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Old 2007-09-19, 01:19   Link #461
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
My point is that Shinn lashing out against characters many held deeply in their hearts totally put him at a disadvantage and destroyed whatever fringe element of levity one could give to the character...And while most anime watchers just watch in glee over intensely trying to analyze, why would they even put out the effort to understand a noob character calling Cagali out?? I mean he was the most hated character in Gundam history for just calling out Cagali for her fathers' words! If you detach yourself from the warm liquid-filled womb of Gundam SEED's characters this isn't anything odd in the least, and it actually provides good drama and ideological conflict....But noooooo people don't want that, they just want you to bowdown to their fan-favorites and if you color too much outside the lines your tagged forever...
I agree with you that his conflict against the original characters netted him negative reputation from the get-go, but it's a bit more than that. He was on the wrong side of the ideological table. Let's take it a bit further:

In Gundam SEED, Athrun is in the exact same position that Shinn is. Why did Athrun join ZAFT? Because his mother, along with the colony of Junius 7, was destroyed by the Earth Alliance. Why did Shinn join ZAFT? Because his family was killed by fighting between Earth Alliance and Orb, and his nation was damaged as well. The reasons are practically identical.

What happens as SEED progressed? We see the fighting escalate, and eventually Athrun and Kira reach the point where they try to kill each other. After this, they have a revelation about warfare in general and get a good look at the big picture. They change their ideas about fighting after that. What about Shinn? Like Athrun, he has a moment where he thinks that he killed Kira. Unlike Athrun, he didn't have an emotional attachment to Kira, but Athrun's remorse and explanation about how Kira never tried to kill anyone did seem to impact Shinn. Considering that Shinn's whole strategy against Kira was to exploit his unwillingness to kill, I'd imagine that Shinn felt like a bit of a villain (the viewers surely saw him as such). Shinn also has a moment where he believes that he killed Athrun and Meyrin. Shinn wasn't all that close to Athrun, or even to Meyrin, but he was close to Luna, and Meyrin was Luna's sister. This could have also triggered a revelation for Shinn, as Shinn lost his own sister to war, and now someone close to him lost her sister (or so they believed), at Shinn's own hands, due to war. These are some major opportunities for Shinn to exhibit a change of values, but he doesn't.

It's important because after the events of SEED, the viewers have been hyped up about stopping the war. Orb's philosophy was presented as the prevailing one that would save the world. When Shinn trashed it, obviously that was a negative. The series never had him come around to doing what was really right, though. Shinn's idea of stopping war was to purely support the ideals of Chairman Dullindal. Unlike "Team Lacus" he never really seemed to put much thought into how war could really be stopped - he was just told by Rey to believe in and support the Chairman, and he did. He occasionally seemed to hesitate, but unfortunately we were never shown his thought process, so we can't know why or how deep it went.

I felt that Shinn seemed to be sort of hollow at the end of the series, as though he were confused about whether what he was doing was the right thing or not. He never pulled out of it, though. The last bit we get to see of him in action is where he'd have killed or seriously injured Luna had Athrun not intervened. His character development was nonexistent, and he was given some terrible traits. I was surprised to find that anyone could be a fan of him, but I'm glad that we're all able to discuss it like this. I can see that you who support Shinn had very different takes on the series than I did.
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Old 2007-09-19, 05:37   Link #462
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
Shinn understands power...He respects power and adheres to it...When Athrun showed Shinn his true power Shinn was ready to be his fanboy, but when that power began to shrink in comparison to his own he rebelled against that notion...
I don't see it as just being power. More a mix of power and ideology (both major themes of the series). Athrun had plenty of power during the beginning of the series but didn't get that "respect" until after Dullindal had the talk with him, Shinn and the others in Ep 18, which helped to place them all in the same page for a brief moment in time. Shinn's confidence in Athrun appeared to be lost only after he showed hesitation against Kira and got destroyed.
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Old 2007-09-19, 14:49   Link #463
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Shin fans - I don't understand them. Shin was just stupid because he couldn't control his emotions, he just blamed people for not being able to protect his family- specialy his sister. He had so many chances to change himself, to see what's right but no - he just used his anger to kill people, nothing more.

To bad that most of the battle scenes were involving him and the fact that he defeated Freedom with that mobile suit - no comment.

This is just my opinion, I won't be having a debate with anyone .
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Old 2007-09-19, 15:28   Link #464
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In Gundam SEED, Athrun is in the exact same position that Shinn is. Why did Athrun join ZAFT? Because his mother, along with the colony of Junius 7, was destroyed by the Earth Alliance. Why did Shinn join ZAFT? Because his family was killed by fighting between Earth Alliance and Orb, and his nation was damaged as well. The reasons are practically identical.
I disagree. Athrun joined in a time when war was going on, Shinn joined the military during a (short lived) time of peace. Athrun joining the military was a way to punish the earth alliance that caused Junius 7. Shinn joined, I believe, as a way to try and move on with life. As I've said, the military is an option in today's world if college isn't, and we know Shinn wouldn't have been able to go to an institution of higher learning in his financial state... The military would give him a place to stay, at least. I don't think we have any evidence Shinn got his own home anywhere. Yes, I'm sure that the fact that ZAFT opposed the earth alliance and didn't really do anything that's widely known to the public against Orb helped Shinn's choice, but I don't think he expected to actually fight against the Earth Alliance, and I know he didn't expect to fight against Orb.

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Considering that Shinn's whole strategy against Kira was to exploit his unwillingness to kill, I'd imagine that Shinn felt like a bit of a villain (the viewers surely saw him as such).
Yeah, Shinn was definitely the villain here, but something that always sticks out to me about that fight is the fact that Kira did, in fact, aim to kill, at least once. He tried to slash the Force Impulse in half, but Shinn split the mobile suit up, and used it to get behind the Freedom and destroyed one of it's wings. Yes, he took advantage of Kira's unwillingness to kill, but I do think that this little snippet shows that Shinn was able to deal with it if Kira DID aim to kill. After all, cutting a mobile suit in half usually kills someone... Unless you're Sting Oakley.

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It's important because after the events of SEED, the viewers have been hyped up about stopping the war. Orb's philosophy was presented as the prevailing one that would save the world. When Shinn trashed it, obviously that was a negative. The series never had him come around to doing what was really right, though. Shinn's idea of stopping war was to purely support the ideals of Chairman Dullindal. Unlike "Team Lacus" he never really seemed to put much thought into how war could really be stopped - he was just told by Rey to believe in and support the Chairman, and he did. He occasionally seemed to hesitate, but unfortunately we were never shown his thought process, so we can't know why or how deep it went.
I really do wish that the producers had come up with a more realistic view for Dullindal. He seemed to me like such a master of rationalization, and some very, very interesting conversations and confrontations could have arisen if he'd had a more realistic idea of how to deal with war. The idea of destroying Logos was pushing it for me, but I could accept it. The destiny plan went too far. That whole plan made it much, MUCH too obvious that he should be stopped. Meanwhile, if he'd proposed something to the extent of "well, most of the world is under our governance now, why don't we start a new world government?' That is PART of what he planned, but the DNA part of it made it unbelievable. The idea that he'd try and take over other countries that rejected his leadership would get into a question of sovereignty and freedom, where questions about how important it is for a country or a people to be free and about what gave a person a right to rule or a right to interfere in another country's government could have been dealt with. Orb would probably say that they are a sovereign nation and have the right to make their own laws and practices, but it would have been a better argument for Dullindal to say that justice could be better served, and peace better preserved in the world, if a world government was established. I think that would have been better, but that's just my opinion... I'm actually curious, I haven't seen all the gundam series, and none from UC. Has that been done before?

