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Old 2007-10-23, 01:18   Link #21
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgreater1 View Post
Geh... I'm outdated as always. Anyway mind if you explain the difference between Traditional and Modern (don't really know anything about modern type tsundere) tsundere? I'm Lazy Mode right now to search for it
Traditional: The traditional tsundere is characterized as a person that is initially cold towards another person but gradually begins to thaw and show their true self.

Modern: The new, evolved version of tsundere is a person whose emotions and feelings towards a person outwardly change frequently and may display many different personalities, sometimes to the point that can be considered as bipolar.
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Old 2007-10-23, 01:30   Link #22
dgreater1
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I see, I didn't know tsundere has a traditional type... I always thought tsundere means someone who switches from tsuntsun to deredere and deredere to tsuntsun everytime...
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Old 2007-10-23, 01:34   Link #23
tabun
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As I watch my prediction from a little more than 12 hours ago come true, i wonder if this will stop eventually on it's own?

Much more than the question if and what aspect of the-term-that-shall-henceforth-not-be-mentioned fits Kyou best, I'd be much more interested in speculations about why she shows such behaviour. Apparently, she and Tomoya have known each other for quite some time, which explains their rather open relationship. Still, why should she (who is shown to have quite the personality) shy away from telling Tomoya directly? Do you think she (as a character) might not be too certain of her feelings towards him?
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Old 2007-10-23, 01:37   Link #24
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tabun View Post
As I watch my prediction from a little more than 12 hours ago come true, i wonder if this will stop eventually on it's own?

Much more than the question if and what aspect of the-term-that-shall-henceforth-not-be-mentioned fits Kyou best, I'd be much more interested in speculations about why she shows such behaviour. Apparently, she and Tomoya have known each other for quite some time, which explains their rather open relationship. Still, why should she (who is shown to have quite the personality) shy away from telling Tomoya directly? Do you think she (as a character) might not be too certain of her feelings towards him?

I would say that her twin sister might be a major reason.
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Old 2007-10-23, 01:50   Link #25
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Originally Posted by dgreater1 View Post
I see, I didn't know tsundere has a traditional type... I always thought tsundere means someone who switches from tsuntsun to deredere and deredere to tsuntsun everytime...
Basically, traditional is all about character development from how she changed from who she was to who she is.

Not saying modern does not possess character development, but it is more shifty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tabun View Post
As I watch my prediction from a little more than 12 hours ago come true, i wonder if this will stop eventually on it's own?

Much more than the question if and what aspect of the-term-that-shall-henceforth-not-be-mentioned fits Kyou best, I'd be much more interested in speculations about why she shows such behaviour. Apparently, she and Tomoya have known each other for quite some time, which explains their rather open relationship. Still, why should she (who is shown to have quite the personality) shy away from telling Tomoya directly? Do you think she (as a character) might not be too certain of her feelings towards him?
I think it's the whole "We are already good friends, but I am afraid that confessing my feelings would ruin our friendship" thing. Modern wild tsundere is already a concept used to shade vulnerable aspects of a character with a seemingly masculine and aggressive one and judging from the OP, we can see that Kyou's clearly not all that as she's shown. C'mon, drowsing under the rain SCREAMS emotional vulnerability.

Assuming if my speculation is right, what would be more important than her tsundere facet is what being the catalyst that would push it further. There's always some form of a catalyst (( awkward situations, 3rd parties, etc )) that would somehow break the conventional denial mold, even more so when Kyou looks like she's comfortable with her current situation.
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Old 2007-10-23, 02:34   Link #26
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Modern or Old version, i still don't consider Kyou a tsundere. True, she has the traits almost always found in those, but simply being violent and rash does not immediately a tsundere make. Neither do hiding/denying ones feelings - that would make 80% of all people a tsundere. Is Sekai from SD a tsundere ? As it stands now, i see her just as a girl with wild personality. While her behavior is a very good setup for a tsundere, she has yet to devolve to that state in my opinion. If else fails, use my racial ability 'Hate Tsundere On Sight'. I don't dislike Kyou thus far

