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Old 2007-10-18, 13:48   Link #81
Gooral
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I put restrain on myself to not argue about Priscilla vs Teresa anymore so I will only write that on that matter I agree with khryoleoz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_Valindri
Let me rephrase that, partially awakening is unnatural potential when Priscilla awakened she unleashed all her natural potential and went from a A+ Yoki to EX, which is higher then anything else in the series.
I agree with Fate_Archer on that. To me potential is potential, there is no such thing as unnatural potential unless someone is becoming a cyborg (read: when someone is changing his original body). As we know when humans become claymores it's the end, they don't have upgrades.
Partial awakening is just great training method to polish skills and perfect youki managing, IMO. So if Clare awakened in Rabona she would propably be almost or as powerful when she fought Riguald but she would spend more of her time on seeking guts than training and she would be on MiB and Riful's wanted list so her survival and further growth would be difficult . It's hard to imagine of course that someone as weak as her could become as powerful then but I don't see why would that be unlikely.
Riful's comment and behaviour might be just a smart move to let them go loose and allow them to train themselves better. She saw that they were quite flexible warriors since they quickly adapted to tough situation, Clare managed to improve her quicksword which startled Riful, Jean managed to return from awakened state and Galatea... Galatea was superb as always .
I don't think that when they would be in awakened state with Riful, she would spend time to train and protect them. In claymore state they could hide their youki well, MiB theoretically should protect them or at least not bother them and improving their stats should be easier. On the other hand in awakened state MiB might hunt them down and their only training might be killing humans and one time they would face Isley's force - the end. So what Riful meant was that by forcing them to awaken would led only to having pawns instead of queens they could become (chess analogy). At first pawns are the weakest but after proper moves when they reach the eighth/first rank (which is called promotion) not sacrificing them might decide the win of the game.
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Old 2007-10-18, 14:09   Link #82
Fenrir_valindri
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Originally Posted by khryoleoz View Post
What the scene shows is that Ordsay (the handler and person closest to her) is dubious about what Teresa explained as what happened to her. That is far from "knowing", and how can they when she's keeping it a secret. Anything they would know would be vague and incomplete.
Having a "vague" idea that Teresa defeated a Awakened former #1 would undoubtedly lead to an investigation, which would in turn bring up a dead Awakened #2's body.

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It's enough only when the situation requires the reading of yoki flow. But that's why I deny those stats of Teresa's and privately believe they're higher. I've a vested interest in that being a stubborn Teresa fanatic.
that goes without saying, but if Teresa's stats were much higher, I don't think it was by much.

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I don't get this one. Was Priscilla keeping her potential a secret from anyone too? If the org knew of her latent potential well, then they'd probably be able to closely estimate her levels as an AB.
I think it is more along the lines that no one knew Priscilla's full potential, because she never used Yoki, and was good at hiding it.

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We do know that the plan ended in failure. I'm saying that it was inevitable because of two factors they did not or could not predict: 1) Teresa was much much better than they anticipated even in a surprise attack, 2) Priscilla was not as reliable and actually became an even worse threat.
Teresa was indeed more troublesome then predicted, but Irene knew Teresa would not be defeat-able without Priscilla; thus the Priscilla stealth plan was born, and Priscilla's self-righteousness led to that plan's failure. If Priscilla had followed the plan, Teresa would have had a sword through her before the fight had even truly started.

---------------------------

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I put restrain on myself to not argue about Priscilla vs Teresa anymore so I will only write that on that matter I agree with khryoleoz.
A pity.

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I agree with Fate_Archer on that. To me potential is potential, there is no such thing as unnatural potential unless someone is becoming a cyborg (read: when someone is changing his original body). As we know when humans become claymores it's the end, they don't have upgrades.
If we were to put it in game terms, it would be called cheating. They do something which no one else is able to do, and it makes them far stronger then there otherwise limited potential would allow. That is the reason that Helen and Deneve can match a low single digit with there strength despite there rank, and Clare could hold her own amazingly well against a psychotic #4. They basically function outside the normal rules set in place for other characters.

Thus unnatural potential.

