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Old 2007-10-15, 21:41   Link #21
Sassarai
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Actually Ive have no idea how to debate against you because you're confusing me;;. Oh well its just speculation vs speculation and always someone comes up with a bigger speculation then the other previous speculation etc etc etc. I give up. I stated my point and im done. I dont like circle arguments like the ones in the Raki thread it drives me bonkers.

Sassarais stats:

Mental(willpower): E

Last edited by Sassarai; 2007-10-15 at 22:30.
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Old 2007-10-15, 22:49   Link #22
Fate_Archer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Besides, IIRC, those cards aren't the word of god, but only the Organisation's views. And we know Theresa hid most of her hand from them.

Well, they aren't but they are our best references now. And even if they aren't, the actual stats wouldn't be so far from this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
I also had a thought on how Alicia's stats can be so high, technically she is a partially awakened #1, and as we have seen, the partial awakenings increase power significantly.

I was thinking the same even before these databooks showed up. Following the logic that every time you get close to awake and go back, you become stronger, hence the superiority of the semi-awakened, the return from a complete awakening would turn Alicia each time even more stronger.
So, powerful enough, Alicia can still evolve, while Riful, Easley and even Priscilla are predestined to stay on their same levels.

If that's true, it would make much sense all investments, sacrifices and the time spent by the Org on these two.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
These stats are only inexact estimations of power. Inexact because for example Ophelia's first three stats (youki, strength, agility) which were all A allowed her to win against SS Female AB. 1 quite strong warrior + 2 average + 1 weak warrior managed to kill SS male awakened being
Sorry for breaking your sentence, but I guess none of these stats or informations can translate the luck or surprise factor.
Ophelia was dominated and could be dead, but even with a broken neck she managed to kill and surprise the female SS awakened been.
Teresa was fooled by a cheap shot. Does that makes Priscilla stronger than Teresa? No. (Please, don't start all over again, i'm just using it as an argument)
So yeah, in this way these stats aren't really exact, but it doesn't make them inexact either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Also when estimating these stats they had to compare to sth (maybe themselves ), so the question is Alicia's power is S relative to whom ? Don't think they had an eye such good as Galatea in Teresa's era so direct measurement was impossible I think.
I guess they just make the more logical thing, they use the average as reference. The ones that have potential or surpass this average are placed with lesser digits.
And just because there wasn't an eye in the #1 to #5 of this generation, it doesn't mean that there wasn't an eye at all.
Tabitha is the "eye" of the fab 7 and she is just #31. Even without an eye so good as Galatea, a good measurement would be possible, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
Awakened beings are rated on a different scale, either that or they waste a ton of energy maintaining their awakened forms.
Judging by their stats, awakened Katea seems to be a "normal" Claymore, while Duff has a C in its intelligence trait. The scale seems to be the same for both Claymores and Awakened beens. So most probably, they use their yoki to maintain their awakened body.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
They also imply that they have an Eye for each era, so I assume they can measure power quite accurately. (The exception being Teresa, as she was likely the Eye of her Era, thus could have fudged her info.)
To avoid this kind of issue, the eye and the number #1 should be different warriors, with the eye being a more reliable and weaker Claymore. Don't know if they consider that, but I just guess they should know.
On a side note, Teresa's sensing ability is totally directed for combat.
Besides Clare also detecting Galatea from a great distance, which would mean an indirect implication, we never saw Teresa sensing yoki from an unusual distance, or even acting like an eye.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
I think it is quite possible, they were probably over-enthusiastic with Priscilla's awesome potential, and assumed she could defeat Teresa with help. They were right actually, if Priscilla had followed the plan Teresa would have died before the fight had even started. The fault lies on Priscilla for the failure of the mission, not Teresa. Not to mention the Organization acted on reflex, panic-mode if you will, they could not afford to have Teresa awaken OR go rogue. They did not have much choice on the matter in the big-scheme of things.
Totally agreed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BaalChaamon View Post
Interesting enough Hilda (No.6) has a so much more powerful Yoki level compared to Ophelai (No.4) of her time. Awakening seems to have disproportionately increased that stat of hers so I'd say she hasnt seen her haydays prior to her awakening and could have become a top 5 warrior, hence why her complete Yoki potential was unleashed upon awakening.
About that matter, there isn't a proper answer I think.
Firstly, Rubel said that Priscilla unleashead all her potential when she awoke. What conflicts with Riful's statement when she left Clare, Jean and Galatea alive, so they could get stronger and awake as even more powerful awakened beens.

