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View Poll Results: Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 11 25.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 18 40.91%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 10 22.73%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 9.09%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 2.27%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-09-09, 13:11   Link #441
Mirificus
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Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Let's try a game anallogy, we'll use C&C 3.

I had built an Ion Cannon withs sufficient defenses to fend off minor assaults. My oponent decided that my Ion Cannon was the biggest threat to his base, as I could target and destroy about 60% of his base, rendering the rest neutrall, and threw everything he had against my Ion Cannon. Now, while he was doing that, I did not sit there and take the punishment. Oh no, I send a nice squad of tanks into his now relatively unprotected base, and trashed it while he was focussing on my Ion Cannon.
The Ground Force HQ was just as good as unprotected.
Spoiler for Episode 22-23:

The numbers don't need to be dealt with immediately. They're not in range to do any damage.

Quote:
My opponent did what you are suggesting now, throwing focuss towards the biggest visible threat. In the end, he lost. Had he send a smaller force, but left more to defend, he could have succeeded in both taking out my Ion Cannon and fending off my assault.

Now replace the Ion Cannon with the Cradle. It's the biggest visible threat, but does that mean we should let all other things be?
Have you read any of my other posts? I don't think that ending all available forces to the Cradle immediately is a good plan. Economy of force goes hand in hand with concentration as one of the most basic tactical principles. Correctly assessing space and time to recognize and exploit favorable situations is another.

However if protecting every single individual civilian life is as important as Proto suggests, then sending all available forces to the Cradle is exactly what he should be advocating as practically all of the civilians that are in immediate danger are in the Midchilda Capital.
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Old 2007-09-09, 13:43   Link #442
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
The Ground Force HQ was just as good as unprotected.
Spoiler for Episode 22-23:
Spoiler for Concerning Zest:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
The numbers don't need to be dealt with immediately. They're not in range to do any damage.
Thoughts like that are what can cost a battle. Threats need to be halted as soon as they are visible, why give them the chance to get close?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Have you read any of my other posts? I don't think that ending all available forces to the Cradle immediately is a good plan.

However if protecting every single individual civilian life is as important as Proto suggests, then sending all available forces to the Cradle is exactly the thing to do as practically all of the civilians that are in immediate danger are in the Midchilda Capital.
My apolagies, I've read everything for the last week or so, but anythig before that might have gotten a tad hazy. However, from what I recall reading, you were also complaining about spreading forces equally. This point I would like to adress as well, because I don't agree.

If we categorize by threats, then forces are spread according to threat level. Not equally.

The Cradle is the most obvious threat, and has two out of three Aces assigned to it plus one if the Wolkenritter.

Scagliethi's lab is an unknown factor, and one of the Aces was dispatched to aid the comrades that were in trouble there (both of which aren't exactly wusses themselves).

The enemies going for HQ are at the moment the lowest priority threat, but still need to be dealt with. Signum guarded the skies, while the forwards dealt with the sentoukijin.

From a tactical point of view, I fail to see the errors.
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Old 2007-09-09, 14:10   Link #443
Mirificus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Spoiler for Concerning Zest:
The fact though is that it didn't work and it tied up Signum from helping with the other two objectives. If they anticipated that Signum couldn't stop him, then they shouldn't have sent her there. If the plan was to actually stop Zest, then they could have committed more resources to the defense.

Quote:
Thoughts like that are what can cost a battle. Threats need to be halted as soon as they are visible, why give them the chance to get close?
One can never have enough forces at the decisive point. No force should be detached from the main body unless is definite and urgent. The numbers are neither.

If you really want to deal with the numbers, then the Aces could have been dropped off instead of the forwards and beat them faster, the forwards would still be fresh and victory there would be all but guaranteed. The Aces are the greatest concentration of mobility and firepower in RF6. Why not take advantage of that?

Quote:
My apolagies, I've read everything for the last week or so, but anythig before that might have gotten a tad hazy. However, from what I recall reading, you were also complaining about spreading forces equally. This point I would like to adress as well, because I don't agree.

If we categorize by threats, then forces are spread according to threat level. Not equally.

The Cradle is the most obvious threat, and has two out of three Aces assigned to it plus one if the Wolkenritter.
Only a single mage is actually working to disable the Cradle. That's rather threadbare at best.

