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Old 2007-10-09, 18:35   Link #421
krisslanza
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Sorry to revive an old thread but uhm... I was thinking. Do the ships used by the TSAB have any weapons beside the Arc-en-Ciel? It's never been mentioned... I assume they do, since the Arc-en-Ciel wasn't added to the Asura until A's, which means it had no offensive weaponry.
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Old 2007-10-09, 19:16   Link #422
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There were six ships, which were a different class than the Asura's, seen firing at the Cradle in episode 25 with beam weapons capable of far more precision than Arc-en-ciel.
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Old 2007-10-09, 19:18   Link #423
krisslanza
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Really? Hmmm... Should've watched that RAW then...
...
Actually I haven't watched the RAWs in a while and have just been reading about them. Guess I'll see this myself when the subs are all done... Thanks, it was bugging me... *Takes note*
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Old 2007-10-09, 20:18   Link #424
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
There were six ships, which were a different class than the Asura's, seen firing at the Cradle in episode 25 with beam weapons capable of far more precision than Arc-en-ciel.
Actually, they demonstrated a lower destructive radius. We don't know about comparative precision (as measured by how well the weapon can be aimed). We are not even absolutely sure whether Arc is incapable of a lesser destructive radius than hundreds of km, but merely chose the maximum power to maximize the probability of destroying what they saw as a particularly dangerous device.
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Old 2007-10-09, 20:47   Link #425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, they demonstrated a lower destructive radius. We don't know about comparative precision (as measured by how well the weapon can be aimed).
CEP is a measure of precision for weapon systems.

Quote:
We are not even absolutely sure whether Arc is incapable of a lesser destructive radius than hundreds of km, but merely chose the maximum power to maximize the probability of destroying what they saw as a particularly dangerous device.
We haven't seen any visuals or dialog that indicate to what degree Arc-en-ciel is scalable.

BTW, I was mistaken about the episode number. The ships don't shoot the Cradle until episode 26.
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Old 2007-10-09, 21:15   Link #426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
CEP is a measure of precision for weapon systems.
With only two shots to go on, it is mathematically possible to get CEP, but its statistical confidence will be almost worthlessly low. IIRC, both shots were hits, and more or less dead center.
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Old 2007-10-09, 21:54   Link #427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
With only two shots to go on, it is mathematically possible to get CEP, but its statistical confidence will be almost worthlessly low.
That's undeniably true. I wasn't thinking clearly.

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IIRC, both shots were hits, and more or less dead center.
This is the clearest view we have of an Arc-en-ciel shot. It initially hit the target but then the beam diverged wildly and was followed by massive over-penetration.



Not a very good angle here but the new weapon appears to be a lot better at delivering energy to its target and only its target.

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Old 2007-10-10, 09:26   Link #428
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Concerning the Arc-en-Ciel


アルカンシェル - Arc-en-Ciel
(A's DVD6)
A magic cannon equipped to the Administration Bureau's larger warships.
Boasting the highest destructive power within the Administration Bureau's naval armory, use of the Arc-en-Ciel is only allowed in certain conditions or against certain targets, and only when specific requirements are fulfilled. The projectile has nearly no destructive power itself; instead, a short time after impact, a spatial distortion and a subsequent annihilating reaction is generated. As the area of effect is even greater than the maximum firing range, withdrawing to a safe location after firing by Transferring is an absolute must.

It would seem the power of the Arc-en-Ciel isn't scalable, and in fact it sounds like an actual physical projectile is launched, rather than being some beam attack (at least according to the booklet... does it actually look like that? )
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Old 2007-10-10, 09:29   Link #429
krisslanza
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Wow... That sure is a deadly cannon Explains why in A's the beam passed through the core without doing anything until a short time later.
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Old 2007-10-10, 11:28   Link #430
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by selkirk View Post
~
It would seem the power of the Arc-en-Ciel isn't scalable, and in fact it sounds like an actual physical projectile is launched, rather than being some beam attack (at least according to the booklet... does it actually look like that? )
Theory-wise, the beam might just be an overglorified transportation medium. That, or a really BIG (and flashy) smoketrail. It does however, require a rethink on the efficiency of the weapon system compared to their conventional beam-weapons (in terms of destructive power).

