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Old 2007-10-23, 20:33   Link #41
kct
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As I said, Kyou is just 'ballistic' >.> . Tsundere wasn't a proper word to truly describe her, and yeah, she is basically wild (albeit not to the extent of being an Amazoness...but, riding mopeds is just...).

It is me or this is the only character discussion thread that have the biggest number of posts? (My post already started page 3.)
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Old 2007-10-23, 20:40   Link #42
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by kct View Post
It is me or this is the only character discussion thread that have the biggest number of posts? (My post already started page 3.)
About 2/3 of it is concerning whether Kyou is a tsundere or not.
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Old 2007-10-23, 21:04   Link #43
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Thats your opinion, but please don't go passing it around as the undeniable truth.
I really hate it when the final argument falls back to "that's your opinion" line.

Of course it was my opinion, and so are yours and Klash and everyone elses. Except here, I've also support my opinion that she is one with enough reasoning, provided a widely accepted definition of the word as well as commonly accepted variation of the archtype in the Japanese otaku circle, a publicly voted poll, as well as game material that I'm confident enough to say that my opinion is well supported with more weight than say what Klash and you have said that it may as well be considered a case that is undebatable.

otoh, your reasoning is weak because you and Klash went out to redefine the meaning of the word from the beginning to fit your argument, rather than start with the most commonly accepted definition of the word and see whether the character fits. That's just moving the goal post, rather than actually debating on the question at hand.
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Old 2007-10-23, 21:18   Link #44
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Lol at this whole thread if it goes on like this, seriously.

I hope to say 'to each their own' but eh, this seems not to be the case here...but seriously, we are talking about the CURRENT Kyou here, not the later Kyou or anything as of now. As of now, she is just 'tsun' (not the hardcorer 'tsun' but she is going there).
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Old 2007-10-23, 21:22   Link #45
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Originally Posted by kct View Post
Lol at this whole thread if it goes on like this, seriously.

I hope to say 'to each their own' but eh, this seems not to be the case here...but seriously, we are talking about the CURRENT Kyou here, not the later Kyou or anything as of now. As of now, she is just 'tsun' (not the hardcorer 'tsun' but she is going there).

This is exactly why I suggested making "Is Kyou a tsundere?" the poll for this thread. Hehe~

And I guess I'll repost these here for good measure.
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Old 2007-10-23, 21:30   Link #46
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Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
I really hate it when the final argument falls back to "that's your opinion" line.

Of course it was my opinion, and so are yours and Klash and everyone elses. Except here, I've also support my opinion that she is one with enough reasoning, provided a widely accepted definition of the word as well as commonly accepted variation of the archtype in the Japanese otaku circle, a publicly voted poll, as well as game material that I'm confident enough to say that my opinion is well supported with more weight than say what Klash and you have said that it may as well be considered a case that is undebatable.

otoh, your reasoning is weak because you and Klash went out to redefine the meaning of the word from the beginning to fit your argument, rather than start with the most commonly accepted definition of the word and see whether the character fits. That's just moving the goal post, rather than actually debating on the question at hand.
To be fair, veterans such as yourself have game materials to base your opinions on. Even then, for some reason, not everyone (( who's played )) agrees, for whatever reasons.

Personally, I can see the tsundere in Kyou (( pure speculation, but I think it's about 70% obvious she has a thing for Tomoya, dunno about Ryou though )) but talking just 3 episodes in, it's not weird that there are people who think otherwise, what's with the non-united opinions on what defines to them as 'tsundere.'
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Old 2007-10-24, 02:01   Link #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
otoh, your reasoning is weak because you and Klash went out to redefine the meaning of the word from the beginning to fit your argument, rather than start with the most commonly accepted definition of the word and see whether the character fits. That's just moving the goal post, rather than actually debating on the question at hand.
I won't really debate with the earlier point since Nightengale already did well. I didn't play kyou's route yet, and seriously... it isn't a "no brainer" statement currently, otherwise, people wouldn't have such split opinion to begin.

as for the quote part, I'm really wondering how this "definition" was refined to fit my argument...
If i was to stricly use the definition of it, that wouldn't be even possible to apply.

"The definition of the term has evolved to apply to not only characters who change from harsh to gentle but who are cold on the outside and kind internally."