Aside from hiding ones feelings not being a necessary indicator of being a tsundere, there might be a lot of reasons for her not making a move on Tomoya (assuming she has a thing for him, which is true, most likely), something like Ryou possibly having a crush on him as well. As pampering of her sister as she seems to be, i doubt she would make a move on him if she knew about Ryou having a crush on him.
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Old 2007-10-23, 05:53   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
Modern or Old version, i still don't consider Kyou a tsundere. True, she has the traits almost always found in those, but simply being violent and rash does not immediately a tsundere make. Neither do hiding/denying ones feelings - that would make 80% of all people a tsundere. Is Sekai from SD a tsundere ? As it stands now, i see her just as a girl with wild personality. While her behavior is a very good setup for a tsundere, she has yet to devolve to that state in my opinion. If else fails, use my racial ability 'Hate Tsundere On Sight'. I don't dislike Kyou thus far

Aside from hiding ones feelings not being a necessary indicator of being a tsundere, there might be a lot of reasons for her not making a move on Tomoya (assuming she has a thing for him, which is true, most likely), something like Ryou possibly having a crush on him as well. As pampering of her sister as she seems to be, i doubt she would make a move on him if she knew about Ryou having a crush on him.
Hmmm, that's interesting....what would you consider a tsundere, then?

Maybe she would qualify for your definition of tsundere if she does a violent act unprovoked? One might say that she never really got violent on her own initiative, after all....somewhat like Tomoyo, we've only seen her throw dictionaries or kicks whenever provoked.

Just making a wild guess on your preference here.
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Old 2007-10-23, 06:11   Link #28
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Like I said in the episode 3 thread, I can't see Kyou as the way how "tsundere" are, be it old or "consensus" version of it.

Maybe this is because it is "my" version of Tsundere, but for me, a character which harbors such trait is not qualified like this all the time just because of being dishonest.
Most likely, being dishonest with their feelings can have its roots from anything. (and seriously, there are so much examples in anime that this "specific" trait isn't reserved for Tsundere alone)

To me, a Tsundere is rather a character who displays a fool aversion towards their interest (be it love or close friendship etc), conflicting directly with what they really feel, having such result that they are demonstrating crystal clear different behaviours.

Now, what are the difference with what i just babbled out and Kyou? Basically, Kyou (currently in the anime, of course) doesn't display any peculiar "behaviour" towards Tomoya. She is brash AND friendly in her environment, and if she is pissed, the said person will eat a) a dictionnary b) a kick c) ????
What i can see with Kyou's behaviour is rather what she is all the time with anyone.

That is absolutely not what a Tsundere is, as Tsundere are "violent" in a "cold" manner. Of course, with the huge tide of "new version" of tsundere, they tend do be harsh and brutal (physical "punishments" etc) as well.
But most of the time, their violence are a mean to draw a line, something like "don't stay close to me!". Such reaction is an attempt of "self defense" and intregrity, as they don't want to "lose" to their person of interest.

I would likely say Kyou is a Tsundere if she display such behaviour more against Tomoya, in such fashion that she prevents him to be too close to her.
However, the anime portrays her violence more likely as a "natural" hotblooded personality towards anyone.

That how i would say Kyou isn't a Tsundere.
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Old 2007-10-23, 06:15   Link #29
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Like I said in the episode 3 thread, I can't see Kyou as the way how "tsundere" are, be it old or "consensus" version of it.

-Snip-

I would likely said Kyou is a Tsundere if she display such behaviour more against Tomoya, in such fashion that she prevents him to be too close to her.
However, the anime portrays her violence more likely as a "natural" hotblooded personality towards anyone.

That how i would say Kyou isn't a Tsundere.
Which is why I said Kyou have a strong tsundere aspect, but isn't a tsundere. So far, there is no indication other than that she's a sort of tomboyish hot-headed girl.

As for whether it'll bloom fully, we'll have to see.
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Old 2007-10-23, 06:23   Link #30
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
As for whether it'll bloom fully, we'll have to see.
Refer to the post that I made in the game thread, it answers all the points raised.
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Old 2007-10-23, 06:26   Link #31
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
Refer to the post that I made in the game thread in answer to all the points raised.
I already know, but keeping the discussion going.
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Old 2007-10-23, 07:04   Link #32
tabun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari
However, the anime portrays her violence more likely as a "natural" hotblooded personality towards anyone.
Well said; I concur. Also, I am interested in what the "catalyst" Nightengale mentioned will be - and that there will be one I have no doubt of.
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Old 2007-10-23, 07:50   Link #33
dgreater1
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Houston... we're going in circle...