I just believe Hilda was stronger, regardless of their ranks. (Yeah, I prefer Rifuls words, she hasn't left those 3 for no reason.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassarai View Post
...

Sassarais stats:

Mental(willpower): E
lol

That's because you're only using 15% of your mental power.
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Old 2007-10-15, 23:18   Link #23
Sassarai
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Originally Posted by Fate_Archer View Post
lol

That's because you're only using 15% of your mental power.

Ahem Correction 20% if you want to get techinical then it's 20.233(repeating of course)
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Old 2007-10-15, 23:51   Link #24
Fenrir_valindri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate_Archer View Post

About that matter, there isn't a proper answer I think.
Firstly, Rubel said that Priscilla unleashead all her potential when she awoke. What conflicts with Riful's statement when she left Clare, Jean and Galatea alive, so they could get stronger and awake as even more powerful awakened beens.

I just believe Hilda was stronger, regardless of their ranks. (Yeah, I prefer Rifuls words, she hasn't left those 3 for no reason)
Actually if you notice, Riful only says that about Clare and Jean, the two partially awakened, she does not say anything about Galatea, I guess she realy did not like the idea of Alicia measuring her power.

So both Rubel and Riful could be correct, Rubel in that Awakening "awakens" your potential power, and Riful in that Jean and Clare could increase there power before awakening fully.

and don't worry Sassarai, i'll try not to drag you into my arguements.

Fenrir Valindri's stats

Mental(willpower) : A
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Old 2007-10-16, 01:04   Link #25
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The stats is only a gauge of their physical abilities. When it comes to fighting, lot of other factors comes into play like skill, knowledge, morale and even luck.
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Old 2007-10-16, 01:08   Link #26
azurie
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desire would also be considered too i would think. One who has a desire to win might do a lot better than someone who is just there because it's a job or some other so so reason. wouldn't ya think? or would you qualify that as part of moral?
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Old 2007-10-16, 03:27   Link #27
BaalChaamon
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I'm with Fenrir on the awakening and power surge topic. While Claymores (partially awakened or not) are able to increase their ability and skill levels progressively through training (partially awakened ones possible more effectively by tapping into a greater portion of their potential or by improving the quality of their yoki as Miria stated in the Slashers arc), Awakened ones cannot improve their abilities but remain static once they have unleashed their actual and potential power. Thats why I said that Hilda could have possible become a Tier 1 warrior (aka Top 5), but she awakened before she could use her potential.

Regarding the whole issue of Teresa hiding her power: I always wondered why the Org. never looked for the remains of Rosemary to check what had happened. Its not a casual event for a former No.1 to come close to awakening and would be worthwhile checking on what went on. They did find the awakened remains of Ophelia after all. My guess is that Teresa buried her Claymore style after she had her fun with her.

Last edited by BaalChaamon; 2007-10-16 at 03:45.
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Old 2007-10-16, 03:56   Link #28
dee32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
I believe the Organization never got to re-do their evaluation of Clare's skills due to her leaving the Organization right before the War in the North, but we have a pretty good guess at what Clare's stats are like now that we have Flora's.

My guess for Clare's stats at that time would be =

Yoki = C+
Agility = B
Strength = C
Mental = B
Sense = B+
Leadership = E
I agree with mostly with your assumption of Clare's stats except for:

Agility = A

Is it safe to say at this time when Clare faces Flora, Clare would be considered a single digit possibly the new number 7?


This is my guess for Clare's stats seven years after the war in the North when she fights Miria.

Yoki = C+
Agility = A
Strength = C
Mental = B+
Sense = A
Leadership = D

Another thing does anyone have an idea what are the stats for Cynthia, Tabitha, and Yuma are?
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Old 2007-10-16, 05:34   Link #29
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Originally Posted by dee32 View Post
Is it safe to say at this time when Clare faces Flora, Clare would be considered a single digit possibly the new number 7?
Number 9 I'd say, Flora still beat her in Leadership, yoki, tactics and iai. In the other hand, she blasted awakened ophelia alone and was arguably better than Jean when it came to leadership and efficiency against Riful.

