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Old 2007-09-09, 14:38   Link #1
Garylisk
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SubCompare Wiki Alpha

I've set up a little something that will hopefully prove useful eventually. Here's a link, which will speak louder than the message I'll type here: http://www.fotsubs.net/wiki

Basically, it's a Wiki for fansubbers (and viewers) to share screenshots and thoughts on titles that are being subbed by multiple groups, or have been subbec by multiple groups. The examples I set up there show the basic setup as I initially imagined it (but it's in alpha, so things will change, and contribution is encouraged highly.) - showing screen captures, as well as notations on how the subs showed up on different types of monitors and televisions.

I'm a wiki newbie, but I thought the best way to learn would be to throw myself into it and make something like this, so all comments are welcome. Just please, take a look at it before you make any comments.

Thanks, and I hope this seems useful.
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Last edited by Garylisk; 2007-09-16 at 17:54.
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Old 2007-09-10, 13:36   Link #2
Sylf
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A few suggestions from me:

- Enable file uploads by the users, possibly limiting only to jpg and png types. (Unless it is your intention for everyone to be using photobucket etc)
- Enable clean URL as detailed here
- Enable UTF-8
- Set up a page or two first, so people can see how you want to drive the site
- Provide a template where people can copy codes from.

If you have questions on pmwiki, I can help.
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Old 2007-09-10, 18:10   Link #3
Garylisk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylf View Post
A few suggestions from me:

- Enable file uploads by the users, possibly limiting only to jpg and png types. (Unless it is your intention for everyone to be using photobucket etc)
- Enable clean URL as detailed here
- Enable UTF-8
- Set up a page or two first, so people can see how you want to drive the site
- Provide a template where people can copy codes from.

If you have questions on pmwiki, I can help.
Awesome suggestions! Thanks!

Also, users can upload files, as detailed in the Help section. And there are pages set up, click Fansub Groups or Titles on the left. I am thinking those should be on the main part of the front page as well, though. THat would be a lot more intuitive.
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Old 2007-09-10, 22:56   Link #4
darksider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garylisk View Post
I've set up a little something that will hopefully prove useful eventually. Here's a link, which will speak louder than the message I'll type here: http://subcompare.fotsubs.net
Looks like not a bad idea at the moment.

But honestly I don't really like those screenshot things, because you can't really judge what is wrong and what is right without knowing the lines in the original language. Also, It'd take too long to load a page, if you flooded it with so many large screencaps. There should be some limitation, and preferably some place to discuss anything related to fansubs.
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Old 2007-09-11, 00:18   Link #5
Sylf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garylisk View Post
Also, users can upload files, as detailed in the Help section. And there are pages set up, click Fansub Groups or Titles on the left. I am thinking those should be on the main part of the front page as well, though. THat would be a lot more intuitive.
By default, file uploads are not permitted to general public on pmwiki -- when you try, it asks for a password. There are settings you can tweak in config files that opens up the file upload to everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darksider View Post
But honestly I don't really like those screenshot things, because you can't really judge what is wrong and what is right without knowing the lines in the original language. Also, It'd take too long to load a page, if you flooded it with so many large screencaps. There should be some limitation, and preferably some place to discuss anything related to fansubs.
That's the beauty of wiki -- you're not limited to just screen shots. Anyone who's posting anything are free to make translation comments etc. And once screen shots are taken, anyone can optimize those image files to shrink the image files so each pages won't take forever to load. You can only do so much, but collectively, you should be able to make the page more accessible than something that's done single-handedly.
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Old 2007-09-11, 04:52   Link #6
boggart
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What I see to be difficult in this project is to coordinate the screenshots to be of the same frame in multiple subs. When you have multiple uploaders it makes it even harder to manage this.
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Old 2007-09-11, 05:38   Link #7
Garylisk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darksider View Post
Looks like not a bad idea at the moment.

But honestly I don't really like those screenshot things, because you can't really judge what is wrong and what is right without knowing the lines in the original language. Also, It'd take too long to load a page, if you flooded it with so many large screencaps. There should be some limitation, and preferably some place to discuss anything related to fansubs.
Ah, but this page is not supposed to be rating the accuracy of translation. I am sure it will come up, but the main focus should be the subtitles and their style and readability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylf View Post
By default, file uploads are not permitted to general public on pmwiki -- when you try, it asks for a password. There are settings you can tweak in config files that opens up the file upload to everyone.
The password is alpha. It says so in the help section not once, but twice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boggart View Post
What I see to be difficult in this project is to coordinate the screenshots to be of the same frame in multiple subs. When you have multiple uploaders it makes it even harder to manage this.
There's no real need to make them from the same frame, really. It would be very hard to coordinate, plus it would limit submitters showing what they want (i.e. the colors of subs for certain characters, etc...) - It's best if they aren't all the same frames, in fact. You will see a wader array that way.