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Partial awakening is just great training method to polish skills and perfect youki managing, IMO. So if Clare awakened in Rabona she would probably be almost or as powerful when she fought Riguald but she would spend more of her time on seeking guts than training and she would be on MiB and Riful's wanted list so her survival and further growth would be difficult . It's hard to imagine of course that someone as weak as her could become as powerful then but I don't see why would that be unlikely.
Partially-awakening is not a training method at all, it is a freak occurrence that dramatically increases the power of the said partially-awakened warrior.

If she had awoken, that would be it, the end, her advancement would only come in the form of experience, not physical increases in power and Yoki.

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Riful's comment and behaviour might be just a smart move to let them go loose and allow them to train themselves better. She saw that they were quite flexible warriors since they quickly adapted to tough situation, Clare managed to improve her quicksword which startled Riful, Jean managed to return from awakened state and Galatea... Galatea was superb as always .
Riful's comments and behavior show us that the partial-awakened phenomena is something she has never seen before, and she quickly gathers that it gives them a unique advantage that allows them to, in the end, become more powerful ABs then normal. She never even mentioned Galatea when referring to getting stronger and becoming a stronger AB.

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I don't think that when they would be in awakened state with Riful, she would spend time to train and protect them. In claymore state they could hide their youki well, MiB theoretically should protect them or at least not bother them and improving their stats should be easier. On the other hand in awakened state MiB might hunt them down and their only training might be killing humans and one time they would face Isley's force - the end. So what Riful meant was that by forcing them to awaken would led only to having pawns instead of queens they could become (chess analogy). At first pawns are the weakest but after proper moves when they reach the eighth/first rank (which is called promotion) not sacrificing them might decide the win of the game.
Riful would not bother training them, as she knows it is, in a way, an evolutionary dead end.

If they awaken then cannot get stronger anymore, so it would be a waste to force 2 interesting science projects to awaken when they could potentially grow stronger. I also doubt Riful would enjoy having any potential rivals in power, as it would threaten her own standing as " The Queen."
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Old 2007-10-18, 14:31   Link #83
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Why is it that the word of a professional liar whose job is to avoid creating or kill Awakened Beings has more credit than the one of an Abyssal one who is older, doesn't lie and has tremendous experience in creating and interacting with a multitude of Awakened Beings?

As for potential, I think it can change. Something like: Heat a metal bar and stretch it, it has a limit beyond which it breaks, but stop stretching a bit before it breaks, hammer it, cool it and then do it again, and you can go further than the original breakpoint.
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Old 2007-10-18, 14:33   Link #84
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im not exactly sure about these stats, did the author actually grade the characters himself. it is very weird that alicia and beth are more powerful than teresa...that is so hard to accept.
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Old 2007-10-18, 14:38   Link #85
Sassarai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flar View Post

As for potential, I think it can change. Something like: Heat a metal bar and stretch it, it has a limit beyond which it breaks, but stop stretching a bit before it breaks, hammer it, cool it and then do it again, and you can go further than the original breakpoint.
Would that be considered changing the potential or not going to the fullest potential yet?
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Old 2007-10-18, 14:45   Link #86
Flar
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Originally Posted by Sassarai View Post
Would that be considered changing the potential or not going to the fullest potential yet?
I don't know. It certainly means that you go to the maximum each time you awaken, only that maximum changes each time too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by romulusx5
im not exactly sure about these stats, did the author actually grade the characters himself. it is very weird that alicia and beth are more powerful than teresa...that is so hard to accept.
It's stats given by an unreliable narrator, not the author, so they only reflect what is apparent in story. Teresa was probably more powerful than the org gives her credit for, she was actively lying to her MiB (see ES1). Also, special techniques are not reflected by stats.
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Old 2007-10-18, 14:50   Link #87
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I would think the maximun potential is being fully awakened and you cant go beyond that. The more closer you get to becomming awakened, the more you tap into those fully awakened powers maybe. I just think theres a limit to it rather then going on forever.

Just like how you can keep stretching the metal bar there IS a limit to how much it can be stretch. Well you can increase its potential if you add more metal I guess but that cant be done with humans/yomas unless youre a mad scientist or maybe the organization through experiements. I just dont believe you can have unlimited power ups just simply by awakening everytime. THAT WOULD BE TOO FAKE FOR A FICTIONAL STORY!