[Ergo, the Arc-en-Ciel is not that bad after all.]

Cheers.
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Old 2007-10-16, 10:23   Link #431
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do we have any information about nanoha's fin funnels?
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Old 2008-01-09, 18:59   Link #432
krisslanza
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Ok ok. Sorry to revive this but er... Is there any sort of site that lists all the translated DVD Booklet info? A download won't work as I'm unsure if the college computers allow it... They might, but that would be a last resort.
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Old 2008-01-09, 19:06   Link #433
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This should work.
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Old 2008-01-09, 19:17   Link #434
krisslanza
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Ah thanks Keroko.
This shall help immensely for my... Project. *Shifty look*

Thanks again!
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Old 2008-01-15, 12:50   Link #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Do they? The only one I ever saw aim is Vice. The rest of them were spamming away hapilly.
And the fact one does need to AIM for best effect rather weakens any concept of fully automated fire control, at least in those commonly tossed out Storage Devices. The fact that Storm Raider requires aiming despite being a specialized weapon+AI for a sniper does no favors to even Intelligent Devices having fully auto aiming functionality.

Quote:
*cough*Mach Caliber*cough*
True. But that's considered an exception. That's why we were so impressed. And even that lasted for a few seconds. In general, it doesn't happen.

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Pffrt, I still don't buy that bull about magic and technollogy being the same. The second part is correct, though, if only in certain aplications (sci-fi being more easy to fundementalize then magic).
It is more accurate to say it is analyzed the same way. We know nothing about mechanisms.

Quote:
Where did Nanoha even see the electronic sight? Did you see a sight Nanoha was staring though other then the cross while targeting? Again, this looks more like a mental thing then a physical one.
But it is still a sight. It is not a sight directly on the weapon - given RH's shape such a sight is useless. Most likely the sight was some kind of projection directly into her visual system, but it still blows the idea of full automatic targeting out of the water.

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I would like to know what you are basing this one. Nanoha's blasts are pretty damn fast, as are Vita's. And Fate's. And Teana's. Same thing goes for casting time, Nanoha's Axel Shooter is pretty much instant, and still can be controlled.
Fast and slow flight velocities are a matter of phrasing. So let's add a reference. Certainly, they are not even CLOSE to the speed of bullets. One will also notice despite their homing characteristics, most often homing rounds are evaded (mainly because they aren't too fast). As for relative speeds among Midchildran rounds, it is IIRC stated that non-homers are faster, which is logical.

As for readiness times, you'll notice that most often, the balls appear. Then there's a pause, THEN they are launched. For example, see A's Ep5. Take SchwalbeFliegen. It takes a full 4 seconds from balls to fire. Take Accel Shooter - takes at least 2-3 seconds, and it was clearly not yet under guidance when launched, and Nanoha is supposed to be extraordinarily good with these weapons. Plasma Lancer took 4 seconds even after they appeared (obviously, Fate's strong suit is not setting up weapons...), and the reorientation after the miss took a whole 4-6 seconds to set.

Quote:
But if an enemy is close, taking the time to look down an aiming sight doesn't exactly do you much favors either.
If you had a LR capability, the amount of enemies that can get close decreases. Further, if they do get close, there's no law saying you can't just point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
AFAIK beam attacks never miss in Nanoha. Ever. The closest was Nanoha's partial hit on Vita, and that was at close range anyway. Whatever system they're using obviously more than compensates for ergonomic issues.
Take that fix, turn it around. Despite the point blank range, a solid hit was nevertheless not achieved. I'm not saying they don't have systems that partially compensate for ergonomics, but bad ergonomics are bad ergonomics. All else being even, a weapon with good ergonomics will hit farther unless fire control becomes completely automated which does not seem to be the case.