And now I'm late for work. *runs out door*
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Old 2007-09-11, 06:04   Link #8
boggart
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The purpose to compare subs is to see what the quality difference is between them. Thus it is only logical that if you want to compare two things, you want to keep as much the same as possible between the two (or more) different subs. What's the point of comparing two subs of the same show if you get one sub's screenshot showing a high action scene compared to the other sub's backdrop scene? Encoding differences (such as filters, colour adjustments, contrast, blockiness etc) would be taken into account if the screens are of the same scene.

The typesets used in the different subs is a legitimate reason for comparing as well, however, this can be worked into the same frames taken from each sub.
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Old 2007-09-11, 12:14   Link #9
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I can see this wiki becoming yet another flame-war ridden place....
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Old 2007-09-11, 12:48   Link #10
Genjo
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interesting i believe this would help out the viewer's on what they are picking so they can compare which sub's fit to there liking i see there's a future for SubCompare Wiki Alpha.
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Old 2007-09-11, 14:43   Link #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garylisk View Post
There's no real need to make them from the same frame, really.
BZZZT! Worng.
Some fun with REAL PICTURES from REAL FANSUBS:
1
2
Compare the above two shots. 1 is pretty obviously blurrier than 2 (compare the lines), and 1 also seems rather more blueish. 2 is obviously the better encode! Or...?

Spoiler: They are actually both from the EXACT SAME ENCODE. The shots are just two frames apart, and still they're so different. If you don't have the exact same frames, any and all encoding comparisons become completely meaningless. Actually, all encoding comparisons based on single screenshots are pretty meaningless anyway but eh, it gives people something to stir up drama about so why not.


Moral of this story: don't overuse temporal softening, it fucks stuff up.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
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01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2007-09-11, 16:23   Link #12
Garylisk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
BZZZT! Worng.
Some fun with REAL PICTURES from REAL FANSUBS:
1
2
Compare the above two shots. 1 is pretty obviously blurrier than 2 (compare the lines), and 1 also seems rather more blueish. 2 is obviously the better encode! Or...?

Spoiler: They are actually both from the EXACT SAME ENCODE. The shots are just two frames apart, and still they're so different. If you don't have the exact same frames, any and all encoding comparisons become completely meaningless. Actually, all encoding comparisons based on single screenshots are pretty meaningless anyway but eh, it gives people something to stir up drama about so why not.


Moral of this story: don't overuse temporal softening, it fucks stuff up.
There's no subs in the picture though...

I think some people are missing the point, here. Hell, you'll notice on the example pages I posted, the dated VKLL subs are obviously not as clean looking. The difference to note is the style of the subs. The coloring, the size, etc...

I think a lot of people have misunderstood the intent of this as comparing encodes, translation, and other aspects. This was not the aim. The aim is to compare typesets, mostly. Perhaps after I put in some more work on the infrastructure and pop up some more examples and some templates, the purpose will be more easily recognized.

However, I do thank you all for this input. A lot of ideas I had not thought of are being brought to light.
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Old 2007-09-11, 17:40   Link #13
Genjo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D404 View Post
I can see this wiki becoming yet another flame-war ridden place....
that's ONLY if the people let it get out of control.
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Old 2007-09-11, 17:50   Link #14
martino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garylisk View Post
I think a lot of people have misunderstood the intent of this as comparing encodes, translation, and other aspects. This was not the aim. The aim is to compare typesets, mostly. Perhaps after I put in some more work on the infrastructure and pop up some more examples and some templates, the purpose will be more easily recognized.
Why not just ask uLTraCarL in that case to post more screencaps with scenes where typesetting is evident? Or ask if he needs help in expanding his site with more series if people think that he is putting only a few series up...

If you want me to be honest, I really don't see the point. Mind you, the good thing is that it is a Wiki, however again why just create a Wiki to compare mainly typesetting? Does that mean there need to be at least 4 more of them to fill it in? Why not just have it all in one...?
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Old 2007-09-11, 19:03   Link #15
Slice of Life
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garylisk View Post
I've set up a little something that will hopefully prove useful eventually.
That's a great idea but you will spend a lot of time on moderation in the future. *cough* andrewLB *cough*.
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Old 2007-09-11, 19:19   Link #16
Garylisk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
That's a great idea but you will spend a lot of time on moderation in the future. *cough* andrewLB *cough*.
Nah, I'm sure I can ban folks
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Old 2007-09-12, 01:46   Link #17
getfresh
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that's ONLY if the people let it get out of control.
It isn't an "if"; it's a "when" and that "when" is often for even unbiased reviewer sites.

Also some groups may abuse by posting false pics of another group doing the same series, or flooding it with pics of their own to get attention.

It's a cool idea Gary, but I think itís better off if you have 2 separate sections. The main section being fansub comparisons that are updated by 3rd parties who are NOT fansubbers, but still know which locations of a video would be good comparison spots. In conjunction with this you can have a submittal link for groups to inform the site of a new release that they would like to have added to the comparison.