Quote:
Another thing does anyone have an idea what are the stats for Cynthia, Tabitha, and Yuma are?
At the time of Pieta...

Cynthia is stronger than Deneve (according to ranking), and is defensive too. She was one of the six last standing in pieta, and she clearly takes control of the group after the fab 4 take off to rescue the poor lambs from Riful. so I would say:

Yoki = C+
Agility = C
Strength = C+
Mental = B+
Sense = B
Leadership = B

Tabitha shows some "tricky movements" against the first AB in Pieta, and become the Ghost 7s eye, with a better range than Clare. She was not among the last 6 standing in Pieta. She was 30. She's a follower, also. So:

Yoki = C
Agility = B
Strength = C
Mental = C
Sense = B+
Leadership = E


Yuma sucks. She's the only one wounded in the first Pieta skirmish, she isn't part of the last 6, she is a follower, she cannot even follow Clare when she walks fast. Still, she survived, and she can sense power. So:

Yoki = D
Agility = E
Strength = D
Mental = E
Sense = D
Leadership = E
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Old 2007-10-16, 09:12   Link #30
Fenrir_valindri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaalChaamon View Post
Regarding the whole issue of Teresa hiding her power: I always wondered why the Org. never looked for the remains of Rosemary to check what had happened. Its not a casual event for a former No.1 to come close to awakening and would be worthwhile checking on what went on. They did find the awakened remains of Ophelia after all. My guess is that Teresa buried her Claymore style after she had her fun with her.
I have my doubts on whether Teresa's power was actually well hidden from the Organization, as you said, a nearly-awakened former #1 is way to important to go unchecked...unless you have confidence in Teresa's ability to kill her in such a case.

The reason I did not give Clare an A stat is because Rigaldo ignored her, and the only thing that every target of Rigaldo seemed to share (other then obviously being the leaders) was that they all had a A stat, thus leading Rigaldo to focus on them.

So maybe a B+, but just barely not a A.

I believe it is too hard to judge the other 3, cept maybe Cynthia, based on what we have seen of them, but I think your underrating Yuma.

My guess would be;

Yuma

Yoki: D
Agility: D
Strength: D
Mental: C
Sense: D
Leadership: C

I basically compared her stats to Elena (Clare's friend) as she IS higher ranked then Clare (technically.) So it is good to judge based on the next lowest character we know, stat wise.

I doubt any of the 7 Ghosts mental score is low either, as they have quite the strong will-power to survive in the north for 7 years, while training to increase their strength.
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Old 2007-10-16, 09:41   Link #31
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Just going by org evaluations before the time skip. Leadership C for Yuma is definitely too high, since all she does is follow. She froze before the first AB she saw too, so if we take snapshots of them during the northern war, she has no iron mental either, D at max, imho.

Then again, as Miria said, the 24 sent in Pieta were all better off dead for the organisation, so what was Yuma's offense? (I could go with Cynthia being too cunning and Tabitha knowing too much, but what did Yuma pull to get sacked?)

About Clare, after killing Ligardes, before the timeskip, Pris sees two strong lights, way stronger than the others, that I assume are Miria and Clare, that's why I would put Miria and Clare at at least A+ for Yoki
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Old 2007-10-16, 10:00   Link #32
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All this talk of stats has me wanting to stat the ladies out via the RPG, Mutants and Masterminds 2nd edition books. anyone else familiar with the system? I think the Claymore world would rock as a rpg setting
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Old 2007-10-16, 10:43   Link #33
azurie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flar View Post
Just going by org evaluations before the time skip. Leadership C for Yuma is definitely too high, since all she does is follow. She froze before the first AB she saw too, so if we take snapshots of them during the northern war, she has no iron mental either, D at max, imho.

Then again, as Miria said, the 24 sent in Pieta were all better off dead for the organisation, so what was Yuma's offense? (I could go with Cynthia being too cunning and Tabitha knowing too much, but what did Yuma pull to get sacked?)

About Clare, after killing Ligardes, before the timeskip, Pris sees two strong lights, way stronger than the others, that I assume are Miria and Clare, that's why I would put Miria and Clare at at least A+ for Yoki
Clare's yoki fluxuates to much can go from a low rank to almost AO rank as you have seen so putting her to stats is almost impossible with any of the stats but for leadership and even then she has shown at time she possess some rather good leadership skills when she so wants it's a matter of WANTING to it seems. i get the feeling that she will begin to pull more and more from Terresa's flesh and power as time goes on and learn more from it and how to control it even better.