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I think part of the source of all this is that the mages were designed in the image of mecha more than infantry. Mecha have HUDs and control their fire with computers so MSLN mages do too. And of course they were also designed in the image of mages, who generally just do things by waving their hands about.
Well, that might have washed back when there were only staves. But now there are real guns too.
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Old 2008-01-15, 14:44   Link #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
And the fact one does need to AIM for best effect rather weakens any concept of fully automated fire control, at least in those commonly tossed out Storage Devices. The fact that Storm Raider requires aiming despite being a specialized weapon+AI for a sniper does no favors to even Intelligent Devices having fully auto aiming functionality.
True, aiming can be concidered a requirement for certain situations. Vice was a sniper, which requires a hell of a lot more acuracy then anything we've seen the others do so far. However, judging by Nanoha's 'metal scope', you could also say that its a matter of personal preference.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
True. But that's considered an exception. That's why we were so impressed. And even that lasted for a few seconds. In general, it doesn't happen.
Yes, but point in case still is that devices do poses a rather large amount of ergonomics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
But it is still a sight. It is not a sight directly on the weapon - given RH's shape such a sight is useless. Most likely the sight was some kind of projection directly into her visual system, but it still blows the idea of full automatic targeting out of the water.
And at the same time it also blows the idea of a gun being superior in terms of aiming clear out of the water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Fast and slow flight velocities are a matter of phrasing. So let's add a reference. Certainly, they are not even CLOSE to the speed of bullets. One will also notice despite their homing characteristics, most often homing rounds are evaded (mainly because they aren't too fast).
About as much as non-homing shots are evaded, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
As for relative speeds among Midchildran rounds, it is IIRC stated that non-homers are faster, which is logical.
Source? I can't recall this ever being stated.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
As for readiness times, you'll notice that most often, the balls appear. Then there's a pause, THEN they are launched. For example, see A's Ep5. Take SchwalbeFliegen. It takes a full 4 seconds from balls to fire. Take Accel Shooter - takes at least 2-3 seconds, and it was clearly not yet under guidance when launched, and Nanoha is supposed to be extraordinarily good with these weapons. Plasma Lancer took 4 seconds even after they appeared (obviously, Fate's strong suit is not setting up weapons...), and the reorientation after the miss took a whole 4-6 seconds to set.
Which is the case for... oh, just about every spell? Take A's 2, Fate's Arc Saber (a non-homing attack) takes 5 seconds to be fired. A's 5, Signum's Sturm Felle takes 5 seconds, episode 7 has several more spells that don't activate instantly, despite not being homing ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
If you had a LR capability, the amount of enemies that can get close decreases. Further, if they do get close, there's no law saying you can't just point.
LR capaballity?

But 'if they do get close, just point' doesn't exactly require guns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Take that fix, turn it around. Despite the point blank range, a solid hit was nevertheless not achieved. I'm not saying they don't have systems that partially compensate for ergonomics, but bad ergonomics are bad ergonomics. All else being even, a weapon with good ergonomics will hit farther unless fire control becomes completely automated which does not seem to be the case.
Large attacks are obviously harder to control. The targeting system can only help the aim before the target has moved, afterwards its like throwing a rock, no matter how accurate you throw, if your target moves before the rock hits him you'll miss. But really, even if Nanoha had used a gun-based device and aimed manually, would it have made any difference? Vita would still have dodged.

It just occured to me that staff devices may have another function by auto aiming. If the wielder has to focuss aiming down the sight of his device, his concentration is split. By allowing the device to correct the aiming, the user can devide more attention to concentration on the actuall attack, increasing its effciency.
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Old 2008-01-15, 19:40   Link #437
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It's safe to say that the physical features of the weapon aren't necessarily indicative of its capabilities. RH looks like it does at least partially because that's what Nanoha expected it to look like - kind of like her barrier jacket, which was generated at the same time.

So it's not totally unexpected that RH has an effectively-useless sight-thingy because Nanoha expects a big gun to have one - in other words, even though RH doesn't really need it to aim, it's present as a psychological aid to Nanoha, to give it a "big gun" feel.

