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Old 2007-10-25, 09:52   Link #81
Kinny Riddle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamandragon View Post
Her acts of violence a of the 'warm' type of violence. She's beating up Sunohara because she cares for Botan, not that she is angry of Sunohara. (not like she doesn't dislike him anyways) The last kick of hers is of normal reaction. Her acts of trying to strangle Tomoya is because she cares for her reputation(a normal reaction). Now, bring in more examples of Kyou being tsun?
I still don't understand how that isn't a kind of "tsun" for you. She can be "tsun" to anyone and "dere" to anyone. Just because that action is realistic and normal does not mean it's not "tsun".

Quote:
I'm keeping the game and anime seperate, for the benefit of the people who haven't played the game.
Fair enough. But do you think the writers of the anime wouldn't take game Kyou's personality into consideration? Anime Kyou has the same personality as the game Kyou and is basically the same character.

Or are you suggesting Kyo-Ani's Kyou is a brand new character altogether? Why would they do such a thing when they aim to be as faithful to the original as possible, as they have done with past Key games?
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Old 2007-10-25, 10:33   Link #82
dgreater1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamandragon
I would beat ANYONE into a state of unconcious if they sees my underwear. Maybe it's okay for westerns to have their underwear seen, but definitely not us easterns.
First of all, Kyou was in bad temper there because she thought they're doing something bad to Botan. You would beat ANYONE into a state of unconcious if they sees your underwear because you got into a bad temper. In Kyou's case, she got embarrassed first and tries to hide the fact by being hostile again (tsuntsun) to Sunohara. Like I said, being tsuntsun is being in bad temper, it's about personality. If Sunohara said that to Furukawa, she would only get embarrassed but not in a bad temper. See the difference between a deredere Furukawa and a tsundere Kyou?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamandragon
I repeat, Kyou was never in a bad mood. Her wild acts are mainly her way to express friendliness, like the guys do.
Sweatdrops... she was never? Then are you telling me her anger (which is a form of tsun) about the "bi" and mistakenly thought that Sunohara and Tomoya were doing something to Botan isn't being hot tempered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamandragon
Again, a realistic reaction. Normal girls don't want to be called a lesbian or bisexual. My 'I'm bi for Kyou' statement was merely a joke, but girls don't want their sex direction to be mistakened because it is disgusting. Would you be happy if someone you know announces to the public that you are gay? (assuming you are straight)
Again, we're not talking about reaction here, but personality that Kyou has. Try doing the same stuff with the other girls, you would get a different reaction. Meaning, try imagining a scenario where it's not Kyou who's Tomoya is referring to. For example, a very Boke Kotomi. Do you think Kotomi would react like that? She would probably just go, "???" and then "Nandeyanen!"... She probably wouldn't even think it's an insult. Again, a very big difference in personality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamandragon
Still trying to reference the Botan scene? Normal reaction.
Besides, no one likes Sunohara. Or are you trying to say the rugby team are tsuntsun towards Sunohara and deredere when with themselves?
You're trying to base tsundere for how they react but what you don't understand is being a tsundere is being in a personality that goes tsuntsun and deredere. Most people doesn't like Sunohara but are you forgetting about Furukawa or Yukine or Mei as well? Not the kind of love you're thinking about though. And despite it's not subtle, Tomoya do care about Sunohara.

Q: Am I trying trying to say that the Rugby is tsuntsun towards Sunohara?
A: 100000% Sure!

Q: Are they deredere towards themselve?
A: How would I know? Did they even show they're deredere in the game and in the show? All they did were show their tsuntsun (bad temper/frustration/etc.) side towards Sunohara.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamandragon
Let's stop referencing other anime shall we...and like everyone else said: Akira and Kyou are different. It's pointless to compare each other unless you find a character identical to Kyou.
Who are you telling I'm comparing Akira and Kyou? Akira is purely tsuntsun and not deredere at all, I'm comparing Kyou to Kagami if that's what you want to know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamandragon
Exactly. And therefore the chance of her being a tsundere is low.
Not exactly. He intended for her not to be tsundere, but the due to her personality going on like that, it didn't happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamandragon
Her acts of violence is of the 'warm' type of violence. She's beating up Sunohara because she cares for Botan, not that she is angry of Sunohara. (not like she doesn't dislike him anyways) The last kick of hers is of normal reaction. Her acts of trying to strangle Tomoya is because she cares for her reputation(a normal reaction). Now, bring in more examples of Kyou being tsun?
If you're trying to put it like that, then how about this as a different approach of her being a tsundere. Her acts of violence (tsuntsun) is to protect Botan, she got hot-tempered (not that angry) cause she thought they're doing something to her pet.