Last edited by Sassarai; 2007-10-18 at 15:05.
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Old 2007-10-18, 15:05   Link #88
Fenrir_valindri
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Originally Posted by Flar View Post
Why is it that the word of a professional liar whose job is to avoid creating or kill Awakened Beings has more credit than the one of an Abyssal one who is older, doesn't lie and has tremendous experience in creating and interacting with a multitude of Awakened Beings?
I am not saying he is more credible, just that he may not be lying either, no one in the Organization understands what the partial-awakening actually does, and Riful herself has never seen it, what we have is a group of people who do not apply to the standered set of "rules" that everyone is used to.

Quote:
As for potential, I think it can change. Something like: Heat a metal bar and stretch it, it has a limit beyond which it breaks, but stop stretching a bit before it breaks, hammer it, cool it and then do it again, and you can go further than the original breakpoint.
As Sassarai said, you can only stretch it so far, that is what potential is after all, but what the Partially-awakening does (potentially) is add more metal onto the end of that bar, allowing it to stretch further.

Whether this goes on indefinatly remains to be seen.

The Organization is also far more reliable then we probably give them credit for, only Teresa and Priscilla are real trouble spots when concerning their stats.
All the other ones in question are the partially-awakened.
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Old 2007-10-18, 15:11   Link #89
Sassarai
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Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
As Sassarai said, you can only stretch it so far, that is what potential is after all, but what the Partially-awakening does (potentially) is add more metal onto the end of that bar, allowing it to stretch further.

I look at partial awakening as reheating and stretching the metal further while adding metal would be something the organization does with its weird experiements -_-.
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Old 2007-10-18, 15:40   Link #90
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Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
Having a "vague" idea that Teresa defeated a Awakened former #1 would undoubtedly lead to an investigation, which would in turn bring up a dead Awakened #2's body.
Thanks. You've just characterized Teresa as among the stupidest of people who would try to purport a deception w/out discarding any evidence that would incriminate her upon forensic analysis. I thought you said you liked this character?


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that goes without saying, but if Teresa's stats were much higher, I don't think it was by much.
We'll just have to disagree there. You reveal you don't like her anyway. =P

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I think it is more along the lines that no one knew Priscilla's full potential, because she never used Yoki, and was good at hiding it.
We can't assume that she has never ever used Yoki such that the Org was just as ignorant about her as about Teresa. We've only seen how good she could hide it.


Quote:
Teresa was indeed more troublesome then predicted, but Irene knew Teresa would not be defeat-able without Priscilla; thus the Priscilla stealth plan was born, and Priscilla's self-righteousness led to that plan's failure. If Priscilla had followed the plan, Teresa would have had a sword through her before the fight had even truly started.
No way! She would have seen it coming. She didn't need Yoki sensing to fight off Priscilla pre-yoki release.

Quote:
If we were to put it in game terms, it would be called cheating. They do something which no one else is able to do, and it makes them far stronger then there otherwise limited potential would allow. That is the reason that Helen and Deneve can match a low single digit with there strength despite there rank, and Clare could hold her own amazingly well against a psychotic #4. They basically function outside the normal rules set in place for other characters.

Thus unnatural potential.
Then let's define what we're talking about. Semi-awakening is cheating, which has its own potential different from those who aren't "cheating". But with regard to their ontology, a Claymore is a human/yoma hybrid, whether unawakened, semi, or fully. The differences between ABs and Claymores are not the physical ontology, but consciousness and the relative exertion of power. At least this is the thinking I follow. A Claymore is n% of a fully awakened human/yoma hybrid. The awakening phenomenon from what we've seen is the extension of that threshold in which the hybrid can supress the yoki and thus maintain a human consciousness. We haven't seen any SS phenomena yet.


Quote:
Partially-awakening is not a training method at all, it is a freak occurrence that dramatically increases the power of the said partially-awakened warrior.

If she had awoken, that would be it, the end, her advancement would only come in the form of experience, not physical increases in power and Yoki.
Fault Gooral for a misnomer, but his idea stands valid.