That said, I don't see the problem really. We don't ever see a beam attack fired off-bore, so it's reasonable to assume that they can't be fired off-bore. We don't ever see one "miss", and aiming-assist is well within the capabilities of the devices, so it's reasonable to assume the devices help with aiming the big beams.

Clearly the homing projectiles' limitations aren't just limitations in the device, but also in the user. Vita isn't saying "You can't shoot that many shots!" but "Nobody can control that many shots!" (which was essentially true - Nanoha had to work to get the pin-point accuracy going later.) On the other hand, at this point Nanoha's still just a nine-year-old - sure, she's naturally gifted at it, but experience counts for a lot too. Ten years later, Nanoha is a monster when it comes to homing shots, and clearly she appreciates the tactical flexibility that gives her... enough that Teana wins her victory with the "hit by homing shot you weren't expecting" technique that Nanoha uses.

Vice is a special case, because he's the only "sniper" we know about. Additionally, he's just not as much of a mage as most of our other cast members, right? Vice might have to work a lot harder to get his results than, say, Nanoha...
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Old 2008-01-15, 21:54   Link #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
It's safe to say that the physical features of the weapon aren't necessarily indicative of its capabilities. RH looks like it does at least partially because that's what Nanoha expected it to look like - kind of like her barrier jacket, which was generated at the same time.

So it's not totally unexpected that RH has an effectively-useless sight-thingy because Nanoha expects a big gun to have one - in other words, even though RH doesn't really need it to aim, it's present as a psychological aid to Nanoha, to give it a "big gun" feel.
1) Trying to dismiss something as purely "psychological" is not good analysis technique.
2) And it is not a big gun, or a big cannon. It is a staff! Psychologically, Nanoha should expect RH to auto-aim before she expects a scope, especially since this is the first time we even saw a sight.

Quote:
That said, I don't see the problem really. We don't ever see a beam attack fired off-bore, so it's reasonable to assume that they can't be fired off-bore. We don't ever see one "miss", and aiming-assist is well within the capabilities of the devices, so it's reasonable to assume the devices help with aiming the big beams.
It is one or the other. Aiming assist beyond providing a sight requires "electronic" off-bore beam steering.

Quote:
Clearly the homing projectiles' limitations ... technique that Nanoha uses.
Entirely agree with this paragraph, but it proves my point - the stick doesn't do everything for you despite the wishes of say Jimmy C. The user does a lot of the work.

Quote:
Vice is a special case, because he's the only "sniper" we know about. Additionally, he's just not as much of a mage as most of our other cast members, right? Vice might have to work a lot harder to get his results than, say, Nanoha...
All that wouldn't have mattered had the weapons been auto-aiming, like some propose. Since they aren't, ergonomics are important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
True, aiming can be concidered a requirement for certain situations. Vice was a sniper, which requires a hell of a lot more acuracy then anything we've seen the others do so far.
There we go. When push comes to shove, you need sights and stocks. Ergo, ergonomics are important, even in the Nanoverse. Man, it is amazing how hard people fight for the concept that ergonomics are unimportant!

Quote:
However, judging by Nanoha's 'metal scope', you could also say that its a matter of personal preference.
The electronic scope is a way to compensate for a proper sight.

Quote:
Yes, but point in case still is that devices do poses a rather large amount of ergonomics.
Do you mean "automation"?

Quote:
And at the same time it also blows the idea of a gun being superior in terms of aiming clear out of the water.
What?

Quote:
About as much as non-homing shots are evaded, really.
Probably the fact it is hard to aim them is a contributor to this.

Quote:
Source? I can't recall this ever being stated.
Check NanohaWiki.

Quote:
Which is the case for... oh, just about every spell? Take A's 2, Fate's Arc Saber (a non-homing attack) takes 5 seconds to be fired. A's 5, Signum's Sturm Felle takes 5 seconds, episode 7 has several more spells that don't activate instantly, despite not being homing ones.
You must be reading a completely different paragraph from what I typed. Arc Saber is a homing attack. Sturm Felle has to be set straight down. The point is if you don't aim, you are forced to load correction or homing data, and as you clearly agree, there is a delay out there. There is a clear need, and a clear delay to accomodate it.