Quote:
Scagliethi's lab is an unknown factor, and one of the Aces was dispatched to aid the comrades that were in trouble there (both of which aren't exactly wusses themselves).
Again, that took a great deal of time because of the lack of overmatching strength and it has left Fate exhausted. Time is the last resource that RF6 can afford to lose.

Quote:
The enemies going for HQ are at the moment the lowest priority threat, but still need to be dealt with. Signum guarded the skies, while the forwards dealt with the sentoukijin.
Signum tried to guard the skies but she didn't accomplish anything.

Quote:
From a tactical point of view, I fail to see the errors.
I don't really understand. They've violated pretty much every single tactical principle: mass, maneuver, economy of force, security, surprise, unity of command and simplicity.

You honestly don't think having a third body inside the Cradle would have helped? Someone to watch Vita's back perhaps?

You don't think that trying to secure everywhere is a tactical error? Particularly when those areas are not even being secured adequately and tying up critical resources anyways?

You don't think a complete lack of credible, timely reserves is a tactical error?

You don't think that abandoning the Aces superior mobility when it could be used to achieve tactical surprise and concentration is a tactical error?

Just how badly does RF6 need to screw up for it to be considered to have committed a tactical error?
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Old 2007-09-09, 14:45   Link #444
Keroko
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You seem to be working with hindsight. Wonderfull thing, hindsight, but you can't work with hindsight when the crisis that needs it is now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
The fact though is that it didn't work and it tied up Signum from helping with the other two objectives. If they anticipated that Signum couldn't stop him, then they shouldn't have sent her there. If the plan was to actually stop Zest, then they could have committed more resources to the defense.
That is the point, they didn't anticipate that Signum would lose, hence why they send her. They anticipated that Signum could hold off Zest, that plan failed but how could you possibly know a plan will fail from the start?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
One can never have enough forces at the decisive point. No force should be detached from the main body unless is definite and urgent. The numbers are neither.
The numbers are not an urgent and definite threat? Hell yes they are! Remember what I just told you about the army of tanks that snuck into the base? At the moment they rolled out of the base, they would not be concidered an 'definite urgent' threat by your calculations, but they gave me victory.

Any enemy is a definite threat. Any enemy headed for your base is a definite urgent threat.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
If you really want to deal with the numbers, then the Aces could have been dropped off instead of the forwards and beat them faster, the forwards would still be fresh and victory there would be all but guaranteed. The Aces are the greatest concentration of mobility and firepower in RF6. Why not take advantage of that?
I dunno, maybe because A: victory was not guaranteed (I have no idea where you got that idea).

B: They don't have the time to play cat-and-mouse games. You can't simply say 'we'll send our powerfull force to play cat-and-mouse with the enemies heading for our base' why? because the enemy could just as easilly tie up the Aces for hours by simply playing that cat-and-mouse game. That is a glarring error staring right there.

Seems like you're the one making the tactical mistakes now.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Only a single mage is actually working to disable the Cradle. That's rather threadbare at best.
Twenty-two, if you count the special assault squad that went in. And Nanoha is also working on the Cradle, Vivio is key to the Cradle as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Again, that took a great deal of time because of the lack of overmatching strength and it has left Fate exhausted. Time is the last resource that RF6 can afford to lose.
Yes, lets just leave the enemy lab alone, it might just contain the key to stopping the Cradle, or perhaps even a weapon far worse then the Cradle. It's not as if they're going to evacuate all convenient material while we deal with the Cradle.

Sarcasm aside, the enemy base was found then and had to be dealt with there and then. You can't just leave the enemy base alone just because there is another threat flying around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Signum tried to guard the skies but she didn't accomplish anything.
I fail to see how this is a tactical error. Even a perfect plan can fail if the dice rolls wrong.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Let me just get this straight.

You honestly don't think having a third body inside the Cradle would have helped? Someone to watch Vita's back perhaps?
Of course it wouldn't hurt. But sending Hayate in is like asking the guy with the panzerfaust to be a bodyguard.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
You don't think that trying to secure everywhere is a tactical error? Particularly when those areas are not even being secured adequately and tying up critical resources anyways?
Trying to secure everywhere is never a tactical error. And so far the forwards have been pretty effective in holding back the numbers/Lutecia. Hell, Tiana even defeated her batch.