Her acts of trying to strangle Tomoya is because she cares for her reputation(a normal tsundere reaction). Why? She's embarrassed or in a hot-temper (if you don't want to use a strong word like angry) about it. A person who's not a tsundere wouldn't react like Kyou. Do you understand now?

Now, bring in more examples of Kyou being tsun? If you don't see most of her tsun scene in the anime, then what's your definition of tsun? You're explaining why that kind of her reaction is normal, and not why she is not a tsun. Being a tsun doesn't mean reacting to something. It has a more deeper meaning. And one of the meaning is being a bad/hot-tempered person or aloof or whatever. I wouldn't say that to Kyou because she might go in tsun mode and pummel me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle
I still don't understand how that isn't a kind of "tsun" for you. She can be "tsun" to anyone and "dere" to anyone. Just because that action is realistic and normal does not mean it's not "tsun".
You always makes it more simple and yet, they just don't get it

We already defined Kyou as a tsuntsun type because of the fact that she's a hot-tempered/wild/easily ticked off/etc. etc. person.
We already defined Kyou as a deredere as well because despite having a tsuntsun side, she do easily gets embarrassed and warmhearted and etc. etc.

You get what we mean? Tsundere is about personality, be it whole or developing.

You say it's a normal reaction (a normal reaction to you but not to everyone), but that's one of the reason why she became a tsun and at the same time tsundere in the first place, we haven't seen much of her deredere side as of yet except for the Botan scene though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle
Fair enough. But do you think the writers of the anime wouldn't take game Kyou's personality into consideration? Anime Kyou has the same personality as the game Kyou and is basically the same character.

Or are you suggesting Kyo-Ani's Kyou is a brand new character alt
I wonder what would the tsundere fans think about this idea... Well, I'm not really into tsundere, I'm more into Boke types and Normal types! Let Kotomi out of the library already!
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Old 2007-10-25, 10:36   Link #83
eMpTy265
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Just a few questions regarding the tsundere :

1.) Where would we draw the line between acting 'being friendly in a boyish way' and 'tsun'?

2.) Suppose Kyou was a guy (refrains from using a 'bi' joke), would we still use tsundere to refer to her personality? (compared to... say Kyon in SHnY, which I've heard people referring to him as such)
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Old 2007-10-25, 10:58   Link #84
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Quote:
Just a few questions regarding the tsundere :

1.) Where would we draw the line between acting 'being friendly in a boyish way' and 'tsun'?

2.) Suppose Kyou was a guy (refrains from using a 'bi' joke), would we still use tsundere to refer to her personality? (compared to... say Kyon in SHnY, which I've heard people referring to him as such)
1) Tsuntsun is a multi-term that can be use to describe personality. Don't really know if that's the same as being friendly in a boyish way. But for what I know, it's not describe like that.

2a) Tsundere is a Japanese word describes a girl with a bad attitude (tsuntsun) but gradually develops into a shy. loving, adorable, etc. etc. person (deredere), not eliminating her tsun personality though (traditional definition). See Shana, Sawatari Makoto, Suiseiki, Tohsaka Rin, Akane Tendo, Nadia (Fushigi no Umi no Nadia), etc. It's about character development

2b) Tsundere is a Japanese word that describes a girl with a personality of being a tsuntsun and a deredere above most of her personality (modern definition). See Kagami, Anya, Asuna Kagurazaka, Asuka, Ayu (or was it Mayu from Rumbling Hearts?) etc. etc. It's about the personality as a whole

2c) Kyon is tsun because he's almost always in bad mood due to Haruhi but he's not supposed to be called a tsundere because that would make him look like a gay XD) Imagine him, blushing trying to talk his way out.
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Old 2007-10-25, 11:57   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eMpTy265 View Post
Just a few questions regarding the tsundere :

1.) Where would we draw the line between acting 'being friendly in a boyish way' and 'tsun'?
Because beating other's up is the boy's way of showing friendliness, so it's not tsun but dere actually for boys.

dgreater1, if you really want to use examples, tell me: is Nagisa a tsundere?
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Old 2007-10-25, 12:54   Link #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamadragon
Because beating other's up is the boy's way of showing friendliness, so it's not tsun but dere actually for boys.

dgreater1, if you really want to use examples, tell me: is Nagisa a tsundere?
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari
Sheesh... at this rate, Tomoyo and EVEN Nagisa will be considered as Tsundere if they are considered like it because of Tomoya..."
Erm... and why in the world did they become tsun? They weren't even close to tsun to begin with. And I didn't say having mood swing is tsundere but rather having a mood that swings from tsuntsun to deredere is tsundere.
Nagisa isn't a tsundere, didn't you see my reply before? She doesn't have the most important aspect of tsundere, and that is "tsun" short for "tsuntsun" which is word usually used to describe personality.