As far as i can see with the anime version, no, Kyou doesn't change from harsh to Gentle (and as I stated earlier, i'm not even sure if tagging along with Tomoya will really change her)... yet. Of course, things will be confirmed or not, but the first part is of course the "older" version of tsundere, which I think is the closest possible definition for Kyou's case, if she happens to change. (if they involve her romance part, that said)

The second part is even less possible to apply, since Kyou doesn't harbor any "hostile" in a sense she is trying to be alone. The fortune telling and the motorbike scenes demonstrated that Kyou is certainly not harboring any aversion to anyone.
Cold is arguably what it means, and "violent" might be an extra. But mainly, acting violent isn't synonym of "acting cold". And that's how i can't see Kyou as a "second type" tsundere, because she is hardly hostile, but just wild AND friendly.


feel free to claim your opinion anyway, but it doesn't require to dismantle other opinions just because they aren't basing on the same "data" as yours.
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Old 2007-10-24, 02:28   Link #48
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I don't really understand this other definition some people speak off, but in my case... I'll make it short, a tsundere (to me) is a person who is wild in nature but switches mood like crazy. Take for example, the 3rd picture that KaneDragon posted, Kyou's mood when she threw that dictionary at Sunohara's face was wild, then she became embarrassed when Sunohara commented about something he saw, then switches back to her wild side.
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Old 2007-10-24, 03:01   Link #49
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by dgreater1 View Post
I don't really understand this other definition some people speak off, but in my case... I'll make it short, a tsundere (to me) is a person who is wild in nature but switches mood like crazy. Take for example, the 3rd picture that KaneDragon posted, Kyou's mood when she threw that dictionary at Sunohara's face was wild, then she became embarrassed when Sunohara commented about something he saw, then switches back to her wild side.

Then what's a difference between bipolar and tsundere?
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Old 2007-10-24, 04:17   Link #50
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Then what's a difference between bipolar and tsundere?
In my opinion (that's mine)... basing it on how their personality goes most of the time... btw, I don't really know if bipolar means tsun and dere at the same time, but if bipolar means shy and wild at the same time, I don't think there's any difference... I mean, a tsundere to me doesn't always need someone to love. As long as she acts tsuntsun and deredere all the time or at the same time, that's a tsundere to me, like I said before, someone who frequently switches mood XD
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Old 2007-10-24, 04:31   Link #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgreater1 View Post
I don't really understand this other definition some people speak off, but in my case... I'll make it short, a tsundere (to me) is a person who is wild in nature but switches mood like crazy. Take for example, the 3rd picture that KaneDragon posted, Kyou's mood when she threw that dictionary at Sunohara's face was wild, then she became embarrassed when Sunohara commented about something he saw, then switches back to her wild side.
The "old" tsundere is rather the previous version we got (if you have watched Lucky Star, there is one Lucky Channel, where Shiraishi explains very well the change of the use of the term "Tsundere"):
Basically a character who is cold first, but then, as the relationship/interaction is going on, the said character becomes "fluffy". That means it is like a block of ice who melted over the time, and not someone switch here and there. Once it is melted, it is for good.

One of the most obvious Tsundere of that type is Tohsaka Rin, from Fate/Stay Night, who is rather fond of her objective alone, but as her interactions with Shirou goes on, she develops a liking towards him. (no mood switch, or very minimal, more caused by her temper rather than her "tsundere" side)

there isn't actually a need to "switch" like crazy. As some characters do this (Asuna from Negima, Asuka from Evangelion), other tsundere of the "modern type" are changing mood, but really on peculiar and rare occasions.
See Akiha from Tsukihime, who is rarely dere (well... it is relative)

that said, I see where you got this definition, though mood swing really depends how the "aggressive" parts is aimed for.
In kyou's case (or any girl of that genre), It is rather "normal" that the girl is first embarassed, then try to demolish the "offender" afterwards.
In fact, aside of the usual "moe blob" and naive characters, most female anime characters would beat the crap out of the said person..." (tsundere or not)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Then what's a difference between bipolar and tsundere?
errr... bipolar is somewhat very severe and doesn't follow exactly logic or feelings.
Rather, it is quite pathologic... guess the wikipedia article is fine enough for some explanations...

The difference is huge, as even a "modern tsundere" (a character being aggressive and lovey dovey all the time, like Louise from ZNT) doesn't act out of the blue.

the term "bipolar" is just used too quickly, or rather an analogy how a tsundere looks like. It is more adapted for "Mania-depressive" people.
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Old 2007-10-24, 04:46   Link #52
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Very long... so just read the message above
I see now... So unless Kyou really opens up to Tomoya, you wouldn't consider her a tsundere then? Well, no one would be able to convince you unless you play the game. The term you're looking for is there as you can see and it probably wouldn't be in the anime since Tomoya will surely land on Nagisa's palm
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Old 2007-10-24, 04:50   Link #53
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
errr... bipolar is somewhat very severe and doesn't follow exactly logic or feelings.
Rather, it is quite pathologic... guess the wikipedia article is fine enough for some explanations...