Signum lost, yes, but like I said, even the most perfect of plans can fail if the dice rolls wrong. The plan was that Signum stops Zest, had it been succesfull then that would have solved yet another problem. Unfortunately, there was still Due, but she was a factor the TSAB neother knew about nor could take into the equotation.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
You don't think a complete lack of credible, timely reserves is a tactical error?
Shamal, Zafira and recently Vice were pretty timely reserves to me.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
You don't think that abandoning the Aces superior mobility when it could be used to achieve tactical surprise and concentration is a tactical error?
How? By playing cat-and-mouse with the numbers? That is only time consuming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Just how badly does RF6 need to screw up for it to be considered to have committed a tactical error?
When they make tactical errors, such as the fiasco during Jail's raid on the HQ, I will aknowledge them. However, during these incidents there were little to no tactical errors to speak off.

In fact, there were several tactical errors on your side of the planning. Most of all that you plan with hindsight. The TSAB didn't know Signum would lose to Zest, they didn't know where the reactor and throne were located, they didn't know Due even existed, much less in the middle of their base, they didn't know a lot of things, and you can't plan for something you don't know.
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Old 2007-09-09, 15:44   Link #445
Mirificus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
That is the point, they didn't anticipate that Signum would lose, hence why they send her. They anticipated that Signum could hold off Zest, that plan failed but how could you possibly know a plan will fail from the start?
They know that Vita was utterly defeated. Why assume that someone slightly stronger would do the job? You don't need hindsight to realize that if you want a decent chance of stopping Zest, then you shouldn't be sending someone roughly equal in power to him. You should be sending enough to overwhelm him if stopping him is important enough to you.

Quote:
The numbers are not an urgent and definite threat? Hell yes they are! Remember what I just told you about the army of tanks that snuck into the base? At the moment they rolled out of the base, they would not be concidered an 'definite urgent' threat by your calculations, but they gave me victory.
They aren't in any base. They're in an abandoned city full of empty buildings.

Quote:
Any enemy is a definite threat. Any enemy headed for your base is a definite urgent threat.
What if they're 30 minutes away. An hour? Five hours? A day? A week? A month? Not all threats are equally urgent.

Quote:
I dunno, maybe because A: victory was not guaranteed (I have no idea where you got that idea).
If the forwards can win, then three Aces can certainly win faster. It is the difference between a small advantage and complete overmatch.

Quote:
B: They don't have the time to play cat-and-mouse games. You can't simply say 'we'll send our powerfull force to play cat-and-mouse with the enemies heading for our base' why? because the enemy could just as easilly tie up the Aces for hours by simply playing that cat-and-mouse game. That is a glarring error staring right there.

Seems like you're the one making the tactical mistakes now.
Why would you assume that the Aces would inflexibly cling to a course of action when it is no longer appropriate? That in itself is a gross tactical error.

If the numbers dissipate their forces before contact is made to play cat and mouse games then the Aces can simply keep heading towards Jail's lab and the Cradle and they'll have delayed the numbers from getting to the Ground Force HQ as it'll take time for the numbers to reassemble.

Quote:
Twenty-two, if you count the special assault squad that went in. And Nanoha is also working on the Cradle, Vivio is key to the Cradle as well.
I see you're counting TSAB redshirts that haven't even linked up with Nanoha or Vita yet.

Hindsight again. They know that Vivio is the key to the Cradle. They don't know if rescuing her will disable the ship. On the other hand, they know where they can disable the engines but of their capable mages, they've sent only Vita out of all of RF6.

Quote:
Yes, lets just leave the enemy lab alone, it might just contain the key to stopping the Cradle, or perhaps even a weapon far worse then the Cradle. It's not as if they're going to evacuate all convenient material while we deal with the Cradle.
The lab has been left alone for years you realize.

Quote:
Sarcasm aside, the enemy base was found then and had to be dealt with there and then. You can't just leave the enemy base alone just because there is another threat flying around.
You seem to be under the impression that all of the threats were dealt with immediately. Fate didn't reach the lab immediately. She was in transit for quite a while. Hayate, Nanoha and Vita were in transit for even longer before they reached the Cradle.

Quote:
I fail to see how this is a tactical error. Even a perfect plan can fail if the dice rolls wrong.
Why would you want to increase the number of possible rolls that will result in failure?

