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Old 2007-10-26, 06:53   Link #101
dgreater1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari
No, that's not what iamandragon implied. What she said is the fact that the "hot headed moments" are mistaken as tsuntsun, while it is just some friendship (which isn't always synonym of deredere). That's basically why people are debating on Kyou, whatever her aggressivity is tsun counted for tsundere or not.
I'm going to ask you a simple question... is Kyou, a person with a quick temper or not? If you answer yes, you'll be admitting she's a tsuntsun. If you answer no, I'll be stumped as to why you think she's not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari
Again, you are not explaining how you can actually claim Kyou has shown deredere, and "being embarassed by a pantsu shot" is hardly deredere.
I didn't? Actually, I don't know how many times I've explained. Anyway, what does Kyou's kind/caring/moonstruck/dazed/confused/etc. personality means? I'm leaving the deredere situation about the pantsu out because you don't want to accept it as a deredere (slightly dazed on that occassion) situation. Oh... I'm being sarcastic... Anyway, she only showed it just once but, that's already a proof of a deredere side of her. Now, if we can only see them got lock up in a dark room...

But anyway, have you read my a little bit of my explanation here? http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...8&postcount=84

one is character development (Shiraishist or traditional or whatever), the other one is personality (Modernist)
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Last edited by dgreater1; 2007-10-26 at 07:06.
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Old 2007-10-26, 07:19   Link #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgreater1 View Post
I'm going to ask you a simple question... is Kyou, a person with a quick temper or not? If you answer yes, you'll be admitting she's a tsuntsun. If you answer no, I'll be stumped as to why you think she's not.
Quick temper? relative (i know it is an evasive answer, but it is not possible to claim it). Is she easily aroused by anger? Impossible to tell regarding the situations seen, as most people would actually not be pleased with what Tomoya and Youhei did.
That said, her "true" anger happened only twice, and I can't even see her attempt to protect Botan as "result of quick tempered". Just like for Ryou, it was rather her way to protect botan quickly, whatever it is happening. Thus, not really quick tempered, but rather reckless. (so, being headstrong/harsh)
What I see her, it is aggressivity, in term of assertive behaviour.

Quote:
I didn't? Actually, I don't know how many times I've explained. Anyway, what does Kyou's kind/caring/moonstruck/dazed/confused/etc. personality means? I'm leaving the deredere situation about the pantsu out because you don't want to accept it as a deredere (slightly dazed on that occassion) situation. Oh... I'm being sarcastic...
I'm not trying to play with anyone's nerve, but no, you didn't explain in WHAT the "blushing embarassement" of the pantsu scene is a deredere. This behaviour happens 99% of the time in anime, and I don't think any girl would be proud of it.
Seriously speaking, the embarassement of such silly situation is NOT a proof of a peculiar soft side etc, more likely a self awareness about such embarassing situation. That doesn't mean Kyou doesn't have a kind side but the scene itself doesn't show anything remotely similar of being dazed and such. Otherwise, almost every female character are deredere, that's quite far fetched.

*sigh* the definition of tsundere doesn't even matter now, it is rather up to people to consider if X is tsun and Y moment was dere, and do the math.
As far as we can see with this circling debate, no one can demonstrate how it is clearly tsuntsun/deredere to end it, since both (well more like 3 factions instead) are not agreeing. So, probably more time required huh?
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Old 2007-10-26, 07:43   Link #103
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You are saying our definition is a narrow one, while yours is so broad it would place the vast majority of people under tsundere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgreater1 View Post
I'm going to ask you a simple question... is Kyou, a person with a quick temper or not? If you answer yes, you'll be admitting she's a tsuntsun. If you answer no, I'll be stumped as to why you think she's not.
How does having a quick temper translates to being tsun Again - every astronaut is a man, not every man is an astronaut. While having a short temper is traditional to tsunderes, having a short temper does not a tsundere make. You are trying to forge an absolute relation between two characteristics when they are not necessarily related.


Quote:
I didn't? Actually, I don't know how many times I've explained. Anyway, what does Kyou's kind/caring/moonstruck/dazed/confused/etc. personality means? I'm leaving the deredere situation about the pantsu out because you don't want to accept it as a deredere (slightly dazed on that occassion) situation. Oh... I'm being sarcastic... Anyway, she only showed it just once but, that's already a proof of a deredere side of her. Now, if we can only see them got lock up in a dark room...
And how does person getting embarrassed over something translates to deredere? Just like with previous, the two are not necessarily related, and once again you are applying a generalization. There are more ways besides being embarrassed to make for a dere mood, and being embarrassed is not exclusively an indicator of dere, even if it is often used that way.

