Clannad - Episode 3 Discussion / Poll

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by iamandragon

Kyou is a really the most powerful character, more to be seen later in the show. (Note: this opinion is completely biased since I like Kyou but not Tomoyo)

Yes your opinion is very biased, since it's canon material that Tomoyo is stronger than Kyou in just about every way. Tomoyo is more atheletic, smarter, much harder working, more self-sacraficing for others, and even her bust size is larger. What Kyou has going for her is her sense of humor and that she's a tsundere which I guess is the current most popular fad, Tomoyo otoh doesn't fluster in expressing her affection, she's very much a no-nonsense person. What's more

Spoiler:

Tomoyo also possesses the motherly quality. Except she's the opposite of Nagisa in this case - while Nagisa is the warm, gentle type, Tomoyo otoh represents the strict and desciplined side of a parent. She also got Tomoya to face his situation with his dad, which is 100x more important than anything Kyou has done.

Originally Posted by Zaris

Either KyoAni didn't make the implications very clear cut, the fansubbers I followed didn't explain it well enough, or I need to take a make up class in Japanese culture.

I advice on the third option.

The question is already answered - no parents will call their child with the suffix -kun in an affectionate way. Outside of the girl calling an unfamiliar boy situation, culturally it's a suffix that is used to address people of a lower rank - like a boss to his subordinates, or a teacher to his students.

[Nightengale]

It's worse for Tomoya too.

The thing is, he calls him "Tomoya" and not "Okazaki", which means he's not acting like a total stranger. But at the same time, "Tomoya-kun" in the way he's speaking means that he's not treating their situation like father to son.

It's neither ignorance nor love (( from Tomoya's POV )) and it's probably painful for him. I don't know about Tomoya, but my friend too once got severely injured by his father when he tried to stop their parent's quarrel, resulting in a scar over his face. The result of that, was...distance that wasn't distance. Even though my friend tried to restore their relationship, the father tried to avoid, and acted like "Oh, you're okay... that's good. Bye." manner, which saddened my friend greatly. They live together, but the father pretty much 'leaves early and comes back extremely late', not wanting to see anyone. It was only a few years ago that they managed to patch things back together after like 2 years.

I don't even want to know how he feels. My friend tried to do what he felt was best (( and got himself injured )), but somehow made things worse for them both. The father didn't help by playing "ghost father" and evading contact even though they bloody stayed in the same house. He told me, at least when the parents argued occasionally, they still felt like a family. Those 2 years however... they were like strangers.

From what I see, they're both probably doing what they feel is best for the other party in a middle ground manner, but due to their disconnection, it ends up worse for them both.

Pure speculation here.

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

Yes your opinion is very biased, since it's canon material that Tomoyo is stronger than Kyou in just about every way. Tomoyo is more atheletic, smarter, much harder working, more self-sacraficing for others, and even her bust size is larger. What Kyou has going for her is her sense of humor and that she's a tsundere which I guess is the current most popular fad, Tomoyo otoh doesn't fluster in expressing her affection, she's very much a no-nonsense person. What's more

Spoiler:

Tomoyo also possesses the motherly quality. Except she's the opposite of Nagisa in this case - while Nagisa is the warm, gentle type, Tomoyo otoh represents the strict and desciplined side of a parent. She also got Tomoya to face his situation with his dad, which is 100x more important than anything Kyou has done.

Kyou's not a Tsundere character, she's just plain wild...

[orion]

Originally Posted by tabun

Spoiler for @Nightengale & Ascaloth:

A definitive TRUE END at this early stage could mean anything, from a fond relation of friendship to a slowly evolving romance to Nagisa fading away due to her weak body.
Of course I know that you seem to know the game's ending, Nightengale, but still that says nothing of the developments displayed during the oncoming episodes. It is futile to always stare at the ending and hope for one in your favour.
In the end, if you just suffer through a show without enjoying it, you might as well drop it altogether!

But....

Spoiler for @Nightengale & Ascaloth:

The game players are seeing it in the OP animation with every episode which is perhaps another way for KyoAni to assure them that Clannad will be faithful to the game imo. This is totally different from what was done for Kanon 2k6 imo.

I like Kyou more than Tomoyo at this point.