Quote:
Of course it wouldn't hurt. But sending Hayate in is like asking the guy with the panzerfaust to be a bodyguard.
Panzerfausts are pretty good at blowing holes in walls. She could have been trying to blow holes closer to the engine room and throne room so assault teams could insert closer to their targets or try disabling the engines from the rear.

Quote:
And so far the forwards have been pretty effective in holding back the numbers/Lutecia. Hell, Tiana even defeated her batch.
Hindsight, right?

Quote:
Shamal, Zafira and recently Vice were pretty timely reserves to me.
You keep on harping on hindsight. Vice and Zafira were not known to be available. They didn't even know that they would be available. A reserve isn't a reserve if its commander is unaware of its existence.

Quote:
How? By playing cat-and-mouse with the numbers? That is only time consuming.
Cat and mouse? They were all out in the open.

Quote:
In fact, there were several tactical errors on your side of the planning. Most of all that you plan with hindsight. The TSAB didn't know Signum would lose to Zest...
At most, they should expect even odds of Signum defeating Zest. Really all they need to know is that Signum has less of a chance of winning than Signum + RF6 mage. If it is important enough to stop Zest, then make sure you have a reasonable chance of actually defeating him. To do otherwise is to waste critical forces that are needed at the decisive point.

Quote:
...they didn't know where the reactor and throne were located...
They should have been sending additional forces regardless of where the reactor and throne were located.

Quote:
they didn't know Due even existed, much less in the middle of their base, they didn't know a lot of things, and you can't plan for something you don't know.
I never said anything about Due. That Zest would try to stop Due is where the actual hindsight is as far as RF6 is concerned.

You haven't answered how abandoning maneuver, mass, economy of force, simplicity, security and surprise is not a gross planning failure.

Before you say it, splitting up your forces and ensuring that each force has enough combat power to win, is far more complex than concentrating your forces, even with perfect intelligence.

Quote:
Trying to secure everywhere is never a tactical error.
I think this remark alone speaks for itself.
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Old 2007-09-09, 16:28   Link #446
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
They know that Vita was utterly defeated. Why assume that someone slightly stronger would do the job? You don't need hindsight to realize that if you want a decent chance of stopping Zest, then you shouldn't be sending someone roughly equal in power to him. You should be sending enough to overwhelm him if stopping him is important enough to you.
Vita is not someone made for delicate close combat. Vita's aproach is to straightforward smash things. When that doesn't work, she gets defeated. It was more a tactical decicion to send Signum, as she is far more versatile in close combat. As Chrono said, 'there is more in Magic then simple rankings'. Signum held her own against Zest, and in fact was never defeated. Zest ran, Signum was fully capable of continuing the fight.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
They aren't in any base. They're in an abandoned city full of empty buildings.
Neither where my tanks when they rolled out of my base, but they reached the enemies camp because he neglected his home defenses.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
What if they're 30 minutes away. An hour? Five hours? A day? A week? A month? Not all threats are equally urgent.
Perhaps not, but when you aproach the day limit, it becomes urgent. Remember, even if they were to send aditional forces to the Cradle, they would still have to travel back. The numbers would have long since reached their goal by then.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
If the forwards can win, then three Aces can certainly win faster. It is the difference between a small advantage and complete overmatch.
Ah, but they didn't know that, now did they?

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Why would you assume that the Aces would inflexibly cling to a course of action when it is no longer appropriate? That in itself is a gross tactical error.
Cat-and-mouse games are not limited to a single tactic. The main goal is to keep the enemy occupied. This can be done through various courses of actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
If the numbers dissipate their forces before contact is made to play cat and mouse games then the Aces can simply keep heading towards Jail's lab and the Cradle and they'll have delayed the numbers from getting to the Ground Force HQ as it'll take time for the numbers to reassemble.
And still this would be a tactical error for the TSAB, remember, the numbers do not have a time limit. They can play cat-and-mouse for as long as they like. If the Aces even make the effort to disperce them, it's already a partial victory on their part.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
I see you're counting TSAB redshirts that haven't even linked up with Nanoha or Vita yet.
Well, yes. Just to show that they did send aditional mages.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Hindsight again. They know that Vivio is the key to the Cradle. They don't know if rescuing her will disable the ship. On the other hand, they know where they can disable the engines but of their capable mages, they've sent only Vita out of all of RF6.
Disabling the engines does not render the ship useless. It still has many weapons, which is not a good thing to have hovering above a now highly populated area.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
The lab has been left alone for years you realize.
When Jail was not intent on blowing up the world, yes.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
You seem to be under the impression that all of the threats were dealt with immediately. Fate didn't reach the lab immediately. She was in transit for quite a while. Hayate, Nanoha and Vita were in transit for even longer before they reached the Cradle.
Oh, I'm not. I'm merely reffering to the actions they took in the planning, since that is what we are talking about. During the planning it was decided to deal with the situations, after that they were put into action. It is the moment of planning that we need to look at.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Why would you want to increase the number of possible rolls that will result in failure?
Would you rather not roll at all and get certain failure?

