's lab. If protecting each civilian is important then you should realize that the Cradle itself and the drones pose the greatest risk to civilians. Unlike the other objectives, they're both directly above a major population center. The longer the drones and Cradle are there, the more civilians they kill either directly or through collateral damage.

If each civilian life is important, then why aren't more forces deployed around the Cradle?
Let's try a game anallogy, we'll use C&C 3.

I had built an Ion Cannon withs sufficient defenses to fend off minor assaults. My oponent decided that my Ion Cannon was the biggest threat to his base, as I could target and destroy about 60% of his base, rendering the rest neutrall, and threw everything he had against my Ion Cannon. Now, while he was doing that, I did not sit there and take the punishment. Oh no, I send a nice squad of tanks into his now relatively unprotected base, landing a few more troops for good meassure, and trashed it while he was focussing on my Ion Cannon.

My opponent did what you are suggesting now, throwing focuss towards the biggest visible threat. In the end, he lost. Had he send a smaller force, but left more to defend, he could have succeeded in both taking out my Ion Cannon and fending off my assault.

Now replace the Ion Cannon with the Cradle. It's the biggest visible threat, but does that mean we should let all other things be?
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