[Kang Seung Jae]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

The question is already answered - no parents will call their child with the suffix -kun in an affectionate way. Outside of the girl calling an unfamiliar boy situation, culturally it's a suffix that is used to address people of a lower rank - like a boss to his subordinates, or a teacher to his students.

Originally Posted by Nightengale

It's worse for Tomoya too.

The thing is, he calls him "Tomoya" and not "Okazaki", which means he's not acting like a total stranger. But at the same time, "Tomoya-kun" in the way he's speaking means that he's not treating their situation like father to son.

It's neither ignorance nor love (( from Tomoya's POV )) and it's probably painful for him. I don't know about Tomoya, but my friend too once got severely injured by his father when he tried to stop their parent's quarrel, resulting in a scar over his face. The result of that, was...distance that wasn't distance. Even though my friend tried to restore their relationship, the father tried to avoid, and acted like "Oh, you're okay... that's good. Bye." manner, which saddened my friend greatly. They live together, but the father pretty much 'leaves early and comes back extremely late', not wanting to see anyone. It was only a few years ago that they managed to patch things back together after like 2 years.

I don't even want to know how he feels. My friend tried to do what he felt was best (( and got himself injured )), but somehow made things worse for them both. The father didn't help by playing "ghost father" and evading contact even though they bloody stayed in the same house. He told me, at least when the parents argued occasionally, they still felt like a family. Those 2 years however... they were like strangers.

From what I see, they're both probably doing what they feel is best for the other party in a middle ground manner, but due to their disconnection, it ends up worse for them both.

Pure speculation here.

You guys hit the nail correctly.

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by orion

But....

Spoiler for @Nightengale & Ascaloth:

The game players are seeing it in the OP animation with every episode which is perhaps another way for KyoAni to assure them that Clannad will be faithful to the game imo. This is totally different from what was done for Kanon 2k6 imo.

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here. Mind rewording/going into details?

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by iamandragon

Kyou's not a Tsundere character, she's just plain wild...

Kyou is most definitely tsundere. I can bring up lots of examples from the game which would probably be shown later in the anime, but that's probably not a good idea here right now.

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

Kyou is most definitely tsundere. I can bring up lots of examples from the game which would probably be shown later in the anime, but that's probably not a good idea here right now.

I don't remember seeing Kyou being tsun at all. She's friendly with Tomoya since the very beginning.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by iamandragon

I don't remember seeing Kyou being tsun at all. She's friendly with Tomoya since the very beginning.

Oh, so her pulling Tomoya's tie in Episode 1, her pissed-off look at Tomoya spreading the "bi-" rumour about her in Episode 2, and her pWning of Sunohara in Episode 3 don't count?

[Tiberium Wolf]

Compared to Tomoyo's kick, which hurt more?

Man... I wanted the answer for this!

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Oh, so her pulling Tomoya's tie in Episode 1, her pissed-off look at Tomoya spreading the "bi-" rumour about her in Episode 2, and her pWning of Sunohara in Episode 3 don't count?

Also the flying dictionary, her teasing of Ryou's prediction of Tomoya's romance meeting, bike incident etc etc just in the anime alone. She is the tsundere archtype. Sure not your Shana/Nagi/Louise/Kugimiya Rie type extreme tsuntsun/deredere, but along the Tohsaka Rin type tsundere. Actually Chidori is probably closer as Rin doesn't act physically violent at all but rely on sharp words, where as Kyou most definitely does get physically violent.

I don't really want to bring this up because of the whole game thing, but Kyou's story arc's conflict is essentially due to her being tsundere. You seriously have to be conciously ignoring her entire story and character to deny that she is tsundere.

[Proto]

Wow, that was nice to know. Now breath deeply, and if you want to continue your borderful spoiler game dialog I would like to point you to this thread. Thank you for your attention.

[FireChick]

OH. MY. GOD. I just saw this an hour ago and...(bursts out laughing)OH SNAP THAT WAS SO FLIPPING HILARIOUS!!!!! OH MY FLIPPING GOD I CRIED at this episode! The dictionary just FLEW and went "POW!" on Youhei's face, and then "BEEF!" when Kyou kicked his tooshie! OH SNAP I LOVE YOU KYOU!!! You PWNED Youhei to the max!!! I LOVE THIS EPISODE!!! NUMBER ONE!!! I gotta watch it again! Botan so cute with the cute widdle puhi puhi noises! Oh no. Nagisa's in some kind of trouble!