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Panzerfausts are pretty good at blowing holes in walls. She could have been trying to blow holes closer to the engine room and throne room so assault teams could insert closer to their targets or try disabling the engines from the rear.
Panzerfausts are also useless in close-combat areas.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Hindsight, right?

You keep on harping on hindsight. Vice and Zafira were not known to be available. They didn't even know that they would be available. A reserve isn't a reserve if its commander is unaware of its existence.
My mistake, rather easy to get caught in it.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Cat and mouse? They were all out in the open.
Which screams 'come attack me' frankly, I'd laugh at the idiot who would fall for such an obvious trap.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
At most, they should expect even odds of Signum defeating Zest. Really all they need to know is that Signum has less of a chance of winning than Signum + RF6 mage. If it is important enough to stop Zest, then make sure you have a reasonable chance of actually defeating him. To do otherwise is to waste critical forces that are needed at the decisive point.
They didn't even know if Zest would show up, but to simply ignore him would be suicidal. Thus they placed Signum on guard in the event he would show up. Waste of critical forces? Perhaps, but if she was needed (which she was) she would not be wasted. Nothing is certain in battles. Forces placed in positions that seemed mandatory may have been wasted just minutes after making contact. Signum fought well, she hardly lost the battle. Zest ran for it.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
They should have been sending additional forces regardless of where the reactor and throne were located.
Perhaps we will see them in an episode or two. It was said that reinforcements were on their way after all.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
I never said anything about Due. That Zest would try to stop Due is where the actual hindsight is as far as RF6 is concerned.
*shrug* okay, solves that then.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
You haven't answered how abandoning maneuver, mass, economy of force, simplicity, security and surprise is not a gross planning failure.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Since when did they abandon any of those? Hell, they never even had economy of force, much less surprise.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Before you say it, splitting up your forces and ensuring that each force has enough combat power to win, is far more complex than concentrating your forces, even with perfect intelligence.
Oh, I know that. Trust me. Many are the times when I make a mistake in splitting my forces and end up losing a game. The TSAB has done so quite well. The only thing I'm iffy about is the lack of TSAB grunts at Jail's base. That's where I spot a tactical error, thugh with the ground forces lack of AMF training, that becomes at least partially understandable.

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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
I think this remark alone speaks for itself.
Me and my friends have a nack for spotting security holes in areas. If you give us a spot where you neglect security, you can count on it that we will be exploiting that area to our full abillities. So no, trying to be secure in all areas is never a tactical mistake.
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Old 2007-09-09, 20:34   Link #447
arkhangelsk
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One night, and so much to catch up on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Let's try a game anallogy, we'll use C&C 3.

I had built an Ion Cannon withs sufficient defenses to fend off minor assaults. My oponent decided that my Ion Cannon was the biggest threat to his base, as I could target and destroy about 60% of his base, rendering the rest neutrall, and threw everything he had against my Ion Cannon. Now, while he was doing that, I did not sit there and take the punishment. Oh no, I send a nice squad of tanks into his now relatively unprotected base, landing a few more troops for good meassure, and trashed it while he was focussing on my Ion Cannon.

My opponent did what you are suggesting now, throwing focuss towards the biggest visible threat. In the end, he lost. Had he send a smaller force, but left more to defend, he could have succeeded in both taking out my Ion Cannon and fending off my assault.