Either way, since Orb was presented with the "right" ideology in the last series, the entire idea of new characters opposing the old ones could have worked, and worked well, if a new ideology really brought into question the righteousness of Orb's world view.

Back to Shinn for this last bit, though. Shinn is a career soldier, and the fact that he's in the military keeps him out of the cold. I don't think Shinn has as much leeway to question why he's fighting - If he stops, what's he going to do with the rest of his life?
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Old 2007-09-20, 12:19   Link #465
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Seriously, why bother making a good anime when you can just toss one out with half of it being recap/ recycle scene and plot that didnt serve anything other than selling new gundam toys?
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Old 2007-09-20, 16:40   Link #466
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Azure22 View Post
I disagree. Athrun joined in a time when war was going on, Shinn joined the military during a (short lived) time of peace. Athrun joining the military was a way to punish the earth alliance that caused Junius 7. Shinn joined, I believe, as a way to try and move on with life. As I've said, the military is an option in today's world if college isn't, and we know Shinn wouldn't have been able to go to an institution of higher learning in his financial state... The military would give him a place to stay, at least. I don't think we have any evidence Shinn got his own home anywhere. Yes, I'm sure that the fact that ZAFT opposed the earth alliance and didn't really do anything that's widely known to the public against Orb helped Shinn's choice, but I don't think he expected to actually fight against the Earth Alliance, and I know he didn't expect to fight against Orb.
That's a very good point. There are some arguable points there, though. We don't know that Athrun joined to "punish" anyone - I don't remember him stating anything more than Junius 7 and his mother's deaths as the reason to join, though. So I suppose that we could theorize that he wanted revenge, as you said, or perhaps that he wanted to ensure that such a thing wouldn't happen again. I feel like he did allude to the latter, if not say it directly, in Gundam SEED. Either way, it's speculation.

As for Shinn, your points about the military are valid, but there's an exception. Shinn wasn't just part of the military - he was a pilot, and a red suit at that. This becomes pure speculation at this point, but I'd argue that he had to have some major drive not only to become a pilot, but to become so skilled that even as an upper-level pilot he had his own unique unit. Arguably this trumps any facts of whether he truly believed that he'd end up fighting or not - if he just wanted to join the military and live out his life, he could have just become a mechanic or any other maintenance worker. The mechanics of the Minerva even seemed to make up the majority of his friends.

Quote:
Yeah, Shinn was definitely the villain here, but something that always sticks out to me about that fight is the fact that Kira did, in fact, aim to kill, at least once. He tried to slash the Force Impulse in half, but Shinn split the mobile suit up, and used it to get behind the Freedom and destroyed one of it's wings.
I remember that scene, but I don't believe that Kira was aiming for the cockpit. Rather, Shinn's whole strategy was about placing his cockpit in the way, so that Kira would be forced to end his strike so as not to injure Shinn. That was, after all, the whole plan - it wasn't just about Shinn knowing that the cockpit wouldn't be targeted while the Gundam's peripherals would be. It was about taking advantage of the unwillingness to kill, and making it difficult for Kira not only to hit his targets, but to avoid hitting the cockpit as well. The breaking up of the Impulse seemed like more of a shock maneuver, partially to surprise Kira, and partially to replace the injured part of the Impulse. I'll also remark that that was probably the best fight of Gundam Seed Destiny, and perhaps even GSeed, simply because it showed tactical usage rather than raw power.

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I really do wish that the producers had come up with a more realistic view for Dullindal. He seemed to me like such a master of rationalization, and some very, very interesting conversations and confrontations could have arisen if he'd had a more realistic idea of how to deal with war.
I think that the ideas were actually fine and rather interesting, but again, the cinematic portrayal practically told the viewers to hate it because it was evil. As if it wasn't bad enough with the beloved Gundam SEED characters voicing their disapproval, Dullindal was almost always portrayed in a dark room, smiling slyly at certain events. When he took his "throne" in the Messiah (it was called that, right?) it was all over - only a villain would be in something that looked like that, and was laid out that way. It would have been very interesting if Dullindal were portrayed in a more positive light, which would have given the viewers more pause as to wondering what the right way would really be.

Quote:
Back to Shinn for this last bit, though. Shinn is a career soldier, and the fact that he's in the military keeps him out of the cold. I don't think Shinn has as much leeway to question why he's fighting - If he stops, what's he going to do with the rest of his life?
Athrun was a career soldier, too. Athrun even had it worse - his father was the head of the ZAFT body. What was he going to do when he stopped fighting as a soldier? We've seen the series - we know the answer already. It nullifies any such excuse for Shinn.
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Old 2007-09-20, 17:41   Link #467
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I remember that scene, but I don't believe that Kira was aiming for the cockpit. Rather, Shinn's whole strategy was about placing his cockpit in the way, so that Kira would be forced to end his strike so as not to injure Shinn. That was, after all, the whole plan - it wasn't just about Shinn knowing that the cockpit wouldn't be targeted while the Gundam's peripherals would be. It was about taking advantage of the unwillingness to kill, and making it difficult for Kira not only to hit his targets, but to avoid hitting the cockpit as well. The breaking up of the Impulse seemed like more of a shock maneuver, partially to surprise Kira, and partially to replace the injured part of the Impulse.
You know, that may be right, the idea that Shinn was putting the cockpit first so that Kira would have moral issues going on the offensive, but the fact remains that the Freedom DID slash at the midsection of the impulse. If the model kits are accurate at all (I've built three versions of the impulse, 1/60 scale force impulse, 1/100 scale force impulse, and 1/100 sword impulse), the cockpit for should be right about where Kira was slashing, so if Shinn hadn't broken up, I think it's safe to say he would've died. In this case, I'm agreeing, Shinn may have put the cockpit first thinking Kira wouldn't go for it, but Kira did in that one instance. I think I can say with decent certainty that Kira started slashing at the midsection and Shinn broke apart, rather than Shinn tried to position the cockpit in the way after Kira started slashing. That wouldn't have worked for his strategy of breaking the impulse apart.

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I'll also remark that that was probably the best fight of Gundam Seed Destiny, and perhaps even GSeed, simply because it showed tactical usage rather than raw power.
Completely agreed... Though I do think that the last fight scene between Providence and Freedom, and the battle between the Aegis and the Strike, were really good too. For completely different reasons, though... Ha, I have that episode 34 on my iPod, and whenever I'm bored, I take it out and skip to the last 6 minutes and 36 seconds... I've watched that scene an embarassing number of times.