One thing i have noticed with Clare though is she seems to be a collector not just of body parts but yoki based skills as well. Look at the flash sword as one example. Sure it's hard to learn but one would have thought just from what Irene said it would be nearly impossible for Clare with her mentality to learn it. And when she was in the witches maw arc she very quickly picked up in part Galatea's skill to a point to turn back Jean. So it seems she can to a limited degree absorb skills she sees or feels.

Any's opinions and thoughts? i welcome feedback.
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Old 2007-10-16, 11:10   Link #34
Fenrir_valindri
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Originally Posted by Flar View Post
Just going by org evaluations before the time skip. Leadership C for Yuma is definitely too high, since all she does is follow. She froze before the first AB she saw too, so if we take snapshots of them during the northern war, she has no iron mental either, D at max, imho.
I really do not think so, just because she got scared does not mean that she has a low mental score, Irene was scared and she has one of the highest mental scores in the series, at least Yuma is still willing to fight even after going through such an ordeal, and she does not go berserk at the drop of a hat like Clare does.

I gave her a C in leadership because Elena had one too, and she was obviously low-ranked as well, we don't see Yuma leading because well, everyone else is higher ranked then her, cept for Clare, who does not even listen to Miria that often.


Quote:
Then again, as Miria said, the 24 sent in Pieta were all better off dead for the organisation, so what was Yuma's offense? (I could go with Cynthia being too cunning and Tabitha knowing too much, but what did Yuma pull to get sacked?)
The 24 sent to Pieta were either trouble-makers or expendable, so my guess is a vast majority, including Cynthia and Tabitha, were just that, expendable.


Quote:
About Clare, after killing Ligardes, before the timeskip, Pris sees two strong lights, way stronger than the others, that I assume are Miria and Clare, that's why I would put Miria and Clare at at least A+ for Yoki

Yes, but we are talking pre-Rigaldo here, I would not be so quick to stick Miria and Clare's Yoki at A+; that would be at noob Priscilla level.
I would be more willing to stick them in the A catagory though, simliar to Irene and Galatea

----------------


Quote:
Clare's yoki fluxuates to much can go from a low rank to almost AO rank as you have seen so putting her to stats is almost impossible with any of the stats but for leadership and even then she has shown at time she possess some rather good leadership skills when she so wants it's a matter of WANTING to it seems. i get the feeling that she will begin to pull more and more from Terresa's flesh and power as time goes on and learn more from it and how to control it even better.
Her Yoki does flux quite a bit, so it is impossible to accurately gauge her abilities, but she only goes to almost AO rank when she did the awakened limb thing.

I do not really think she has good leadership skills based on what we have seen, she is prone to independent action and is hot-headed, just because she had an idea (that was full of holes) and it worked does not mean she has even decent leadership skills, it helps that Jean was more then willing to help her out (with the whole wookie-lifedebt thing.)

Every time she partially awakens I get the feeling she becomes more and more compatible with the Yoma that was inside Teresa. So I believe she is becoming stronger and stronger every time she goes over her limit.

Quote:
One thing i have noticed with Clare though is she seems to be a collector not just of body parts but yoki based skills as well. Look at the flash sword as one example. Sure it's hard to learn but one would have thought just from what Irene said it would be nearly impossible for Clare with her mentality to learn it. And when she was in the witches maw arc she very quickly picked up in part Galatea's skill to a point to turn back Jean. So it seems she can to a limited degree absorb skills she sees or feels.
Not really; she was not suited to the flash-sword, so she needed Irene's (much more compatible) arm in order to use it properly. Galatea's skill was also closely linked with Clare's own, so it is not much of a suprise that she can do a half-assed version of Galatea's skill, especially when her target is going along with her, hell even Jean managed to pull it off later. I believe Clare is just a quick learner, everything she has picked up has been related to her normal skill-set or she has had help. (AKA Irene's arm)
Later the Windcutter was achievable because of the latent ability in Irene's arm as well.
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Old 2007-10-16, 11:14   Link #35
azurie
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i see your points and will conceed to many of them but here's something to consider