As far as I can see, you're definition of tsun in tsundere is a bit wrong because you're applying something else when it should only be describing personality.

Did Nagisa start with a hot-tempered personality? (can be considered wild, a form of tsun) (traditional definition) Is she someone who always becomes irritated? (a form of tsun) (modern definition) Not, right? She's just a gentle and loving girl who can also get embarrassed sometimes.

A simple explanation...

Traditional Tsundere == Tsuntsun ----> Deredere (It means, from being someone who has a bad attitude to someone loving)
Modern Tsundere == Tsuntsun+Deredere (It means someone who has a bad attitude but really weak/lovable/moonstruck/etc. inside) and the tsuntsun part is more obvious than the deredere part.

Anyway, a much more easier to understand term for tsuntsun is "hot headed" and "softhearted" for deredere. But anyway, almost every moe girls are deredere as well... if not, all...

Anymore question?
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Old 2007-10-25, 14:55   Link #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgreater1
We already defined Kyou as a tsuntsun type because of the fact that she's a hot-tempered/wild/easily ticked off/etc. etc. person.
That is hardly a reason to call anyone a tsundere. While these are indeed traits possessed by most(all?) tsunderes, not everyone possessing these traits is a tsundere though. Labeling her as such simply because of it is a superficial generalization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgreater1
As far as I can see, you're definition of tsun in tsundere is a bit wrong because you're applying something else when it should only be describing personality
.

Tsundere isn't a 'personality' per se to begin with, it is a trait. Anyways, you seem to claim that if a person tends to act in a hot headed manner it makes them a tsundere, which i absolutely can't agree with.

At any rate, this conversation indeed seems to be less and less related to Kyou and more to what the heck we consider to be tsundere in first place, so perhaps it is indeed worth considering moving that discussion to the tsundere thread in General anime.
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Old 2007-10-25, 17:23   Link #88
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It's not about how we consider what is to be tsundere, but we're debating weather Kyou is acting tsun or friendly.

Every single person out there does show manners of dislike to another person they dislike, and vice versa for those they like, but you don't call everybody a 'tsundere' right? When talking about tsun and dere, they have to be acting towards the same person. Kyou has never, ever acted tsun towards Tomoya and dere towards Sunohara (apart from the final choice in her route). Therefore, Kyou is consistent in terms of mood. And thus, Kyou is not a tsundere because she doesn't exhibit the triats of a tsundere where they have a mood swing between 'tsun' and 'dere' towards one single character.

On the contary, if we use your theory that Kyou is tsundere because she acts 'tsun' towards Sunohara and 'dere' towards Tomoya, then we can have to be consistent and see that Nagisa is a tsundere because she is always ignoring Sunohara and paying attention to Tomoya, but now you say she is not a tsundere--how can you justify that then?

(Note: I do not think Nagisa is a tsundere because she is consistent in her mood.)
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Old 2007-10-25, 17:24   Link #89
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle View Post
Fair enough. But do you think the writers of the anime wouldn't take game Kyou's personality into consideration? Anime Kyou has the same personality as the game Kyou and is basically the same character.

Or are you suggesting Kyo-Ani's Kyou is a brand new character altogether? Why would they do such a thing when they aim to be as faithful to the original as possible, as they have done with past Key games?
We'll have to see, for I'm not sure whether they'll animate the arcs seperately or merge some of them, meaning that the game aspect of a character can be weakened in the anime.
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Old 2007-10-25, 17:37   Link #90
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There is no particular need to to merge the routes forcefully, as it is possible that every single get a show in Nagisa's route even in the game. But some classic moments will need a bit of work to fit in the show (like Fuko's final moment)

It's funny seeing that Kyou's thread is the longest threat, despite she is not the no.1 popular amongst the players. (The most popular is Tomoyo, IIRC)