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Athrun was a career soldier, too. Athrun even had it worse - his father was the head of the ZAFT body. What was he going to do when he stopped fighting as a soldier? We've seen the series - we know the answer already. It nullifies any such excuse for Shinn.
Really? I wouldn't define Athrun as a "career soldier" just because he was doing other things before Junius 7/Death of mom. He joined up for that cause specifically, and had he seen the fighting through to the end, even if his dad was Chairman, I think Athrun would've gone out of the military and done something in robotics. That's just a hunch, though.

Quote:
As if it wasn't bad enough with the beloved Gundam SEED characters voicing their disapproval, Dullindal was almost always portrayed in a dark room, smiling slyly at certain events. When he took his "throne" in the Messiah (it was called that, right?) it was all over - only a villain would be in something that looked like that, and was laid out that way. It would have been very interesting if Dullindal were portrayed in a more positive light, which would have given the viewers more pause as to wondering what the right way would really be.
Yeah, nothin' quite says "evil" like sitting around a dark room playing chess with the memories of a guy who tried to extinguish humanity as a whole... He needed a cat he could pet, or some tinted glasses to push up his nose. Anyways, I liked his idealism, but I think it's too naive. He's the exact opposite of Rau Le Crueset in that aspect: Rau was thoroughly disillusioned about the world, a fact which I like also (seems contrary, don't it?), and thought it couldn't be changed, so he'd just destroy it.


Quote:
As for Shinn, your points about the military are valid, but there's an exception. Shinn wasn't just part of the military - he was a pilot, and a red suit at that. This becomes pure speculation at this point, but I'd argue that he had to have some major drive not only to become a pilot, but to become so skilled that even as an upper-level pilot he had his own unique unit. Arguably this trumps any facts of whether he truly believed that he'd end up fighting or not - if he just wanted to join the military and live out his life, he could have just become a mechanic or any other maintenance worker. The mechanics of the Minerva even seemed to make up the majority of his friends.
Ya know, the fact that he seemed to be friends with the mechanics better than other pilots, save Rey and later Luna, suggests to me he may have joined up in the military with them. Perhaps they all receive basic training together, and Shinn just proved himself more able as a pilot? It would seem like ZAFT to me to do something like that: have everyone learn the basics, and then sort them based on talent. Sounds like Dullindal, anyways. I wonder if having a dormant SEED automatically gave Shinn some talent in the piloting department, or does the SEED only have an effect when it's on?
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Old 2007-09-20, 23:06   Link #468
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I don't see it as just being power. More a mix of power and ideology (both major themes of the series). Athrun had plenty of power during the beginning of the series but didn't get that "respect" until after Dullindal had the talk with him, Shinn and the others in Ep 18, which helped to place them all in the same page for a brief moment in time. Shinn's confidence in Athrun appeared to be lost only after he showed hesitation against Kira and got destroyed.
He didn't really lose faith in Athrun. If he was, he would not just shriek at him to do it, and would probably punch Athrun for being such a wussy. He still believed in Athrun because he snapped at Athrun. If he lost his faith in Athrun, he wouldn't even have bothered snapping at him and probably punch him or some damn thing.

They all respected Athrun even before he took charge of the Lohengrin gate destruction thingy. They were all gushing "Athrun is the hero of the last war" yadda yadda yadda. It was only Shinn who came to respect him I think in that particular episode - remember that he was also suspicious of Athrun being another new superior officer and all that. And we all know how Shinn reacts to authority.
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Old 2007-09-21, 05:26   Link #469
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
He didn't really lose faith in Athrun. If he was, he would not just shriek at him to do it, and would probably punch Athrun for being such a wussy. He still believed in Athrun because he snapped at Athrun. If he lost his faith in Athrun, he wouldn't even have bothered snapping at him and probably punch him or some damn thing.

They all respected Athrun even before he took charge of the Lohengrin gate destruction thingy. They were all gushing "Athrun is the hero of the last war" yadda yadda yadda. It was only Shinn who came to respect him I think in that particular episode - remember that he was also suspicious of Athrun being another new superior officer and all that. And we all know how Shinn reacts to authority.
Like I said earlier, there's authority Shinn respects & always follows, and authority he resists & rebels against. Dullindal & Rey fall in the first category and everyone else falls in the latter. Athrun came close to D&R levels before falling back down deeply into the second.
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Old 2007-09-21, 08:42   Link #470
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Originally Posted by Azure22
I really do wish that the producers had come up with a more realistic view for Dullindal. He seemed to me like such a master of rationalization, and some very, very interesting conversations and confrontations could have arisen if he'd had a more realistic idea of how to deal with war. The idea of destroying Logos was pushing it for me, but I could accept it. The destiny plan went too far. That whole plan made it much, MUCH too obvious that he should be stopped.
That's sort of the point of Durandal's character. He was arguably the most idealistic character in Destiny.

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Originally Posted by Azure22
Meanwhile, if he'd proposed something to the extent of "well, most of the world is under our governance now, why don't we start a new world government?' That is PART of what he planned, but the DNA part of it made it unbelievable. The idea that he'd try and take over other countries that rejected his leadership would get into a question of sovereignty and freedom, where questions about how important it is for a country or a people to be free and about what gave a person a right to rule or a right to interfere in another country's government could have been dealt with. Orb would probably say that they are a sovereign nation and have the right to make their own laws and practices, but it would have been a better argument for Dullindal to say that justice could be better served, and peace better preserved in the world, if a world government was established. I think that would have been better, but that's just my opinion... I'm actually curious, I haven't seen all the gundam series, and none from UC. Has that been done before?
It would have been awesome if that's how Destiny really had developed. However, it wouldn't have fit into a Gundam show - the focus would have been on politics and larger ideas rather than mecha action. Moreover, this kind of story is almost never tackled seriously in anime.

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Originally Posted by Azure22
Back to Shinn for this last bit, though. Shinn is a career soldier, and the fact that he's in the military keeps him out of the cold. I don't think Shinn has as much leeway to question why he's fighting - If he stops, what's he going to do with the rest of his life?
I think that Shinn's character development suffered in two ways: the first is that he never really suffered from the consequences of his actions. As a result, he never examined those actions and never had much chance to grow. While modern soldiers are very much trained to do whatever they're ordered to do, they're also supposed to exercise judgement in what they do. Unfortunately, Shinn simply accepted the authority of Durandal and Rey, effectively letting them think about the larger issues for him. I find that this actually makes him a very realistic character, but it doesn't do much in making him more likable either.

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Originally Posted by Azure22
Either way, since Orb was presented with the "right" ideology in the last series, the entire idea of new characters opposing the old ones could have worked, and worked well, if a new ideology really brought into question the righteousness of Orb's world view.
Not quite. First, it's rather explicitly laid out that Orb under the Seirans was an absolute disaster; but Cagalli's attempts to lead according to the principles for her father didn't exactly work much better. What she had to do was to actually change her approach to geopolitics; and Orb's "ideology" at the end of Destiny is very different from it at the beginning (or when her father was in charge, for that matter). In any case, Destiny's main thrust was that grand ideas like Durandal's Destiny Plan are bad rather than any sort of confirmation of the "righteousness of Orb's world view".