Quote:
Riful's comments and behavior show us that the partial-awakened phenomena is something she has never seen before, and she quickly gathers that it gives them a unique advantage that allows them to, in the end, become more powerful ABs then normal. She never even mentioned Galatea when referring to getting stronger and becoming a stronger AB.
She makes such an observation, but that doesn't mean it's not flawed. She is seeing the semi-awakening for the first time, which dampens her credibility to make authoritative statements about it. While she can be right about the advantages of extending one's limits (which is really a threshold), she can be wrong about getting a stronger AB out of one.


Quote:
If they awaken then cannot get stronger anymore, so it would be a waste to force 2 interesting science projects to awaken when they could potentially grow stronger. I also doubt Riful would enjoy having any potential rivals in power, as it would threaten her own standing as " The Queen."
Goes to show how ignorant she is for asking the inheritor of the strongest number 1 in history (well, this by my standards only of course) to be her point man.
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Old 2007-10-18, 15:41   Link #91
Gooral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri
If they awaken then cannot get stronger anymore, so it would be a waste to force 2 interesting science projects to awaken when they could potentially grow stronger. I also doubt Riful would enjoy having any potential rivals in power, as it would threaten her own standing as " The Queen."
I wouldn't be so sure about that (unless You meant only youki level). As for Riful, I think that she has never considered Clare, Galatea or Jean as a threat, she was so overwhelmingly stronger and she could sense their youki level quite well (only Clare is special and her power is still a mystery) so allowing them to grow wouldn't threaten her (or so she thought).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flar View Post
As for potential, I think it can change. Something like: Heat a metal bar and stretch it, it has a limit beyond which it breaks, but stop stretching a bit before it breaks, hammer it, cool it and then do it again, and you can go further than the original breakpoint.
"Quench" is like training and potential isn't changing it's "potential" because it's still steel - it just reached maximum of it's toughness after receiving special treatment. You can't quench steel more than once (I think, I'm not physicist). If sth doesn't have "potential" than quenching won't work. When someone is improving his skills then it means he hasn't reached his peak yet, not that he awakened his hidden unnatural potential or he somehow "gained potential".
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Old 2007-10-18, 15:42   Link #92
Tempest35
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Holy... this thread's not even a week old...

As for Alicia and Beth being stronger than Teresa base stat-wise...I believe that being groomed from day 1 to become the strongest evah might play a part in that. The two were brought to the Org to continue that one particular experiment and as we all know, it works like a charm.
Now, for Alicia to completely Awaken like she does, she would have had to go through partial Awakenings beforehand would she not? Jumping straight into controlling a fully Awakened one is pure suicide. If what we've seen of our Ghost 7, particularly our Fab 4, is true, then the Partial Awakenings would have pushed Alicia's power cap through the roof.

If one's power increased at say...10% of their base power to begin with, half a dozen Awakenings would really push the power pretty high. Teresa didn't even like using her Youki and she was that strong, for someone who was nearly as strong to go through partial Awakenings as a part of training.... ....

There's no real sense in arguing if the stats are 'right' or 'wrong' - they're pretty much official and coincidently, the best source we got for comparisions between the Claymores. As for the timeframes that they apply for, we don't really know that. Also, any and all special techniques/abilities are reflected by the stats pretty accurately. If one thinks that someone's technique or ability is stronger than what the stats suggest, it's probably one's own interpetation of what that ability/technique is and how strong it is on an overall scale. Don't use one instance or fight to accurately judge just how powerful something is like say Galatea's youki trick against Duff/Daph/whatever. Like the Awakened in Pieta, he showed just HOW strong that trick could be if Galatea was more powerful so in reality, Galatea's technique is really just a trick while the Awakened one's version could be and should be called an actual technique.

...as for Miria, you know she'd try to get us to work together Fenris. I can see her lecturing about putting all that energy into learning how to fight off youma...and like the poor saps (ie devoted followers) we are, we'd jump at the chance to train up to that. Trained by her, of course.