You are using a generalized and out of context method here to determine whether Kyou is a tsundere or not.
Brash and violent (typical tsundere quality) - check.
Gets embarrassed over something - (typical tsundere quality) - check.
Therefore, she must be tsundere.

Sorry, but no - while Kyou indeed possesses a lot of qualities tsunderes usually do, her general behavior and mindset do not place her under this label.
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Old 2007-10-26, 08:18   Link #104
dgreater1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari
I'm not trying to play with anyone's nerve, but no, you didn't explain in WHAT the "blushing embarassement" of the pantsu scene is a deredere. This behaviour happens 99% of the time in anime, and I don't think any girl would be proud of it.
Seriously speaking, the embarassement of such silly situation is NOT a proof of a peculiar soft side etc, more likely a self awareness about such embarassing situation. That doesn't mean Kyou doesn't have a kind side but the scene itself doesn't show anything remotely similar of being dazed and such. Otherwise, almost every female character are deredere, that's quite far fetched.
Read the last part, http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...6&postcount=86, erm... not the "Anymore question?" but anyway, I didn't say almost every female character are deredere but almost all the moe girls, if not all. Being tsundere means your tsuntsun and deredere is more obvious than your other personality (I'm a modernist). So it's like this, if you're a typical moe type character and you have a tsuntsun side, I'll consider you a tsundere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari
*sigh* the definition of tsundere doesn't even matter now, it is rather up to people to consider if X is tsun and Y moment was dere, and do the math.
I didn't say that deredere is about moments. It's her deredere personality that makes the moment.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
How does having a quick temper translates to being tsun
Look at the Japanese dictionary and broaden its meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
While having a short temper is traditional to tsunderes, having a short temper does not a tsundere make.
You didn't read my previous message as well, having a short temper doesn't make you a tsundere, but it makes you a tsun but having a short temper (tsun) might make you a tsundere if you have the deredere traits (if those two are the most obvious part of that character).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
And how does person getting embarrassed over something translates to deredere? Just like with previous, the two are not necessarily related, and once again you are applying a generalization. There are more ways besides being embarrassed to make for a dere mood, and being embarrassed is not exclusively an indicator of dere, even if it is often used that way.
Getting embarrassed is a part of having a deredere personality. And I didn't narrow my definition to just be embarrassed to have a deredere mood, I did say, getting embarrassed/loving/caring/shy/adorable/etc. is in the side of being a deredere. I always put etc. because deredere isn't just one definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
You are using a generalized and out of context method here to determine whether Kyou is a tsundere or not.
Brash and violent (typical tsundere quality) - check.
Gets embarrassed over something - (typical tsundere quality) - check.
Therefore, she must be tsundere.

Sorry, but no - while Kyou indeed possesses a lot of qualities tsunderes usually do, her general behavior and mindset do not place her under this label.
That's correct, she possesses those qualities (personalities) and not just possess it, it's her most obvious personality that's why she became a tsundere. Her general behavior and mindset is what makes her a tsundere. Sigh... we're like magnets here, repelling each other...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari
As far as we can see with this circling debate, no one can demonstrate how it is clearly tsuntsun/deredere to end it, since both (well more like 3 factions instead) are not agreeing. So, probably more time required huh?
We're not really going to understand each other because we're like, talking in two different languages without knowing each other's language, so anyway, this tsundere thing is getting quite long so I think we should just stop it right here. The only thing that would weigh it is a pole which I believe wouldn't matter because the losing team would only go, "It's just diverging opinions it doesn't matter."
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Old 2007-10-26, 09:01   Link #105
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Ok, i guess we will just have to agree to disagree it seems I am willing to drop the debate ... not like we are getting anywhere
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Old 2007-10-26, 12:40   Link #106
DragoonKain3
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Just going to put my 2 cents...

The typical tsundere (as opposed to the 'classical' one, which I'll elaborate more on later, this post is going to be long) for me to qualify as one, a character must possess a number of things...

1) a tsuntsun side - very harsh in a way, through physical, verbal, or other means

2) a deredere side - some 'happy' (need to think up of a better word) feelings towards a particular character or item that they'd rather keep secret.

3) both tsuntsun and deredere must be both directed at the same person. Reason why is because if either are directed to different people, then it just means that character has different feelings towards different people.

4) tsuntsun comes out because of the need to hide deredere. This line is needed because if the cause of the tsuntsun is not because they want to hide deredere, then they might have a legitimate reason for acting tsuntsun.