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Originally Posted by Ledgem
I think that the ideas were actually fine and rather interesting, but again, the cinematic portrayal practically told the viewers to hate it because it was evil. As if it wasn't bad enough with the beloved Gundam SEED characters voicing their disapproval, Dullindal was almost always portrayed in a dark room, smiling slyly at certain events. When he took his "throne" in the Messiah (it was called that, right?) it was all over - only a villain would be in something that looked like that, and was laid out that way. It would have been very interesting if Dullindal were portrayed in a more positive light, which would have given the viewers more pause as to wondering what the right way would really be.
I think that the creators were worried that if they were any more subtle, their viewers would make the mistake of thinking that Durandal was the good guy. As a result, there's a noticeable change between his portrayal in the first part of the series and the end. Even with these unsubtle cues, there's still viewers who think that he had the right idea.

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Originally Posted by Azure22
Really? I wouldn't define Athrun as a "career soldier" just because he was doing other things before Junius 7/Death of mom. He joined up for that cause specifically, and had he seen the fighting through to the end, even if his dad was Chairman, I think Athrun would've gone out of the military and done something in robotics. That's just a hunch, though.
I don't think it matters too much since Athrun was a much more professional soldier than Shinn ever was.

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Originally Posted by brightman
Like I said earlier, there's authority Shinn respects & always follows, and authority he resists & rebels against. Dullindal & Rey fall in the first category and everyone else falls in the latter. Athrun came close to D&R levels before falling back down deeply into the second.
That's a very astute observation. Shinn respected and obeyed people who had authority as long as they said things that appealed to his worldview. He also preferred simple explanations and arguments to more complicated ones. Rey and Durandal understood this character aspect, and exploited it to the fullest.
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Old 2007-09-21, 14:17   Link #471
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I don't think it matters too much since Athrun was a much more professional soldier than Shinn ever was.
Now that I disagree with. As Brightman said before, Shinn respects certain authority (ie Dullindal and Rey) as opposed to Athrun. We get the impression of Shinn being too disobedient in the first half of the series, and the impression him being too obedient in the second half. The result of this is that Shinn is a worse soldier than Athrun under Athrun's command, and, in all technicalities, a better soldier than Athrun when he's following orders from someone who he agrees with. This isn't to say Shinn's not a hot head, and it's not to say that he wasn't always a better soldier than Athrun (he certainly wasn't), but Athrun has problems with authority he disagrees with also. He abandons ZAFT - twice. I think the difference is, again, cinematics: Shinn disagrees with the authority shown to be right (Athrun), while Dullindal disagrees with authority shown to be wrong (his father, Dullindal.) Therefore, we tend to forget that Athrun has the same rash and independent streak that Shinn has - just with a cooler head.

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Not quite. First, it's rather explicitly laid out that Orb under the Seirans was an absolute disaster; but Cagalli's attempts to lead according to the principles for her father didn't exactly work much better. What she had to do was to actually change her approach to geopolitics; and Orb's "ideology" at the end of Destiny is very different from it at the beginning (or when her father was in charge, for that matter). In any case, Destiny's main thrust was that grand ideas like Durandal's Destiny Plan are bad rather than any sort of confirmation of the "righteousness of Orb's world view".
Alright, perhaps I phrased what I said wrong. I should have said that the idea of "not invading another nation, not allowing another nation to invade, and not getting involved in the conflicts of other nations" was the right political ideology shown in the series. This ideology was already confirmed right in Gundam SEED, it needed no clarification. And I'd say that Orb's attitude has just gone back to the way it was with Cagalli's father at the end of Destiny, because they're still following that same no invading, no getting invaded, no interfering idea. ZAFT was trying to attack them using a large laser. They don't want to be hit by it, so they go after the relay stations, rather than attacking the colonies or whatever, and they stop after taking out the Requiem. They didn't have any territorial goals, they just wanted to defend themselves. And that's how I think the idea of sovereignty and questions of who has the right to rule could have made their way into the series: Dullindal wanted to rule Orb, they didn't want to be ruled by ZAFT. Ya know, I just had an odd thought that I would've enjoyed seeing ZAFT win against Orb in that battle where Cagalli got to use Akatsuki. They could've had scenes of an occupation, some more interaction outside the mobile suits between the pilots and other important people, and then there could have been a coup... It would've worked well if they'd had more episodes, I think. Maybe done the Orb/Akatsuki battle earlier... Pointless to say, but I think it coulda been cool anyways.

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I think that the creators were worried that if they were any more subtle, their viewers would make the mistake of thinking that Durandal was the good guy. As a result, there's a noticeable change between his portrayal in the first part of the series and the end. Even with these unsubtle cues, there's still viewers who think that he had the right idea.
Hey, some people like the bad guys... I usually do, but never really believe in what they say. But I would've actually loved to see Dullindal portrayed as a good guy with a political view that wouldn't work out. We'd feel sorrier for him at the end when he died- Though I thought he was gracious enough in that moment as is. That he didn't get angry with Rey for shooting him I think says something good. Ya know, he probably was a "good guy," as in, someone who'd be pleasant to know, someone nice, but for the purposes of the show he had to portrayed as the bad guy.
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Old 2007-09-21, 15:07   Link #472
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Originally Posted by Azure22 View Post
The result of this is that Shinn is a worse soldier than Athrun under Athrun's command, and, in all technicalities, a better soldier than Athrun when he's following orders from someone who he agrees with. This isn't to say Shinn's not a hot head, and it's not to say that he wasn't always a better soldier than Athrun (he certainly wasn't), but Athrun has problems with authority he disagrees with also. He abandons ZAFT - twice. I think the difference is, again, cinematics: Shinn disagrees with the authority shown to be right (Athrun), while Dullindal disagrees with authority shown to be wrong (his father, Dullindal.) Therefore, we tend to forget that Athrun has the same rash and independent streak that Shinn has - just with a cooler head.
Now that 4Tran has joined the party, I'll try to keep my posts shorter so that you're not swamped by responses, Azure22

My first point of disagreement is over what we'd consider a good soldier to be. Is it someone who can simply follow orders? Is it someone who is skilled at their position? Is it someone who fights for the ideals, rather than their superiors? Depending on which definition you choose, or which you mix and match, Athrun or Shinn emerge as the superior soldier. Athrun falls into the type of soldier who has his eye more on the big picture than on obeying orders from his superiors. Seemingly from the very beginning of Destiny, Athrun is shown to be troubled by what he sees unfolding: fake Lacus; the development of more weapons; an agenda that somehow makes him clash with Kira once more; the call for the destruction of Logos (followed by the development of even more weapons), and so on. He didn't leave ZAFT for no reason in Destiny, either. Meer warned him of the conversation between Rey and Dullindal, and Athrun happened to second-guess what they were going to do. Leaving ZAFT was, in a way, a matter of survival for him. In Gundam SEED, he did leave ZAFT of his own decision, but not without a lot of thought and anguish.