Now replace the Ion Cannon with the Cradle. It's the biggest visible threat, but does that mean we should let all other things be?
Your analogy is faulty:
1) The operational goal is entirely different. In C&C, the only operational objective is to keep the base.
2) I presume that while he lost, at least he took out your Ion Cannon. Have you considered that maybe if he tried to "play it safer" he might have lost the base and failed to knock out your ion cannon. How this is a superior ending is beyond me.

To refine your analogy. Your opponent has say 10 bases instead of one. The Ion Cannon can threaten all his bases simultaneously, while the remainder of your forces can threaten only one base. Assume that you lose in C&C if you lose that Ion Cannon, while he loses only if he loses all ten bases. Does that affect your calculation?
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Old 2007-09-09, 20:40   Link #448
Proto
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The difference is that that one single, central enemy base we are talking about is the TSAB capital. Political center of the TSAB, losing the Midchilda capital (as with any nation which loses its political centre) would lead to great political and economical turmoil, which might even result into the disintegration of the TSAB into a pre-3-admirals like state. As you said, you have to look things into the greater scale, not just the immediate treat. We are not talking about any minor world. We are talking about th3 capital world after all.

Does it hurts really that much to send 3 B 1 C ranked mage to do what they were trained to do? Base infiltration require different tactics than city defense after all. Yeah, it would be even better for the Aces to help with a napalm barrage and then just deploy the forwards to finish the job though.
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Old 2007-09-09, 21:54   Link #449
Mirificus
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I would suggest moving our discussion regarding military planning to the Military, Authority & Decisions In MSLN series. Hopefully people will have other things to discuss about episode 21 now that the subs are out.

Arkhangelsk has posted a reply to your last post there, Keroko. He's done a pretty good job of covering what I would have said, although I have a slightly different bent on military doctrine. Feel free to join us there grey moon
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Old 2007-09-09, 22:00   Link #450
grey_moon
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@Mirificus - Hee hee will do . I believe the lack of resources should be blamed on the Ground Force general (can't remember his name), not on RF6. I read it as a part of the reason why RF6 was created by the TSA and the Church was to counter the political actions of the general.

@Keroko - That is one of my favourite tactics in C&C Generals, build a perceived threat (which is ofc really is a threat), then smack them from several sides as they start scampering to neutralise it. I'm a great believer in split force tactics, I love fighting from multiple sides and I normally attack with several battalions, that way when one takes damage, the reserves can take over whilst they recover or more importantly if I deem necessary I can send the whole lot in to finish them.

I have to say I totally agree with Keroko's point about hindsight. For instance:

At what point was the danger of the Cradle actually known and specifically that it needs to reach orbit?

At what point did they realise that inside all the strategic areas had AMF fields which hindered all their recently unlocked captains?

At what point did they know that the forwards instead of fighting 3 combat cyborgs would be fighting 5 and a summoner with her kick arse melee familiar?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but in terms of tactics, it is great to say what RF6 (aka Hayate) should have done, but in the end there was just too much stacked against her.

I won't go into the Zest rnd 2 in this thread, but I'll take that one to the epi 22 one
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Old 2007-09-09, 22:26   Link #451
arkhangelsk
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Greymoon, your reply.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=104
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Old 2007-09-09, 23:17   Link #452
grey_moon
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Doh! I just went and spoilt myself (a little ), not too sure which epi that refers to, but could you highlight which one it is please, as I'm only up to epi 22 atm.
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Old 2007-09-09, 23:20   Link #453
arkhangelsk
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Spoiler for Ep24:
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Old 2007-09-09, 23:22   Link #454
grey_moon
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
@arkhangelsk - I'll have to check that out in 2 episodes time *sniffle*.

yesy are doing an amazing job with the speed of their releases. Thank you yesy
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Old 2007-09-14, 11:20   Link #455
Eisdrache
Part-time misanthrope
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Actually there is a little translation error in the fansubs, dont know if that already has been mentioned already:
At 15:11 Vita and Eisen launch their attack translated as Swallow flier, german "Schwalbe fliegen." However Eisen says "Komet fliegen", what would be translated as Comet flier.

I doesnt bother me much since its basically the same attack, just with one large ball insted of 8 small ones.
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Old 2007-09-14, 16:23   Link #456
X207
Gamyūsa
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Montreal
wat aboout raging heart ie se1 and then se2-3 it became raising heart; well atleast in the subbed versions.
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