The difference is huge, as even a "modern tsundere" (a character being aggressive and lovey dovey all the time, like Louise from ZNT) doesn't act out of the blue.

the term "bipolar" is just used too quickly, or rather an analogy how a tsundere looks like. It is more adapted for "Mania-depressive" people.
I was just taking a stab at the definition of tsundere being "changing moods"
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Old 2007-10-24, 04:50   Link #54
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Originally Posted by dgreater1 View Post
I see now... So unless Kyou really opens up to Tomoya, you wouldn't consider her a tsundere then? Well, no one would be able to convince you unless you play the game. The term you're looking for is there as you can see and it probably wouldn't be in the anime since Tomoya will surely land on Nagisa's palm
Humm not really. in fact, the thing is kyou's "mood swing" trigger isn't exactly what i would expect from a tsundere.
Even if Kyou opens up to Tomoya, i wouldn't even call her tsundere, until she uses her wild demeanor to "pretend" and staya away from him. (basically, using her wild behaviour to claim a hostile position against him). Right now she is like this for anyone, that's why I believe the wild part of her is rather her personality as a whole, and not "tsundere" because she doesn't act like this to protect something/pretend the opposite of what she is.

In such, let's take the example of Hinako of Myself;Yourself who is clearly tsundere, and acts in such manner to feign the opposite of what she is (pretend to be adult, while she is still a kid, obviously). Being pinched with awkward hints she is indeed a kid (receiving a cute figurine), she still keep her "facade" by claiming "it would be a waste to not accept" about something and such.
That's how i see a "tsundere moodswing": acting cold, as an attempt to not be close of something, or not exposing themselve. and acting dere when their weak spot is hit, though it is alright to play along.

That said, i claimed my view was only from the anime, and i'm far from being able to check her path on the game anyway. Not exactly truth claimed anyway, that was rather my opinion about "wild" demeanor, which is not synonym of "tsundere trait" in my books.

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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
I was just taking a stab at the definition of tsundere being "changing moods"
my, completely missed the meaning of the remark, my bad >_>"
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Old 2007-10-24, 05:20   Link #55
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
my, completely missed the meaning of the remark, my bad >_>"
It's the internet

Back to Kyou: In the anime so far, Kyouhas not shown any definite tsundere characteristics to Tomoya or other boys, so let's wait and see before jumping to the conclusion.
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Old 2007-10-24, 05:30   Link #56
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So, unless she denies her feelings or try to pretend in a wild demeanor or wild manner towards Tomoya, you won't consider her tsundere then?
Spoiler:

Well, anyway, tsundere for me is about personality as a whole in a person and not about developing personality in a story.
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Old 2007-10-24, 05:33   Link #57
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Well, anyway, tsundere for me is about personality as a whole in a person and not about developing personality in a story.
If I may be harsh........

Tsundere is about development, or at least a characteristic that appears when you like/love someone. One cannot be a tsundere when one doesn't have a person to be a tsundere at.

In other words, tsundere can't be personality as a whole, since it has to have a subject to which it reacts.
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Old 2007-10-24, 05:40   Link #58
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Old 2007-10-24, 05:44   Link #59
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae
If I may be harsh........

Tsundere is about development, or at least a characteristic that appears when you like/love someone. One cannot be a tsundere when one doesn't have a person to be a tsundere at.

In other words, tsundere can't be personality as a whole, since it has to have a subject to which it reacts.
It's all right, but I think you didn't get my idea, what I meant is for me, tsundere is a kind of personality, being tsuntsun and deredere (he can react to anyone and doesn't need someone to love to do so since it's about mood switching), and not something that requires development like, starting from being wild to slowly opening up to someone but denies that fact.

I think we're going in circle again...

But anyway, I'm shourting for my beloved Boke! Let her out already XD
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Old 2007-10-24, 05:54   Link #60
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by dgreater1 View Post
It's all right, but I think you didn't get my idea, what I meant is for me, tsundere is a kind of personality, being tsuntsun and deredere (he can react to anyone and doesn't need someone to love to do so since it's about mood switching), and not something that requires development like, starting from being wild to slowly opening up to someone but denies that fact.
By that definition, practically all hot-headed people are tsunderes.
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