Contrast that with Shinn's decisions. Arguably, Shinn worked on a much smaller scale, performing actions that weren't as massive as changing sides. Shinn always did his actions relatively quickly, as well. Disobeying Athrun's orders was one thing, but the returning of Stellar was arguably the biggest defiance that Shinn performed. He didn't take any real deliberation over it. I believe we see him looking upset, and then a few scenes later, he's going ninja on the nurse and busting Stellar out of there. He never truly put thought into it and gave thought to ZAFT's protocols or actions, he just acted out of emotion for Stellar and that was it.

Toward the end of the series there does seem to be some hope for Shinn, as he answers less readily to Dullindal and Rey and does seem to be a bit confused. The series never really allowed him to draw his own conclusions, though.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran
I think that Shinn's character development suffered in two ways: the first is that he never really suffered from the consequences of his actions. As a result, he never examined those actions and never had much chance to grow.
I mentioned this point in an earlier post, and completely agree with you on it.
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Old 2007-09-21, 16:01   Link #473
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Durandall, I don't think was a bad guy because of his ideology. Ideologies are never wrong. Ever. They're opinions, no more and no less, and a "wrong" ideology implemented in a good way, would probably be much better than a "right" ideology implemented in a bad way.

Lacus didn't decide to strike down Durandall because of his ideology, and Kira I don't think ever really opposed Durandall directly for his ideology. Hell, even between ep 23~28, the part where Kira is talking to Murrue when she gives him that big sister pat on the head, he says that maybe it was all just some mistake and that there really was a rogue group from the PLANT trying to kill Lacus.

Heck, as for the Destiny Plan placing people in work that they would be good at by the code of their genes, do you know how good of a plan that actually would be?! If it would work perfectly, it'd mean the end of unemployment and perhaps even the end of all poverty. Interestingly enough, both of my grandfathers were engineers, and in turn, my major is also of an engineering discipline. My parents deviated from these engineering genes, and we're not millionaires. I think I have a good future ahead of me since essentially I'm returning *to* the disciplines which my genes have imparted upon me.

On an aside, I also heard upon campus that an African American's brain was 5 cm less in circumference than a caucasian's, whose brains were 1 cm less in circumference than that of asians. It seems to be a reasonable explanation as to why there are so many african-americans playing sports (take note of football, basketball, and boxing), and finding employment in manual labor, and makes a joke I once heard less surprising.

"Demongod, you're 92nd in class rank," says my counselor (in high school)

"Man, I'm 92nd...who's ahead of me?!"

"Lots and lots of asians," responds a classmate.

End aside.

Frankly, if there was some sort of politiconomical plan that took note of this, was able to map it, and to find opportunity for everyone, what's *not* to like about that? I highly doubt that it would absolutely destroy freedom of choice as Lacus thought.

What *would* take away freedom of choice, is how Durandall chose to implement this plan. He wanted everyone to comply to his rules, and those that didn't would no longer exist. Come on, the guy tried to kill you, and on top of that, he's trying to zap your country with a giant laser. You call *that* a good idea?

Frankly, I think it would have made for a much *better* plot if instead of sending assassins after Lacus that Durandall went and assassinated the *Seirans*, and instead figuratively picked up the little doll that was Cagalli, and put her in power with his own blessing. I also wonder why he would choose to assassinate Lacus, when she was just living on an island taking care of orphans. And in the end, ironically enough, Lacus was *supportive* of Mia taking over her songstress role, if it made Mia happy.

It probably would have made life a lot easier for Lacus had Mia lived, and had Mia run into trouble of not being able to write original songs, or would have had two children with Athrun (okay, let's not go there...I'm trying to make Britney Spears look stupid here, in case you didn't notice ), Lacus would have stepped in for a little bit and fixed things up, so long as Mia put in the legwork, which Mia had the unlimited energy to do.

And because of Durandall's fetish with removing Lacus, Mia in the end bit it, as did Durandall.

What *would* have been interesting, though, was if Durandall, rather than trying to wipe Lacus out, simply gave her no reason to come after him with her space fleet and custom-built shiny-suits for her two knights. In that case, the Minerva *would* have been the second archangel, and Destiny and Legend the second coming of Freedom and Justice.

No...Dully's plan wasn't bad...Dully's implementation was just horrible. Then again, I really think that the producers didn't give Dully's character enough thought...why would he send a few mobile suits to take out Lacus when he knew the Freedom was hiding there, when the Seirans would have been a far easier target?
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Old 2007-09-21, 16:40   Link #474
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I think I'm judging "better soldier" in terms of following orders quickly. Athrun is preferable in other jobs, and I think most of us would like to be more easily compared to Athrun as a person rather than Shinn (Athrun's ability to think for himself is something I think we'd all, myself included, like to think we can do). Athrun, is, in the end, a person who can follow what he ultimately believes in, no matter what outside interference comes. This is not the formula for "a good soldier." I have difficulty picturing someone who hesitates whenever they need to pull a trigger as being the type a commander would want to have in their unit... Granted, Athrun doesn't hesitate THAT much, but I think most people in charge would prefer to not worry about their subordinates constantly worrying if they made the right choice. Of course, Athrun was in a more commanding role in SEED Destiny, so we didn't get to see that, and in SEED, until a little before the end of his time in ZAFT, he tended to just follow orders.

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Heck, as for the Destiny Plan placing people in work that they would be good at by the code of their genes, do you know how good of a plan that actually would be?! If it would work perfectly, it'd mean the end of unemployment and perhaps even the end of all poverty.
There are two ways to look at the destiny plan.

1. This is a way to end poverty. Everyone will be employed, and it's a way to make sure almost everyone is happy. Yes, there will probably be some people would still be depressed and have problems with life, but that's a natural part of being human and can't be helped. As a matter of fact, therapists will have been perfectly selected for their jobs, so they'll be the best the world has ever seen, if all goes properly. War won't ever have to happen again, it'd become a thing of the past, since, with everyone working under one system, there won't be any enemy anymore. It'll all fit, just like pieces of a puzzle.

2. The destiny plan undermines the power of human determination. Yes, perhaps one person's genes are better suited to one task than another, yes, perhaps the person has all the prerequisites in his DNA, but that doesn't mean that they're going to want to work in the job their assigned. People dream, people have aspirations, and those who work hard have always been able to overcome their difficulties. Setting up a system where, no matter how hard a person works, they still can't change where they are in life is simply inhumane.

I tried to make those sound about even. The truth of the matter is that I swing back and forth in my opinion on this, but in the end, I know I'd hate to be trapped in one job against my will, and I know that simply realizing I was trapped would be enough to make me want to do somethin' else. From a purely impersonal standpoint, yes, the destiny plan looks like it could work. So does communism, and democracy could, just like the destiny plan, end poverty "if it all works right." It's designed by humans. Nothing designed by humans works to it's full potential, whether it runs out of batteries, malfunctions, runs slow, breaks, or doesn't work at all.