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Old 2007-10-25, 20:34   Link #91
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Originally Posted by Skyfall
That is hardly a reason to call anyone a tsundere. While these are indeed traits possessed by most(all?) tsunderes, not everyone possessing these traits is a tsundere though. Labeling her as such simply because of it is a superficial generalization.
Sigh... Did I say being a tsun is tsundere? Didn't you see my reply towards iamadragon saying "Who are you telling I'm comparing Akira and Kyou? Akira is purely tsuntsun and not deredere at all, I'm comparing Kyou to Kagami if that's what you want to know." And by the way, all tsundere's are Tsun (have the tsuntsun side) if they're not tsun they wouldn't be tsundere. But anyway, I didn't say all tsundere's are tsun (as in just tsun). It's like this phrase, God is Lord but Lord is not God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
Tsundere isn't a 'personality' per se to begin with, it is a trait. Anyways, you seem to claim that if a person tends to act in a hot headed manner it makes them a tsundere, which i absolutely can't agree with.
You mustn't agree if someone told you acting tsuntsun is a tsundere because you have to make sure that she's deredere as well.

And I never claimed anything about being a tsun is being a tsundere. Read above quote.

But anyway, if you're talking about this message "You say it's a normal reaction (a normal reaction to you but not to everyone), but that's one of the reason why she became a tsun and at the same time tsundere in the first place, we haven't seen much of her deredere side as of yet except for the Botan scene though."

What I mean there is:

1) She's a tsun because she's a hot-headed hard to deal with person.
2) She's a tsundere because despite she's a hot-headed (tsun) hard to deal with person, she is a shy/kind/moonstruck/caring-to-her-sister/what-ever-you-want-to-call-it (dere) person in the inside.

Actually, most of that girls that lands only on the tsun side are either enemies or just plain crazy hot-headed (a very simple example is Akira and Asuzagawa Yukino of Yakitate Japan).

If you don't want to use that term for Kyou, then you what would Kagami be? She's almost the same as Kyou, a head-headed but really caring person. Kyou is hot-headed the same as Kagami, Kyou is caring and she also gets embarrassed easily, the same as Kagami.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamadragon
It's not about how we consider what is to be tsundere, but we're debating weather Kyou is acting tsun or friendly.
Thats is why I can help but wonder why can't you see her hot-headed side which is already evident all throughout the three episode. Her first appearance already showed her hot-headed attitude, in a hostile way though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamadragon
When talking about tsun and dere, they have to be acting towards the same person. Kyou has never, ever acted tsun towards Tomoya and dere towards Sunohara (apart from the final choice in her route). Therefore, Kyou is consistent in terms of mood. And thus, Kyou is not a tsundere because she doesn't exhibit the triats of a tsundere where they have a mood swing between 'tsun' and 'dere' towards one single character.
Nope, they don't need to act towards the same person. And Kyou has never acted hotheaded towards Tomoya in the game? She's almost always hotheaded when she's talking to Tomoya which makes me wonder again why you think that isn't what being hotheaded means. If most of her angry/fierce/hot-tempered actions towards Tomoya isn't because she's being hotheaded, then what is hotheaded to you? Anyway, you're adding another unnecessary reason (talking about acting towards the same person). I thought the wiki has explained it too well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamadragon
On the contary, if we use your theory that Kyou is tsundere because she acts 'tsun' towards Sunohara and 'dere' towards Tomoya, then we can have to be consistent and see that Nagisa is a tsundere because she is always ignoring Sunohara and paying attention to Tomoya, but now you say she is not a tsundere--how can you justify that then?
Erm... excuse me... who gave you an idea that ignoring someone is being a tsun? Like I said, being tsun is being or acting hotheaded. Think about all the tsundere you can think of then think about the most obvious personality they share, if you don't want to, then think about all the tsundere you know and compare it to a mildly angry drunk (don't compare them to a totally angry drunk person since those kinds will hurt people). That is what being a hotheaded person is. But like I also said before, there are tsundere that are mildly tsun, take for example the sickly girl from Hanbun no Tsuki...

mataray = hotheaded/hotblooded = tsuntsun (super easy term for Filipino to understand )
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Old 2007-10-25, 21:04   Link #92
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by dgreater1 View Post
2) She's a tsundere because despite she's a hot-headed (tsun) hard to deal with person, she is a shy/kind/moonstruck/caring-to-her-sister/what-ever-you-want-to-call-it (dere) person in the inside.
I think I finally got your mind: You expanded the original application of the term to anyone who acts tough but is also soft inside.