Galatea's ability to tweak yoki is that a learned skill or something from the yoma flesh she aquired? it's not something we ever learned so who really knows. Terresa sure never showed she has such a skill or for that matter that she was that generation's eye. Just leaves more questions than answers i guess.
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Old 2007-10-16, 11:24   Link #36
Flar
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Originally Posted by azurie View Post
One thing i have noticed with Clare though is she seems to be a collector not just of body parts but yoki based skills as well. Look at the flash sword as one example. Sure it's hard to learn but one would have thought just from what Irene said it would be nearly impossible for Clare with her mentality to learn it. And when she was in the witches maw arc she very quickly picked up in part Galatea's skill to a point to turn back Jean. So it seems she can to a limited degree absorb skills she sees or feels.
I don't know. She starts off with Yoki reading as her strong point, but that's hardly a "technique", merely a specialisation and good use of her senses. You could hardly say that the two Claymores sent with Irena for Teresa's head had Strength and Agility techniques, just that they were specialized in it.

The same way, all Claymores will probably specialize one way or another, but techniques are not limited. Helen picked up Jean's strong blow for example, and Tabitha probably became a Galatea bis.

The way the mangaka weaves his story, Miria is midfielder/captain, with speed and tactics but low power, when Clare and Helen are forwards hard hitters. Deneve is defense, Tabitha manager, Cynthia the second defenser and Yuma the ball.
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Old 2007-10-16, 11:26   Link #37
azurie
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what exactly is Yuma's nich? haven't seen her fight or anything
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Old 2007-10-16, 11:29   Link #38
dee32
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So after the timeskip is it possible for Mira leadership= S.
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Old 2007-10-16, 11:31   Link #39
azurie
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yanno that's a good question specially since she is the one who got them all out of that sticky sitiation. BUT!! how did they aquire the pills?? clare maybe?
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Old 2007-10-16, 11:38   Link #40
Fenrir_valindri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flar View Post
I don't know. She starts off with Yoki reading as her strong point, but that's hardly a "technique", merely a specialisation and good use of her senses. You could hardly say that the two Claymores sent with Irena for Teresa's head had Strength and Agility techniques, just that they were specialized in it.

The same way, all Claymores will probably specialize one way or another, but techniques are not limited. Helen picked up Jean's strong blow for example, and Tabitha probably became a Galatea bis.

The way the mangaka weaves his story, Miria is midfielder/captain, with speed and tactics but low power, when Clare and Helen are forwards hard hitters. Deneve is defense, Tabitha manager, Cynthia the second defenser and Yuma the ball.
Her Yoki-manipulation is probably something that derived from her Yoki-sensing, similiar to how Teresa used her close-in Yoki-sensing skills as a sort of "danger-sense." I would guess it is a learned ability, like the flash-sword, but only those who are "built" for it can use it as well as Galatea, (AKA the AB in the North who could manipulate Yoki.)

Helen's flexible arms are probably what allowed her to pick of Jean's simliar, yet different, skill. While Tabitha always had talent in that department, but was over-shadowed by people like Galatea.

I would say Miria is the All-rounder, she can perform whatever roll she needs to in battle, and she can attack at sudden and unexpected speeds, she is quick with thinking on her feet as well, not to mention her phantom ability can confuse the crap out of those caught un-aware.

Helen would be a Shock-trooper as her abilities allow her to attack from unexpected angles at unexpected ranges, and with alot of power now with Jean's technique.

Clare is definatly a front-liner, with her Yoki-sensing allowing her to avoid the worst of attacks, and her Windcutter giving her an offensive punch.

Deneve is definatly a tank/front-liner, she can take hits and it is obvious that she has focused on her strength a bit with the two-sword style that she picked up from Undine.

Cynthia is probably a all-rounder like Miria, but to a much lesser degree, as she has many of the same qualities that Miria has, but she is also a defensive type, so where Miria is more focused on speed, she is more focused on toughness.

Tabitha is the advanced warning and is probably on over-watch duty to ensure that people do not get suprised by an unexpected attack, as she has the longest range out of the 7 ghosts, she likely only invovles herself heavily in battle when they need the extra power, or when it is safe for her to do so.

Yuma is likely the filler/clean-up, she is the weakest of the bunch but she is an extra body that the enemy has to worry about, and having so many people attacking you at once could make it difficult to defend against even Yuma.
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