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No...Dully's plan wasn't bad...Dully's implementation was just horrible. Then again, I really think that the producers didn't give Dully's character enough thought...why would he send a few mobile suits to take out Lacus when he knew the Freedom was hiding there, when the Seirans would have been a far easier target?
Two ideas here. Maybe Dullindal was planning on making Cagalli his puppet when he met with her in the first episode of Destiny, but she proved too different, ideologically speaking, from him. Then he found Athrun. By the way, did Dully know that Freedom was there with Lacus? I didn't think he did.
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Old 2007-09-21, 16:55   Link #475
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About the destiny plan point 2:

I think that's a matter of extents. If by your genes I could tell you that you'd be better in a quantitative field and it is strongly suggested for you to go into one, you still have a huge spectrum of options. We don't know how precise the DP was, but to be able to guide people into a potentially suitable field for a slight concession in overall choice I think may work well.

As for Dully not knowing about the Freedom, how could he not know about the Freedom despite knowing about Lacus, and probably Kira? I mean honestly, would the thing just go poof and disappear? He certainly knew who Kira Yamato was ala Ulti Coordy, and he certainly knew about Lacus. It didn't make sense that he just conveniently forgot about Freedom.
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Old 2007-09-21, 17:25   Link #476
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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
Durandall, I don't think was a bad guy because of his ideology. Ideologies are never wrong. Ever. They're opinions, no more and no less, and a "wrong" ideology implemented in a good way, would probably be much better than a "right" ideology implemented in a bad way.
They can be wrong if they're unfounded, which I'm about to show you. This'll deviate from the series and focus on the core ideaology of Dullindal, as applied to life.

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Heck, as for the Destiny Plan placing people in work that they would be good at by the code of their genes, do you know how good of a plan that actually would be?! If it would work perfectly, it'd mean the end of unemployment and perhaps even the end of all poverty. Interestingly enough, both of my grandfathers were engineers, and in turn, my major is also of an engineering discipline. My parents deviated from these engineering genes, and we're not millionaires. I think I have a good future ahead of me since essentially I'm returning *to* the disciplines which my genes have imparted upon me.
This would be true, if genes determined everything about us.

Let me bring up an interesting series of studies that were performed on identical twins. Twins are people with an identical genetic make up. Have you ever met some? They look alike, but their personalities are not the same. Studies performed on various twins verified that their DNA was the exact same, and yet their genetic expression differed. We have many genes, but not all of those genes are active at once - they couldn't be, or else we'd be in major trouble. The genes only become active under certain conditions and times. A large part of this is due to environmental stimulus. In order to fully clone someone, you would need not only to give them the same genetic makeup, but subject them to the exact same experiences and conditions that the original went through.

If you clone a person, you'll be able to get the majority of physical features to be the same, sure. But your physical build is only part of being matched to a job - depending on the job, it doesn't even have anything to do with it. What matters to a job is your interest in it. I'd propose that the reason why your family has a line of engineers is because the parents laid the foundation for a further interest in engineering, either by inspiring their children about engineering or simply passing on a mentality that is conducive to engineering. There's also the fact that in many cultures, it is expected that the children will take on the same job type as their parents, but I don't know whether your lineage is part of such a culture.

If people could be matched to jobs that they were good at, then it'd simply make things more productive. It wouldn't end unemployment, because people not being able to find what they're suitable for is only part of unemployment. A larger part is simply the jobs not being there, or people being denied opportunities. In order for the Destiny plan to be feasible, not only would the population need to be controlled, but developments would need to be controlled. For example, what if someone is matched perfectly to be a car mechanic, and then robots are developed that could take over that job? The person would be unemployed, or forced into a job that they weren't "destined" for. What you're proposing is an end to progress and development in order for people to exist happily - or what we'd presume is happily.

Speaking of progress, things like scientific advancement, or advancement on any front, aren't formed by people who accept the status quo. My opinion is that a society that accepted something like the Destiny plan would not see any advancement. How could it? People would simply be doing what they were told; sheep who were happy to be herded. How can anyone think outside of the box, and how could anyone suggest something that could shake such a "perfect" system up? There are actually socieities that exist and have existed where something similar took place - people did what they were ordered to do, and didn't question it. Many of those societies were destroyed or are seen as undeveloped by our current standards. Read Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel if you're interested in the ideas about why certain societies dominated over others.

Either way, the point that I want to drive here is that genes aren't everything. The debate over "nature vs. nurture" will always continue, but the twin studies that I mentioned above should prove that it's really a combination of both that make the individual. Genetics is still a relatively young science, and I think that people jumped to conclusions over its implications.

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On an aside, I also heard upon campus that an African American's brain was 5 cm less in circumference than a caucasian's, whose brains were 1 cm less in circumference than that of asians. It seems to be a reasonable explanation as to why there are so many african-americans playing sports (take note of football, basketball, and boxing), and finding employment in manual labor, and makes a joke I once heard less surprising.
It's acually a terrible explanation. If brain volume (or mass, or a combination of the two for density) were related to intelligence, as you're proposing, then animals such as elephants and whales should be much more intelligent than humans. There was a study done involving dolphins which basically showed that it wasn't the size of the brain that counted, but the amount of connections within the brain. This is the basis of how the brain functions, after all - the neural network is a matter of connections between cells. Arguably, this is what thoughts and even memories are - which cells are stimulated in what way. Just because a person has a larger brain (more brain tissue) than another doesn't mean a thing. There could even be a physiological explanation for why a brain would appear larger than another, such as the tissue's tendency to take in fluid.

When a child is born, their brain is full of activity. It's not just cellular division, but massive linking between the cells. As a person ages, fewer connections are formed and connections are severed. Some say that it's nature's way of making a person more specialized - an energy-saving mechanism so that they only keep what's really necessary. This explains why often, children have an easier time picking things up than adults, and why we lose skills if we don't use them. It's not just a matter of being closed-minded, but about mental flexibility (there is an official term for this, but I can't recall it).

This is science, there's no arguing with it.

If you want to really explain your observations, I'd say that it has to do with psychology and culture. In America, at least, many minority groups are coming from impoverished backgrounds, and it does impact them. They may place less value on education, or they may simply feel that the system is against them and that whatever they do is helpless. For certain, there's likely a level of mistrust against the greater society, and it would be well warranted. It has nothing to do with core intelligence, but motivation, inspiration, and all of those factors.

You (jokingly) mentioned your class rank, and stated that Asians were all ahead of you. This is also cultural. In the Asian culture, bringing honor and prestige to the family is of the utmost importance. As Asian families become Americanized we don't see it as strictly, but the core values are often still there. Caucasians, on the other hand, are much more individualistic. It impacts your drive to study and do well - it even impacts what your definitions of doing well and success are.

But even attributing it to psychology and culture is a bit of a simplification. The point in bringing those up, however, is to show that genetics are not the sole determining factor - arguably they're a very small one.