I have to say that I disagree with having terms used so broadly
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Old 2007-10-25, 21:12   Link #93
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
I think I finally got your mind: You expanded the original application of the term to anyone who acts tough but is also soft inside.


I have to say that I disagree with having terms used so broadly
And so we go back to the eternal battle between the Shiraishi-ist school and the Modern School of Tsundere Studies.
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Old 2007-10-25, 21:17   Link #94
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And so we go back to the eternal battle between the Shiraishi-ist school and the Modern School of Tsundere Studies.
No, dgreater1's definition goes beyond the Modern School: it's bascially applying cubism everywhere in real life.
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Old 2007-10-25, 22:18   Link #95
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No, dgreater1's definition goes beyond the Modern School: it's bascially applying cubism everywhere in real life.
I didn't go beyond the definition of the Modern definition, that is just one of the definition. Anyway, the definition you have about tsuntsun and deredere is narrow and like Kinny Riddle has been saying all this time:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle
I go by the more flexible definition: "cold on the outside, warm on the inside". It can be expressed physically or emotionally. "Cold" can mean being violent, or rude (in a cheerful or menacing way). "Warm" can mean feeling insecure, embarrassed. and any of the more "girly" traits. And it can also apply on RL ladies, like Vexx's wife, for example.
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Old 2007-10-26, 04:39   Link #96
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Would you please stop using characters outside of CLANNAD for reference? For one thing I don't watch as much anime as you otakus, so don't assume I know about the other characters about other series. All I'm here to debate is weather Kyou is a tsundere or not, and I'm standing firm by saying Kyou is never tsun, her hot-headed moments are actually her way of showing love/friendliness

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgreater1 View Post
Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle
I go by the more flexible definition: "cold on the outside, warm on the inside". It can be expressed physically or emotionally. "Cold" can mean being violent, or rude (in a cheerful or menacing way). "Warm" can mean feeling insecure, embarrassed. and any of the more "girly" traits. And it can also apply on RL ladies, like Vexx's wife, for example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgreater1
Erm... excuse me... who gave you an idea that ignoring someone is being a tsun?
There you go. Or are you saying ignoring someone is not cold, but very warm? Tomoyo is a tsundere character because she acted cold towards Tomoya in the beginning as well and fell in love with him later on.

Quote:
Thats is why I can help but wonder why can't you see her hot-headed side which is already evident all throughout the three episode. Her first appearance already showed her hot-headed attitude, in a hostile way though.
Her violent acts are all acts of friendliness, not being hostile. For example, take her first appearance where Ryou was doing a fortune tell with Tomoya. She was attacking Tomoya because she thought Tomoya was bullying Ryou. The main objective of the attack was because she was trying to protect her sister not assault Tomoya.

Quote:
Nope, they don't need to act towards the same person. And Kyou has never acted hotheaded towards Tomoya in the game? She's almost always hotheaded when she's talking to Tomoya which makes me wonder again why you think that isn't what being hotheaded means. If most of her angry/fierce/hot-tempered actions towards Tomoya isn't because she's being hotheaded, then what is hotheaded to you? Anyway, you're adding another unnecessary reason (talking about acting towards the same person). I thought the wiki has explained it too well...
Well if they don't need to act towards the same person then things won't work! Or are you saying Misae is a tsundere because she is beating the rugby team up and being kind to Tomoya? And Fuko is a tsundere because he beats up Sunohara up but not Tomoya? Or if we are in an anime where there are two fractions fighting each other, then basically everyone is a tsundere because they're acting tsun towards the enemies and dere to some of their comrades! We can't have that, right?

And therefore, when looking at the tsun and dere moments of Kyou we have to make sure we are looking at the same person. It's like doing a scientific experiment. We keep every factor constant and monitor two changing factor. For Kyou's case, the changing factor is the situation and her mood.
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Old 2007-10-26, 05:59   Link #97
dgreater1
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Originally Posted by iamandragon
Just read above
I really give up... girls really don't budge when they stick firm to their opinion... anyway, if you don't want to call her tsundere, then don't... you're trying to narrow down your definition of tsundere and I can feel your message having a tsuntsun feeling to it now so I'll let it go.