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Oh, so her pulling Tomoya's tie in Episode 1, her pissed-off look at Tomoya spreading the "bi-" rumour about her in Episode 2, and her pWning of Sunohara in Episode 3 don't count?

That's just her going berserk, I see that as being over-friendly. Apparently Kyou and Tomoya are very close since their second year--you won't try to strangle a complete stranger won't you? It's usually your friends that you try and strangle during plays. Don't forget that Kyou is a lot like a guy...so she tends to act 'friendly' in a manly way.

Originally Posted by houkoholic

I don't really want to bring this up because of the whole game thing, but Kyou's story arc's conflict is essentially due to her being tsundere. You seriously have to be conciously ignoring her entire story and character to deny that she is tsundere.

Are you sure you've read the script carefully? Go back to the 16th of May and pay attention to what Ryou said at the end of the day. If you'd want to talk more about the game post up a topic in the game discussion.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by iamandragon

That's just her going berserk, apparently they are very close--you won't try to strangle a complete stranger won't you? It's usually your friends that you try and strangle during plays. Don't forget that Kyou acts like a lot like a guy...

Even so, that doesn't explain away the dictionary hit on Sunohara.

[Shiroth]

iamandragon: Regarding the tsundere topic, do you fully understand what one is --- and how one falls into the category? Because what we've see from Kyou so far makes her tsundere material.

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by FireChick

OH. MY. GOD. I just saw this an hour ago and...(bursts out laughing)OH SNAP THAT WAS SO FLIPPING HILARIOUS!!!!! OH MY FLIPPING GOD I CRIED at this episode! The dictionary just FLEW and went "POW!" on Youhei's face, and then "BEEF!" when Kyou kicked his tooshie! OH SNAP I LOVE YOU KYOU!!! You PWNED Youhei to the max!!! I LOVE THIS EPISODE!!! NUMBER ONE!!! I gotta watch it again! Botan so cute with the cute widdle puhi puhi noises! Oh no. Nagisa's in some kind of trouble!

These are all 'smiley moments' just for episode 3. I'll be making a collections smiley moments of each episode from now on.

Originally Posted by Shiroth

iamandragon: Regarding the tsundere topic, do you fully understand what one is --- and how one falls into the category? Because what we've see from Kyou so far makes her tsundere material.

Well this is my understanding of Tsundere at the very least...unless it has changed from ever since?

Originally Posted by kj1980

Tsundere

"tsundere," is a term used to describe girls that are cold and strict at first or in public, but becomes all lovey-dovey when they are alone together.

Reference: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...18&postcount=2

From what I see, Kyou is not strict, and not even cold--more like the complete opposite.

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by iamandragon

Well this is my understanding of Tsundere at the very least...unless it has changed from ever since?

You'd be surprised.

There's typical 2-faced tsunderes, there's character-development tsunderes, the violent-in-denial-beat-them-up types...

Put it this way.

Tsundere = Mooncake.

[Kinny Riddle]

iamandragon, how can you possibly think Kyou is not a Tsundere? Could your definition of the term be different from mine?

As someone who played through Kyou's scenario, I already get that "tsuntsun" and "deredere" feeling right off the bat, the moment she throws her various types of dictionaries at Tomoya, and then blushing and trying to defend herself everytime Tomoya catches her making a gaffe.

[Klashikari]

Strickly from the view of the Anime, i hardly can consider Kyou as a Tsundere either.
The fact she is "wild" doesn't mean she is trying to hide anything, or use a "bipolar" personality shift, whatsoever.

she "might" be the "old version" of tsundere (as being cold first to then being deredere after interactions, such like Tohsaka Rin) but that's it. Seriously, her demeanor is rather her natural behaviour, and "deredere" its any character being in love so... i think it is a bit far fetched to call her Tsundere, either with both definitions to me.

if she happens to be wild because of tomoya and goes deredere in her route, i would understand, but it is rather something she is genuinely.
I see how Imandragon is claiming this and i'm completely agreeing thus far... might be different for the game, but seriously, as how kyou is presented right now, she is brash/wild/bad mouthing a bit, but certainly not hostile and such ^^"