5) part 4 must come out at least occasionally. This line is needed otherwise if they exhibited tsundere qualities once in a blue moon, I can't classify them as a tsundere




Let's do an easy one, take Kagami for example.
1) tsutsun = check
2) deredere = check
3) both directed at Konata? check
4) Lots of examples of this, though the most obvious one is she acts as though she's okay being in a different class when she really wants to be with the other three
5) Almost every episode? lol

Let's do another easy one, take your typical Kugimiya tsundere, like I dunno, say Louise.
1) tsuntsun = hell yeah, s&M level to boot
2) deredere = love potion, anyone? XD
3) Saitou gets the extremes of both, don't he?
4) Don't you notice Louise overdoes her S&M whenever she's jealous of Saitou spending time with a girl?
5) Let's just say it's just too damn much




Some examples who I don't consider typical tsundere

Minami Kana of this season's Minami-ke (fails #4) - She acts tsuntsun and deredere towards Fujioka. However, the reason why she acts so tsuntsun is not because she's hiding her feelings, but because of some major misunderstandings that's not related at all (which is often quite hilarious ). I can't imagine for the life of me calling her a tsundere because of that, since if the misunderstandings weren't there, she wouldn't be acting tsuntsun at all.

Asuka of NGE (fails #3)- her tsun and dere are directed to other people. AFAIK, she never directed tsun towards Kaji nor dere towards Shinji. I don't understand the need to label her as a tsundere when the simplest reason as to her actions is that she loves Kaji and she hates Shinji's guts in the tv series/movies. (And yes, I'm a diehard Asuka/Shinji shipper ^^; )

Of course, Girlfriend of Steel (1 and 2) Asuka is without a doubt tsundere, since she actually has a dere side towards Shinji.

Hinagiku of Hayate (fails #1)- Ano... where's her tsun towards Hayate? Never in my memory has Hina acted harshly against Hayate. She's been encouraging, kind and understanding towards Hayate for the past 30 episodes...




Back on topic, how about Kyou? Nope not a typical tsundere for me. If Hinagiku is lacking tsun, then Kyou is lacking dere. Kyou's harsh towards Sunohara and Okazaki because they act like idiots. If that's the only criteria we fall on, then Tomoyo should be considered as a tsundere as well, right?

The only thing Kyou has done so far that can be considered as dere would be her kick scene, of which is HIGHLY arguable considering any girl not named Suzumiya Haruhi would be embarassed if someone saw their undies. And even if it was a moment of dere, judging by her sideways glance towards Okazaki, it would've been directed towards him. The tsun? towards Sunohara at that time, so it definitely fails #3.

Of course, this might all change. Afterall, Haruhi didn't show her dere side till two thirds into the series, and so Kyou in the future might do the same.
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Old 2007-10-26, 16:11   Link #107
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Sadly, after episode 4, still no real developement of her relationship towards Tomoya, but at least we get to see her as a helpful (and if I may imply caring) person, in that she assists with the club etc. (although the request for help was rather directed at her sister.)

Due to the focus at this point being somewhat the theatre club and Fuko, we'll just have to wait and see!
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Old 2007-10-26, 16:12   Link #108
dgreater1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

1) a tsuntsun side - very harsh in a way, through physical, verbal, or other means

2) a deredere side - some 'happy' (need to think up of a better word) feelings towards a particular character or item that they'd rather keep secret.

3) both tsuntsun and deredere must be both directed at the same person. Reason why is because if either are directed to different people, then it just means that character has different feelings towards different people.

4) tsuntsun comes out because of the need to hide deredere. This line is needed because if the cause of the tsuntsun is not because they want to hide deredere, then they might have a legitimate reason for acting tsuntsun.

5) part 4 must come out at least occasionally. This line is needed otherwise if they exhibited tsundere qualities once in a blue moon, I can't classify them as a tsundere
I can't help but reply here because it's really detailed, you really explained your side well.

But, I have to disagree with some points... for me, tsundere is:

#1 tsuntsun and #2 deredere side has to be the most obvious part of her behavior (in short it should be her nature) to make her a tsundere.
#3 is not on the list for me.
#4 no complaints because that is certainly correct (It's what I call a typical tsundere specially if done most of the time) but it's not on my list because it's just a typical reaction coming from a typical tsundere. If her action is not for hiding her deredere side then there has to be a valid reason to her action so that she doesn't fall to only being a tsuntsun like the very obvious Akira.
While #5 does make a tsundere, it would be just for a certain moment which is why it won't be on my list as well (she has to be a tsuntsun but deredere in nature like I said before).