But anyway you did say, "her hot-headed moments are actually her way of showing love/friendliness"... that's what being a tsuntsun person means... being in a hot-headed moments... and the bolded italic one is what you call being a deredere... so it means, you're contradicting yourself...
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Old 2007-10-26, 06:06   Link #98
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Originally Posted by dgreater1 View Post
I really give up... girls really don't budge when they stick firm to their opinion... anyway, if you don't want to call her tsundere, then don't... you're trying to narrow down your definition of tsundere and I can feel your message have a tsuntsun feeling to it now so I'll let it go.
Err... don't start generalizing people who just diverge with your opinion... not like the gender has anything to do with debate and opinion, isn't it? ^^'

And seriously, I don't see any hostility and such, but meh.
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But anyway you did say, "her hot-headed moments are actually her way of showing love/friendliness"... that's what being a tsuntsun person means... being in a hot-headed moments... and the bolded italic one is what you call being a deredere... so it means, you're contradicting yourself...
No, that's not what iamandragon implied. What she said is the fact that the "hot headed moments" are mistaken as tsuntsun, while it is just some friendship (which isn't always synonym of deredere). That's basically why people are debating on Kyou, whatever her aggressivity is tsun counted for tsundere or not.
In fact, the aggressivity is a MANNER of speech, which doesn't change the meaning of it.

If you are aggressive or calm, the impatc might change, but the message is still the same. That's why iamandragon made an emphasis on "friendliness". Because being aggressive doesn't mean it is an act of coldness or whatever.
The way how Kyou expresses herself is indeed wild, but her demeanor is NOT. If someone yells "i love you" or mutters it, it is still the same. Granted, that doesn't change one's feelings, just with the way how it was done.
The "purpose" of being wild (so being tsuntsun for whatever reason) is not the same than being it for the hell of it. Acting like this to express themself is then the personality, not a tsundere trait.

As explained by Skyfall already, tsundere is a type, a category of character, not a personality as a whole, otherwise, "tsundere" would be generic (which they are already) to the point they are acting all the same, which is obviousl not the case if we take for example, Kugimiya Rie loli tsundere trio (though nagi is still debatable). Right then, you can tell Shana and Louise are diametrally different in their tsundere-ism. That proves tsundere is rather a trait of personality, not the personality as a whole.
Thus, having some personality trait doesn't encage you into a stereotype already. that's the point. as result, being hotheaded isn't a synonym of being tsun, because the personality can be different depending on the characters. Or if you prefer, you already said "being tsun doesn't mean the character is tsundere". That's the same principle: being wild doesn't mean it is tsun.

That's why i don't see the definition as "narrow", but rather yours (as well as kinny's) are too vague. Why? because that means that any "cold" behaviour, being negative or not, affection or aversion is tsuntsun... therefor, that means that almost every character are tsundere as result.
With such vague definition, we can even claim Fuko is tsundere, or Nagisa... (that's like pretending Rena is tsundere because she has mood swing... same goes for Mion and Satoko who are NOT tsundere, because they aren't tsun to begin with...)

the definition is neutral (as i already quoted it), but it appears it is just like "moe", and people are just taking it in their view, and not exactly how "set in stone" the definition is already. Quite big debate heh...

Again, you are not explaining how you can actually claim Kyou has shown deredere, and "being embarassed by a pantsu shot" is hardly deredere.
Same goes what we saw in episode 4.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2007-10-26 at 06:19.
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Old 2007-10-26, 06:13   Link #99
Ascaloth
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I personally don't know about Kyou, but I theorize that iamandragon herself IS a tsundere. Of course, so far all we've seen is the tsun-tsun side of her, but maybe there's a dere-dere side to her that we haven't seen yet. (J/K)

Joking aside, it's almost the same case with Kyou. Maybe what we see is the tsun side of her, maybe it's not, but we still can't say whether she is a tsundere for certain until when (of if) she shows a more obvious dere-dere side of her.
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Old 2007-10-26, 06:22   Link #100
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
I personally don't know about Kyou, but I theorize that iamandragon herself IS a tsundere. Of course, so far all we've seen is the tsun-tsun side of her, but maybe there's a dere-dere side to her that we haven't seen yet. (J/K)
Maybe it is already here deredere? (j/k... except if she is a kyou MKII XD)
Quote:
Joking aside, it's almost the same case with Kyou. Maybe what we see is the tsun side of her, maybe it's not, but we still can't say whether she is a tsundere for certain until when (of if) she shows a more obvious dere-dere side of her.
Exactly, that is probably the core issue, as it is remotely not possible to figure it as nothing much happened, and since the show will probably shaft Kyou and Tomoyo routes, we might not see completely how she is.
However, if her attitude is constant, and she doesn't show a true deredere, that completely proves she is not.
As far as we can see, since the debate still goes on... we gotta need a bulletproof detail which will either confirm she is or not
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