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I highly doubt that it would absolutely destroy freedom of choice as Lacus thought.
Have you ever read Brave New World, by Aldous Huxley? It describes a society not all too different from that of the Destiny scenario, except that instead of determining a person's station by their genes, people are "built" for their stations by subjecting the fetus to certain chemicals - people destined for lower stations are subject to chemicals that would make them slightly retarded, while those destined for higher positions are subject to chemicals meant to stimulate the brain and such. Even then, as far as realism the book likely only has the lower classes down right. It's unlikely that creating people for high-level positions using such methods would be feasible.

It's an interesting read either way, as it seems relatively horrific. I'd imagine that the only people who would like such a society are those who do not want to be responsible for themselves and do not like uncertainty in life. Like the Destiny Plan, such a setting as in Brave New World would eliminate those. While it doesn't explicitely take away freedoms in a police state fashion, it takes away freedom of people's development. If you live in a society where everything is taken care of, and you only follow orders, how free will you feel to step out of line, to do something different and revolutionary? Not very. And in some parts of the world, and to some cultures, this is perfectly acceptable. I come from a very individualistic, rather than a collective culture, so my view is that such a thing would be terrible.

The potential for corruption is also seemingly very high. Society has suddenly become accustomed to being given orders. People are afraid of not conforming to the standards. But certainly, someone at the top of the society must be free from it? If so, who's to say that they wouldn't abuse it for their own personal gain? Or, if the entire society came to truly believe in their Destiny society, how likely is it that they'd change it? The society would be stuck, paralyzed out of fear of ruining Destiny. Limited to no progress. Remember, when considering what such an implementation would be like, think about it in terms of how it would impact people's deeper psychologies and the culture. If tomorrow everyone were placed into a new position that they were well-suited for, it'd be wonderful. We all retain the memories of individually fighting for our own betterment, and trying to advance ourselves. What happens in a society where people do what they are told, and never aspire to anything greater?
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Old 2007-09-21, 18:43   Link #477
Demongod86
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Good points. As for me, my father is a real estate agent (one of the most disastrous occupations as of the moment), and my mother is a piano teacher. My grandparents were engineers. And I do value individualism more than collectivism, as collectivism has shown itself not to work as it directly clashes with intrinsic human natures.

I am thinking that under the DP, those that were genetically meant to be scientists would be the ones thinking out of the box.

While I never read brave new world, I did read 1984. I think it's the same idea...although once again, if the DP assigns only one job to a person rather than a multitude, yes, we may have a problem.
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Old 2007-09-21, 19:31   Link #478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure22
Now that I disagree with. As Brightman said before, Shinn respects certain authority (ie Dullindal and Rey) as opposed to Athrun. We get the impression of Shinn being too disobedient in the first half of the series, and the impression him being too obedient in the second half. The result of this is that Shinn is a worse soldier than Athrun under Athrun's command, and, in all technicalities, a better soldier than Athrun when he's following orders from someone who he agrees with. This isn't to say Shinn's not a hot head, and it's not to say that he wasn't always a better soldier than Athrun (he certainly wasn't), but Athrun has problems with authority he disagrees with also. He abandons ZAFT - twice. I think the difference is, again, cinematics: Shinn disagrees with the authority shown to be right (Athrun), while Dullindal disagrees with authority shown to be wrong (his father, Dullindal.) Therefore, we tend to forget that Athrun has the same rash and independent streak that Shinn has - just with a cooler head.
The measure of a soldier's professionalism is based on how becoming his conduct is to his tasks. Generally, this is determined by a few different factors:

1. Following orders.
2. Seperating personal feelings from the uniform.
3. Insubordination.

By any measure, Shinn scores extremely poorly on all of these factors. In comparison, Athrun could have acted more professionally, but his overall performance was still fairly decent. While he left ZAFT twice, they were both for reasons that verged towards illegal orders, so there's quite a bit of leeway there.

Also, note that a soldier has absolutely no choice in whose orders he decides to obey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure22
Alright, perhaps I phrased what I said wrong. I should have said that the idea of "not invading another nation, not allowing another nation to invade, and not getting involved in the conflicts of other nations" was the right political ideology shown in the series. This ideology was already confirmed right in Gundam SEED, it needed no clarification. And I'd say that Orb's attitude has just gone back to the way it was with Cagalli's father at the end of Destiny, because they're still following that same no invading, no getting invaded, no interfering idea.
Cagalli decided to attack PLANT's forces rather than sue for peace. This directly contradicts the previous Orb policy. The fact that PLANT was a threat does not preclude diplomatic action, but Cagalli didn't even try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure22
And that's how I think the idea of sovereignty and questions of who has the right to rule could have made their way into the series: Dullindal wanted to rule Orb, they didn't want to be ruled by ZAFT. Ya know, I just had an odd thought that I would've enjoyed seeing ZAFT win against Orb in that battle where Cagalli got to use Akatsuki. They could've had scenes of an occupation, some more interaction outside the mobile suits between the pilots and other important people, and then there could have been a coup... It would've worked well if they'd had more episodes, I think. Maybe done the Orb/Akatsuki battle earlier... Pointless to say, but I think it coulda been cool anyways.
That's also cool; unfortunately, it's very unGundam as well. I still maintain that Destiny would have been a much better show if it had nothing to do with Gundam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure22
Hey, some people like the bad guys... I usually do, but never really believe in what they say. But I would've actually loved to see Dullindal portrayed as a good guy with a political view that wouldn't work out. We'd feel sorrier for him at the end when he died- Though I thought he was gracious enough in that moment as is. That he didn't get angry with Rey for shooting him I think says something good. Ya know, he probably was a "good guy," as in, someone who'd be pleasant to know, someone nice, but for the purposes of the show he had to portrayed as the bad guy.
This would veer the story into one that discusses politics, philosophy, and logic at length. Few anime have shown any deftness at portraying these elements, so I'm not exactly surprised that Destiny shied away from dealing with them in any detail.

On the other hand, Durandal is a fairly decent person in many ways. However, his problem is that his belief in his ideology meant that he felt justified in doing very ruthless things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem
My first point of disagreement is over what we'd consider a good soldier to be.
I think that this would be better phrased as "who is the more professional soldier?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
Durandall, I don't think was a bad guy because of his ideology. Ideologies are never wrong. Ever. They're opinions, no more and no less, and a "wrong" ideology implemented in a good way, would probably be much better than a "right" ideology implemented in a bad way.
As a point of order, I don't think that this is true. It's quite possible for opinions to be wrong (or at least less correct than other ones), just as it is for ideologies to be wrong. However, it's still probably more constructive to judge a character by his actions rather than his beliefs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
Lacus didn't decide to strike down Durandall because of his ideology, and Kira I don't think ever really opposed Durandall directly for his ideology. Hell, even between ep 23~28, the part where Kira is talking to Murrue when she gives him that big sister pat on the head, he says that maybe it was all just some mistake and that there really was a rogue group from the PLANT trying to kill Lacus.
Correct. Lacus would have taken Durandal down regardless of what he believed in or what his ultimate goal was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
Frankly, I think it would have made for a much *better* plot if instead of sending assassins after Lacus that Durandall went and assassinated the *Seirans*, and instead figuratively picked up the little doll that was Cagalli, and put her in power with his own blessing. I also wonder why he would choose to assassinate Lacus, when she was just living on an island taking care of orphans. And in the end, ironically enough, Lacus was *supportive* of Mia taking over her songstress role, if it made Mia happy.
The reason Durandal needed to kill Lacus is twofold: Lacus was a threat to Durandal's power - she could subvert his troops and other people simply by existing outside of his control. There were plenty of people both inside ZAFT and the PLANT government who would take her side against him. The second reason is that Durandal didn't see much of a chance for implementing the Destiny Plan on its own merits. What he planned to do was to use Lacus' popularity to ease the plan into place gradually. As long as Lacus was still alive, she could ruin that strategem at any time.