Now, the reason why Kyou is tsuntsun to me is, 1# and 2# is very evident. She always becomes quick-tempered to minor things. Would you really throw a dictionary at someone because they're carrying your pet (a quick-temper that turned her Violent Mode on towards Sunohara and only Sunohara), would you really act harsh towards someone because you see your sister talking to someone? (Towards Tomoya) She could act verbally, no need to be violent, and in fact she could act like that to some other people, as well as to her own sister (harsh in a caring/defensive/protective way). Remember when Ryou asked her sister if she really was a "bi", that's a normal tsundere reaction trying to be defensive against her sister (See the reason why #4 doesn't fall on my list? She's not really hiding her deredere part, but she's in fact a deredere.) The only difference that Kagami has to Kyou is Kyou is a much more tsun than her, and her target is multiple.

Which brings us to #3, this is where both of us conflicts. Like I said, for me, you don't need to direct your tsuntsun and deredere towards a single person. It's just a trait/part of being a tsundere, tsuntsun comes out trying to hide the deredere-ness, (very typical tsundere traits, which belongs mostly to traditional tsundere because they're trying to hide the fact that they're falling in love with the character they always gets tsuntsun with), OTOH, what I'm trying to tell is, a tsundere is a person who acts tsuntsun all the time but in fact she's also a weak person inside, and also, someone who acts tough to hide their weak side, and another one, someone who starts as tsuntsun but gradually becomes a tsundere to the point they become #4 type you're talking about. Tsundere is a flexible term about having #1 and #2 their very obvious behaviour.

And the reason why Tomoyo isn't a tsundere is because 1# (tsuntsun) is not her normal behaviour compared to Kyou. Her violent actions towards Sunohara and those other's who wants to harm her (excluding Tomoya) is just a show of self-defense on her part, it's not being tsuntsun (the definition of tsuntsun is not being violent alone, it's being quick-tempered/hotheaded/etc. --> to the point that she gets violent, when she beats up Sunohara it's more like, mess with me then you'll get it). I don't consider her being tsuntsun towards Tomoya as well, more like she's being a nag towards Tomoya.

So in short a tsundere only needs; Or if you want, to me a tsundere only needs:

1) Her tsuntsun side must be very obvious - bad attitude, quick-temper, hotblooded, harsh... (verbal violence-to->physical violence) Anyway, it's a very flexible term... just think about a hotheaded girl who always shout... you'll get the idea...

2) Her derdere side must also be obvious, but no need to make it as obvious as her tsuntsun side - cute side, shy side... erm why am I making this long, I'll make it short... her GIRLY SIDE thanks for the term Kinny, which is why I said, almost all moe characters are deredere, if not all, if you want to place Akira to the moe side, sure, but that would mean you like a person who does nothing but complain

3) Someone or something (could be separate people or animal or thing) who draws out their tsuntsun and deredere everytime. Be it a person or an animal, a stuffed toy (yeah a stuffed toy and an animal).

I use only the three important things, the others are just part of what being a tsundere is... it's not really said that you need to act your tsuntsun and deredere towards a single entity, it's not really said that you have to hide the fact that you can be a deredere. All you have to have is a tsuntsun and a deredere personality (of course it has to be very evident, and someone or something that will draw those out of you. You wouldn't be able to show their tsuntsun and deredere side evidently if you don't have someone or something to that draw out, do you?
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Old 2007-10-26, 16:18   Link #109
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Oh dear... when will the posts begin to exceed their limits and require two posts for one?

Just an old man's ramblings, nevermind...
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Old 2007-10-26, 19:03   Link #110
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looks like kyou is the most popular now. mine is a tie between tomoyo and kyou. there are way too many intersting characters in clannad that im having trouble finding out who is the best.
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Old 2007-10-26, 19:06   Link #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X207 View Post
looks like kyou is the most popular now. mine is a tie between tomoyo and kyou. there are way too many intersting characters in clannad that im having trouble finding out who is the best.

If you're basing it on post numbers, don't.