Besides that section you can make a forum or sub-section in wiki fashion that allows users to rating the releases they have watched of a certain series comparison. Here you don't really have to worry about too much abuse. Any fansub group that would reg a bunch of accounts to rate their version the best will most likely have a crap version anyways and people checking reviews will notice that. (I came to that conclusion because an experienced fansubber normally wants to see what ppl really thought of their work).

The above is all just my personal opinion, take it as you wish.
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Old 2007-09-12, 05:31   Link #18
Garylisk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
Any fansub group that would reg a bunch of accounts to rate their version the best will most likely have a crap version anyways and people checking reviews will notice that. (I came to that conclusion because an experienced fansubber normally wants to see what ppl really thought of their work).

The above is all just my personal opinion, take it as you wish.
I agree, it will be a "when" - I've been an an IRC operator, forum mod, and plenty of other things online that made me have to deal with badly behaved individuals. Fansubs can be the most perplexing sometimes, too.

I always wondered why people were so passionate about something they aren't making any money from. The idea of such a heated competition without any true reward is just baffling to me. Groups fighting to release their version first just to get more DL's. It's all meaningless in the end if your fansub is poor quality. You're not doing any sort of real service to the fans by putting out such a fansub.

At least I think it's gotten better recently. A lot of people have come to realize that.

In any case, I am off to work now, but I will hopefully be online sometime tonight and fit in some time to work on the wiki along with the video editing I have to do.
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Old 2007-09-12, 06:27   Link #19
getfresh
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Originally Posted by Garylisk View Post
I agree, it will be a "when" - I've been an an IRC operator, forum mod, and plenty of other things online that made me have to deal with badly behaved individuals. Fansubs can be the most perplexing sometimes, too.

I always wondered why people were so passionate about something they aren't making any money from. The idea of such a heated competition without any true reward is just baffling to me. Groups fighting to release their version first just to get more DL's. It's all meaningless in the end if your fansub is poor quality. You're not doing any sort of real service to the fans by putting out such a fansub.

At least I think it's gotten better recently. A lot of people have come to realize that.

In any case, I am off to work now, but I will hopefully be online sometime tonight and fit in some time to work on the wiki along with the video editing I have to do.
Why do people restore or sup-up cars, why do people try to have the most up to date powerful computers, why do people get so involved in anything? Because any hobby you spend A LOT of time on you are going to slowly build up a sense of pride as well as a sense of rivalry with others doing the same thing. The only improvements I've seen in the community lately is video quality. Flashier karaokes and same day releases aren't something I'd call improvements. Sadly if anything the community itself is more fractured and divided than ever. People aren't having open wars much anymore, they are doing the opposite. Hiding in their groups being less and less social with the rest of the community.

Not saying that everyone or every group is that way. I've just noticed a major drop in intergroup activities as well as the chats in group channels. Most channels are like sitting in a autojoin graveyard now. Been coming to this for awhile. Oh well... maybe something good will come of it, who knows.
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Old 2007-09-12, 16:56   Link #20
Garylisk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
Why do people restore or sup-up cars, why do people try to have the most up to date powerful computers, why do people get so involved in anything? Because any hobby you spend A LOT of time on you are going to slowly build up a sense of pride as well as a sense of rivalry with others doing the same thing. The only improvements I've seen in the community lately is video quality. Flashier karaokes and same day releases aren't something I'd call improvements. Sadly if anything the community itself is more fractured and divided than ever. People aren't having open wars much anymore, they are doing the opposite. Hiding in their groups being less and less social with the rest of the community.

Not saying that everyone or every group is that way. I've just noticed a major drop in intergroup activities as well as the chats in group channels. Most channels are like sitting in a autojoin graveyard now. Been coming to this for awhile. Oh well... maybe something good will come of it, who knows.
I dunno if I'd call some of the older same-day releases with quick and dirty encodes, subs with LOTS of mistakes, and timing errors, "something someone has spent a lot of time on" - Most warring groups of the past who wanted their leet DL count were spending a hell of a lot less time, so quality dropped. At least nowadays there's a jump in quality.

And I certainly hope a Wiki project like this will help bring the community together, as well as maybe help out the name of fansubbers as a whole. I don't know about everyone, but I have been called an elitist just on the pretense that I am a fansubber. Someone literally sent me a message that said "Oh, I see that you're a fansubber, and you make AMVs. I know your type, you elitist bastard."

To which I said "What the hell... How am I elitist by having two of the NERDIEST hobbies known to man?"

Anyway, I'm gonna work on the wiki a bit later on, all the info gathered here should prove wonderfully useful.

And Martino - I'm not ignoring your post. I'll respond just by saying that the main advantage of this is that it is a wiki. And you make a good point, there could be an opportunity for this to become something of an all-out comparison wiki. However, I don't see it happening any time too soon.
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