Compare with, for example, how Teana did it in Ep1 of StrikerS. Note how fast she shifted b/w different targets, despite being a B rank. That's because she was using sights and aiming instead of fooling around with a "Torpedo Setter" trying to load gyro offsets into her weapons.

Quote:
LR capaballity?

But 'if they do get close, just point' doesn't exactly require guns.
Long Range capability. With proper ergonomics, you can aim further and hit further, while retaining your ability to point or even spray and pray at close range.

Quote:
Large attacks are obviously harder to control. The targeting system can only help the aim before the target has moved, afterwards its like throwing a rock, no matter how accurate you throw, if your target moves before the rock hits him you'll miss. But really, even if Nanoha had used a gun-based device and aimed manually, would it have made any difference? Vita would still have dodged.
The point here is to refute the Never Miss claim made by someone other than you. You did notice I'm shooting at about 3 people.

Quote:
It just occured to me that staff devices may have another function by auto aiming. If the wielder has to focuss aiming down the sight of his device, his concentration is split. By allowing the device to correct the aiming, the user can devide more attention to concentration on the actuall attack, increasing its effciency.
Actually, the fact that sights are projected for long range shots (which you agree to) kinds of takes away from "auto aiming" theories. So what really happens is that the wielder struggles to aim, wastes time loading a guidance system into his shots and/or blows time loading compensating gyro data. How this is supposed to help his concentration is unclear.
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Old 2008-01-16, 00:20   Link #439
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Just my quick two cents on the issue.

I note a firing delay with all homing shots that have been used. I attribute this to a process which appears logical to me, as follows:

1) Mage spots targets and designates the targets.
2) Mage utters spell and generates homing shots.
3) With synchronisation with the mage's mind, the Intelligent Device calculates windage, angle, power, coriolis effect, range, and locks onto the targets designated by the mage's mind.
4) This information is processed and sorted concurrently with the magical processing to generate the spell.
5) Shots are fired.
6) Device controls the locking on and course correction for the shots, or downloads sufficient data into the shots to allow them to retarget (like Plasma Lancer). For other mage-controlled shots, the Mage essentially thinks "Go here" and the Device translates that into shot-speak.

This process is actually quite similar to a missile launch. The fighter detects the target on radar, and locks it. The targeting information is sent to the missile. The missile then locks onto the target, and is then launched.

As for Keroko's statement that you don't need to aim with a device, it begs asking what Nanoha was doing pointing Raging Heart at Vita when the latter was advancing on her in Episode 1 of A's.

Furthermore, the idea that you don't need to aim at close range is quite ridiculous, considering all the red dot sights being used for close quaters battle.
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Old 2008-01-16, 02:25   Link #440
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It is one or the other. Aiming assist beyond providing a sight requires "electronic" off-bore beam steering.
What? What about stabilization through the barrier jacket, computer-assisted aiming through a predictive reticule or even small-scale aiming adjustments through the barrier jacket, basically anything that imitates computer-assisted fire-control schemes like we see in modern combat vehicles?


I agree with your basic point that ergonomics are good and Nanoha devices were designed for cool (for some values of cool, anyway), not ergonomics, and could therefore stand some improvement. But I'm not sure the proper ergonomics on an aerial mage's weapon should look like a modern weapon's. I don't think it should come as any surprise that the gun-like device-user of the main characters, Teana, has devices based off pistols- they have a much wider range of motion shouldered rifle and only occupy one hand, something important when you're fairly likely to encounter targets that can move quickly in 3D at close range and you can attack and defend with either hand, and sometimes both independently.

And like I said, at long range I think they're dependent enough on computer assistance (through homing shots and hopefully some of the measures I described in my first paragraph for beams) that ergonomics designed for close-range encounters will cause a proportionally small performance drop.
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