Helen: Ah, I found some leashes that might work! Here ya go Miria! ^_^

Miria: ...Helen...!! ><

Me: ... as much as I want to say something in defense of myself, I can not.
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Old 2007-10-18, 15:56   Link #93
Sassarai
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I'm gonna get you on palgerism one of these days gooral /laughs
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Old 2007-10-18, 16:37   Link #94
BrokenWingz
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Originally Posted by Tempest35 View Post
Now, for Alicia to completely Awaken like she does, she would have had to go through partial Awakenings beforehand would she not? Jumping straight into controlling a fully Awakened one is pure suicide. If what we've seen of our Ghost 7, particularly our Fab 4, is true, then the Partial Awakenings would have pushed Alicia's power cap through the roof.
Mmm, thing that contridicts this according to those stats are that Alicia / Beth's stat are suppose to be the same, so either Beth is also a partially awakened or those stats don't hold to much weight or even that soul linking mean powering up at the same time! xD
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Old 2007-10-18, 17:08   Link #95
Tempest35
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Well, it can be similar but they can't be the same since Beth has to stay put in order for Alicia to do her thing. Alicia's officially the #1 which means that by all rights her base stats SHOULD be higher than Beth's. Even by wee bit in one area. ^^
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Old 2007-10-18, 17:09   Link #96
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however since their twins they would be the same both sharing the exact same stats just one holding a more combative role over the other. IMO
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Old 2007-10-18, 17:10   Link #97
Sassarai
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Originally Posted by khryoleoz View Post
No way! She would have seen it coming. She didn't need Yoki sensing to fight off Priscilla pre-yoki release.

Nah Teresa herself said that prissy could of wounded her during that sneak attack. I believe she could of wounded teresa(insert assumption) but not to the point of it being deadly(end assumption) and then she would just continue owning those 4 since she knows what prissy is capable of. Like they keep saying in that one anime "The same attack wont work twice on Athena's saint!"
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Old 2007-10-18, 18:17   Link #98
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Bah my Internet died while replying, so now I have to retype everything >.<


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Originally Posted by khryoleoz View Post
Thanks. You've just characterized Teresa as among the stupidest of people who would try to purport a deception w/out discarding any evidence that would incriminate her upon forensic analysis. I thought you said you liked this character?
Stupid how? She cannot really do anything to cover her tracks, and her excuse was flimsy at best. What is she going to do? Hide the body? It is not like they could not find the remains and (easily) guess what happened.

and I do like Teresa, what I do not like is blind Teresa fanboyism, so I must toughen my skin and argue the reaper as it were.

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We'll just have to disagree there. You reveal you don't like her anyway. =P
You can say what you like, but Teresa will always be one of my favorite characters, her arc is what made me love Claymore.

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We can't assume that she has never ever used Yoki such that the Org was just as ignorant about her as about Teresa. We've only seen how good she could hide it.
True we cannot just assume that she never did, but we cannot ignore it as a possibility either, otherwise Teresa would have never gotten away with hiding her power either.

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No way! She would have seen it coming. She didn't need Yoki sensing to fight off Priscilla pre-yoki release.
Teresa herself admitted that Priscilla could have gotten her, so I think I will stick with what Teresa said.

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Then let's define what we're talking about. Semi-awakening is cheating, which has its own potential different from those who aren't "cheating". But with regard to their ontology, a Claymore is a human/yoma hybrid, whether unawakened, semi, or fully. The differences between ABs and Claymores are not the physical ontology, but consciousness and the relative exertion of power. At least this is the thinking I follow. A Claymore is n% of a fully awakened human/yoma hybrid. The awakening phenomenon from what we've seen is the extension of that threshold in which the hybrid can suppress the yoki and thus maintain a human consciousness. We haven't seen any SS phenomena yet.
The problem is, we do not really know what lies in actually being a hybrid. Is the reason some are weak and others are strong because of compatibility, if training is all one requires, then why aren't all Claymores stronger then they are right now?

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Fault Gooral for a misnomer, but his idea stands valid.
As does mine.


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She makes such an observation, but that doesn't mean it's not flawed. She is seeing the semi-awakening for the first time, which dampens her credibility to make authoritative statements about it. While she can be right about the advantages of extending one's limits (which is really a threshold), she can be wrong about getting a stronger AB out of one.
True enough, but many are basing this entire argument on what Riful stated as well, so if we discount Riful's word, then we have no where to go with this entire thing
From what we have seen however, Riful may indeed be correct.