Anyway, the people saying she's not tsundere is basing their assumption on an anime that has only showed 3 episode. On the other hand, the people who's trying to say she's tsundere is basing their answer through the game... That's how it goes... If KyouAni erm... KyoAni ditches her tsundere nature then fans might... Hmm... no comment...
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Old 2007-10-23, 08:06   Link #34
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I agree with dgreater1. I for one, can't decide if Kyou's a real tsundere or not. Maybe because I'm seeing a far more tsunderic person (Tomoyo), and she doesn't really fit the Tsun-tsun dere-dere theme, maybe if I'll see her having a crush on Sunohara or something LOL....but just for the sake of labeling Kyou, maybe I'll call her a hybrid tsundere or something
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Old 2007-10-23, 08:35   Link #35
dgreater1
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Originally Posted by theused69 View Post
I for one, can't decide if Kyou's a real tsundere or not. Maybe because I'm seeing a far more tsunderic person (Tomoyo), and she doesn't really fit the Tsun-tsun dere-dere theme, maybe if I'll see her having a crush on Sunohara or something LOL....but just for the sake of labeling Kyou, maybe I'll call her a hybrid tsundere or something
Problem with her falling in love with Sunohara is, she'll be saying "Hey, it's fun being with you, let's go out together." straight at his face, then Sunohara would go, "Oh... *blush* I... I don't know..." then Tomoyo would say "Just kidding!" after that, Sunohara would be enrage "What do you mean by that!?"... erm... that's almost saying Sunohara would be the tsundere here XD
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Old 2007-10-23, 16:03   Link #36
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Old 2007-10-23, 17:57   Link #37
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
I already know, but keeping the discussion going.
What's the point of keeping the discussion though when the answer to the question is already there with no room for debate?

Not only that, more and more people are thinking Tomoyo is tsundere and another issue arises in that people are adapting an even more wrong definition of the word by focusing only on the abusive/violent nature, rather than the emotional reasoning behind what causes a tsundere to go tsun to begin with - it is a characteristic of a gap between acted out actions and feelings in mind, they act violent and sharp even though they really have a romantic feelings towards the subject at hand. Tomoyo only acts violent *if and only if* provoked hostily from someone like Sunohara and is not driven by her secret inner romantic feelings towards Sunohara.
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Old 2007-10-23, 18:24   Link #38
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
What's the point of keeping the discussion though when the answer to the question is already there with no room for debate?

Not only that, more and more people are thinking Tomoyo is tsundere and another issue arises in that people are adapting an even more wrong definition of the word by focusing only on the abusive/violent nature, rather than the emotional reasoning behind what causes a tsundere to go tsun to begin with - it is a characteristic of a gap between acted out actions and feelings in mind, they act violent and sharp even though they really have a romantic feelings towards the subject at hand. Tomoyo only acts violent *if and only if* provoked hostily from someone like Sunohara and is not driven by her secret inner romantic feelings towards Sunohara.
1. It's for the people who DON'T want to read the game threads and such.

2. You're right about Tomoyo. I consider her a passive Sunao-Cool (素直 - ク―ル)
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Old 2007-10-23, 18:34   Link #39
Skyfall
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Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
What's the point of keeping the discussion though when the answer to the question is already there with no room for debate?
Thats your opinion, but please don't go passing it around as the undeniable truth. So far i have yet to see any arguments that would be rock solid one way or another. And yes, i have read your argument in the game thread... and all i have to say that our views what is a tsundere differ greatly in the first place, so no wonder there is no agreement to be gained here, as we are arguing different things. Klash summed up nicely what i consider to be a tsundere, and as such i don't consider her to be one.
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Old 2007-10-23, 19:15   Link #40
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If we all view Kyou's violent acts as her way of expressing friendliness, that will have everything solved...
By the way, someone find a video of the voice actress interview and watch the Kyou part--even the voice actress says Kyou is a wild girl. Wild =/= Tsundere
And look forward to my translation of part 3 of Maeda interview tomorrow (in FAQ), it contains his view on the Fujibayashi twins.
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