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Originally Posted by Demongod86
No...Dully's plan wasn't bad...Dully's implementation was just horrible.
Durandal's plan was bad for a couple of reasons: it didn't address the problem that it was supposed to, and it would only succeed if several parts of the plan worked perfectly.

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Originally Posted by Azure22
1. This is a way to end poverty. Everyone will be employed, and it's a way to make sure almost everyone is happy.
This is no more workable than Communism is.
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Old 2007-09-21, 22:12   Link #479
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The fact that PLANT was a threat does not preclude diplomatic action, but Cagalli didn't even try.
Maybe it doesn't preclude, but I assume diplomatic action is taking place as the fighting is going on. While Cagalli is shown just sitting in the room looking angry, everyone else around her is going through papers and seems to be rushing around, if I recall correctly. I'd say what Orb is doing at that moment is the equivalent of trying to talk to a guy with a gun while scanning a room with your eyes for anyway to disable your aggressor, which I would say is enough in line with Orb's usual ideology. It'd be dumb for it to just sit back and let the laser hit it. I think the reason Uzumi Nara Attha would've done the same thing Cagalli did, because, after all, the were preparing for the attack from the earth alliance while they were trying to negotiate. An invasion is one thing, you can negotiate while they're getting ready. But giant laser strike from the sky? I think anyone would want somethin' up there trying to stop that from getting ready.

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The measure of a soldier's professionalism is based on how becoming his conduct is to his tasks. Generally, this is determined by a few different factors:

1. Following orders.
2. Seperating personal feelings from the uniform.
3. Insubordination.

By any measure, Shinn scores extremely poorly on all of these factors. In comparison, Athrun could have acted more professionally, but his overall performance was still fairly decent. While he left ZAFT twice, they were both for reasons that verged towards illegal orders, so there's quite a bit of leeway there.

Also, note that a soldier has absolutely no choice in whose orders he decides to obey.
First off, I'd like to think Athrun had just as much difficulty as Shinn did when it came to separating personal feelings from his uniform. Let's not forget that Athrun joined up for the sake of his own personal feelings, that he should fight for his nation which was wrongfully attacked by the Earth Alliance. Then, when he's fighting Kira, he hesitates, has trouble pulling the trigger, doesn't try as hard as he should. Let's not forget how much he lost it when Niccol died, also. I'll talk about his leaving ZAFT in a little bit, but I'd say that involves "personal feelings." Then in SEED Destiny, he still has the same problems hesitating, still can't always pull the trigger, and when he fights against Orb, you can see how anguished he gets, and how he doesn't want to kill any of the Orb soldiers. At that point, you can tell that's interfering with his ability to carry out his orders.

And then there's the matter of "insubordination" and "following orders." Yeah, Shinn's more insubordinate, but he follows orders extremely well. At this point, I'm defining "insubordination" as "disrespecting superior officers." I would say, however, that Shinn is very adept at handling the majority of his orders. I should also note that I'm judging "following orders" in terms of the severity of the order. When Athrun left the first time, yes, it was after a great deal of thought, but the orders he'd received were perfectly legal. A weapon with a dangerous component in it had fallen into what may be enemy hands. Finding it or destroying it is a perfectly logical, and perfectly legal, action for the military to take. Athrun then goes ahead and changes sides and fights against ZAFT. Yes, that turns out to be the morally right decision, but it doesn't change the fact that he refused to follow lawful orders and went as far as to fight against the military he had previously been in. I'm not gonna say that's the wrong thing, but if you were in charge of the military (and, for the record, believed yourself to be doing the right thing), a soldier who does that is a worse soldier than one who's mouthy, especially if the mouthy soldier happens to complete his missions remarkably effectively. And then in SEED Destiny, we don't know what Dullindal was going to do to him, but if a person in charge has reason to believe that one of their subordinates intensely disagrees with what he's being asked to do and probably won't do their job well, I think most people would want that subordinate off the job. Now, I don't remember all of this episode, and if we had any hint that Athrun was going to be killed or have anything else illegal done to him, it'd be a different story. No, let me rephrase that: If Athrun had had any hint that something illegal may happen to him, then it'd be a different story. If I recall, I don't think he did, other than the military police coming for him.

I'd say Shinn's most severe breach of orders came when he returned Stellar to the Earth Alliance. What ZAFT was doing at that point was, unless there are special, international rules for treating Extendeds, quite illegal. They're running tests on a prisoner of war, and they're going to deface the dead body in order to learn more. This is a human rights issue, I think, and while the Earth Alliance is CERTAINLY not following a good human rights ideal in even creating the Extended, ZAFT would be at fault for not treating them humanely. Shinn returned Stellar to an unlawful military to save her life from another unlawful (I assume) military. In this instance, Shinn's collective transgressions would be less severe before an unbiased audience, or so I believe.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure22
1. This is a way to end poverty. Everyone will be employed, and it's a way to make sure almost everyone is happy.
This is no more workable than Communism is.
Ya know, I think I alluded to that...

Quote:
From a purely impersonal standpoint, yes, the destiny plan looks like it could work. So does communism, and democracy could, just like the destiny plan, end poverty "if it all works right." It's designed by humans. Nothing designed by humans works to it's full potential, whether it runs out of batteries, malfunctions, runs slow, breaks, or doesn't work at all.
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Last edited by Azure22; 2007-09-24 at 13:44.
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Old 2007-09-21, 23:39   Link #480
Demongod86
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I think that classifying Athrun as a pure soldier is sort of not in the correct ballpark. Frankly, the second time around, I think Athrun joined ZAFT not to follow ZAFT orders, but to get another gundam, more or less. He joined up so he could do something for Cagalli. In other words, he's more of a knight than a soldier.

As for the military police coming after him, when he saw he was being spied on, I think he added two and two. Either way, there was nothing good that was going to happen to him, so he bailed.

And as for Shinn completing his missions with efficiency, had Kira been not such a nice guy, Shinn would have been dead in episode 23, perhaps 28, 34, and certainly 43 when Kira decided not to torso-beam him right in the cockpit.

For all his "effectiveness", it should be noted that he got as far as he did since Kira was just such a nice guy.
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