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Goes to show how ignorant she is for asking the inheritor of the strongest number 1 in history (well, this by my standards only of course) to be her point man.
Indeed, she is not omniscient, but then again, neither was Teresa.

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I wouldn't be so sure about that (unless You meant only youki level). As for Riful, I think that she has never considered Clare, Galatea or Jean as a threat, she was so overwhelmingly stronger and she could sense their youki level quite well (only Clare is special and her power is still a mystery) so allowing them to grow wouldn't threaten her (or so she thought).
I did primarily mean their Yoki level, although I do think physically as well, they can always become wiser and more experienced, but there natural power will not change, although their control over it may improve.

I also agree that Riful probably never foresaw Clare becoming strong enough to threaten her. I am just saying, if she had thought it possible, she definitely would not approve.

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"Quench" is like training and potential isn't changing it's "potential" because it's still steel - it just reached maximum of it's toughness after receiving special treatment. You can't quench steel more than once (I think, I'm not physicist). If sth doesn't have "potential" than quenching won't work. When someone is improving his skills then it means he hasn't reached his peak yet, not that he awakened his hidden unnatural potential or he somehow "gained potential".
I understand quite well what you are saying here, let me try to translate my thoughts for you.

Normal Warriors have potential, they can achieve this potential with time, training, and experience. However this potential has a limit (as all things do)

When a Warrior Awakenes all this potential is immediately realized, and quite possibly exceeded. Awakend warriors can gain experience, but cannot improve their base physical power, or Yoki.

Now a Partially-awakened warrior has gained power that is not achievable through time, training, and experience. It is equivalent to a human gaining super-human abilities, and if they awaken later in their lifetime, this power stacks on top of their "normal" potential. This potential is only limited by the number of times the warrior has surpassed her limit.

Thus I believe that Partially-awakened "cheat" per-say, as they gain power that non-partially awakened have no access to.

I also believe this will eventually lead to how Clare can defeat Priscilla, who is currently the strongest being in the Claymore-verse.

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Nah Teresa herself said that prissy could of wounded her during that sneak attack. I believe she could of wounded teresa(insert assumption) but not to the point of it being deadly(end assumption) and then she would just continue owning those 4 since she knows what prissy is capable of. Like they keep saying in that one anime "The same attack wont work twice on Athena's saint!"
Hehe glad you pointed out that it is an assumption, it really could have gone either way, Teresa could have died instantly, or could have only been wounded enough to force herself to use Yoki to pwnzerize the pre-fab 4.

Shame you theory did not go through though, because Teresa would not have been caught off guard by Priscilla's final attack.
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Old 2007-10-18, 18:34   Link #99
Sassarai
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Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post


Hehe glad you pointed out that it is an assumption, it really could have gone either way, Teresa could have died instantly, or could have only been wounded enough to force herself to use Yoki to pwnzerize the pre-fab 4.

Shame you theory did not go through though, because Teresa would not have been caught off guard by Priscilla's final attack.


Yea almost everything here is based on assumptions. It can go either way really on almost all of the arguments.


It wasnt quite the same attack. You cant compare her almost awakening to the same speed as the earlier attack.
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Old 2007-10-18, 18:43   Link #100
Fenrir_valindri
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Originally Posted by Sassarai View Post
Yea almost everything here is based on assumptions. It can go either way really on almost all of the arguments.


It wasnt quite the same attack. You cant compare her almost awakening to the same speed as the earlier attack.
I suppose, but you should take my generosity when I give it.

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...as for Miria, you know she'd try to get us to work together Fenris. I can see her lecturing about putting all that energy into learning how to fight off youma...and like the poor saps (ie devoted followers) we are, we'd jump at the chance to train up to that. Trained by her, of course.

Helen: Ah, I found some leashes that might work! Here ya go Miria! ^_^

Miria: ...Helen...!! ><

Me: ... as much as I want to say something in defense of myself, I can not.
Heh, I would respond this way:

Me: HEY!...I don't need that... I have no reason to run away. Now a collar on the other hand...(if it was to designate me as Miria's property...)

Regardless, none of that would stop me from getting her attention first Tempest
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