About 3/4 of the posts here are about the definition of tsundere and whether it applies to Kyou.
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Old 2007-10-26, 19:08   Link #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X207 View Post
looks like kyou is the most popular now. mine is a tie between tomoyo and kyou. there are way too many intersting characters in clannad that im having trouble finding out who is the best.
seconding Kang-kun comment.
That said, the comparison is a bit early as almost every character didn't show their full potential yet i think.
Well... it is rather personal tastes at stakes... explosive damage, or combo? you choose

As for me, the current avatar might be already enough XD. That said, Kyou is a very interesting character how she deal with everyone, and i'm wondering how her relationship was with Tomoya and Youhei, since she call them by their first names, so most likely, they were classmates from earlier grades (wild guess though).
hope we might get some "twins sisters past" usual treat... i can clearly see kyou standing between her sister and some bullies ^^"

Trivia ! something Tomoyo will never have: botan ! ^_^
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Old 2007-10-26, 19:13   Link #113
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Trivia ! something Tomoyo will never have: botan ! ^_^
But Tomoyo has silver hair, which is THE best!
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Old 2007-10-26, 19:14   Link #114
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One can always dye their hair to silver..but not all can have Botan.
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Old 2007-10-26, 19:32   Link #115
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Needs more Swinu...I mean, Botan.

Botan reminds me a lot of Potato, and I absolutely loved Potato. If Kyou somehow ends up in Eternal Fighter Zero, she MUST have an attack involving Botan in some way (sort of how Misuzu had Potato as one of her specials).

Other than that, Kyou is reminding me a lot of Kagami Hiiragi and Haruhi Suzumiya...which is awesome, by the way.
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Old 2007-10-26, 19:38   Link #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrinus View Post
Other than that, Kyou is reminding me a lot of Kagami Hiiragi and Haruhi Suzumiya...which is awesome, by the way.
In appearances or behavior?
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Old 2007-10-26, 19:42   Link #117
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
In appearances or behavior?
Both for Kagami, personality for Haruhi (it's the tie grab, I bet).
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Old 2007-10-26, 20:23   Link #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrinus View Post
Both for Kagami, personality for Haruhi (it's the tie grab, I bet).
I personally disagree: so far, the only similarities I see are in the appearances.
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Old 2007-10-27, 00:59   Link #119
DragoonKain3
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@dgreater
there is a reason why points #3-5 exists. Without those, you would be including a whole bunch of characters that people don't call tsundere. I have listed before just a small summary, but here's an indepth explanation.


Reason for #3 (tsun and dere must be drawn out by the same thing)
Nanoha, judging from the first season alone, is tsuntsun to the villain yet deredere to her friends. Nanoha = tsundere then?

If the tsun and dere aren't drawn out by the same entity, one would encapsulate the vast majority of anime protagonists as tsunderes. This is because in a typical show, the protagonist is usually very tsun to enemies and very dere to friends.

If anything, this is the 'rule' that people should include in their definitions of tsundere, because without it, they'll include a vast amount of characters that the majority of people don't consider tsundere.


Reason for #4 (tsun is the cause of the need to hide dere)
First of all, if tsun isn't caused by dere whatsoever, then people don't term that as tsundere at all.

Or these characters are termed yangire, where their tsun is caused by some other event that 'snaps' them out of their normal selves into their tsun mode.

For example, Ryuuguu Rena of Higurashi, who's famous for 'snapping' from her dere omochi-kaeri-mode into her dreaded oyashiro-mode and back. And I don't see anyone labelling her as a tsundere.

So we established that tsun must be the cause of the dere. But there's another group of characters who also acts tsun as the cause of their dere, and that's the yandere girls. But what's the difference between a yandere and a tsundere? Simple, yandere almost always use their tsun to SHOW their dere, while tsundere use it to try and HIDE it.

For example, without this, Fuyou Kaede from Shuffle and Kotonoha/Sekai from the infamous School Days would be considered as tsundere as well. All these characters exhibit tsuntsun and deredere behaviour, but people don't consider them tsundere.

Do note that the rule doesn't say 'all tsun must be used to hide dere'. A lot of tsunderes use their tsun side for other good reasons on the same character they're dere for, but I have yet to find a character people call a tsundere that doesn't try to hide their dere with their tsun in some way, shape or form.

[as an aside, people I know try and differentiate tsundere and yandere in saying tsundere is tsun on the outside and dere on the inside, while yandere is the otherway around.

Of which I counter, then what about the tsunderes who's usually dere then turn tsun, like say, Kaname Chidori of FMP fame? She's usually neutral or dere towards Sagara, and only turns tsun if either he gets too close to Tessa or he's doing something mighty stupid again. She's certainly not yandere...]


Reason for #5 (tsundere activities must be occasional)
This is mainly my 'get out of jail' card, because there's a character out there somewhere who'll possess all 4 qualities yet they only do that in one occasion. Hardly a tsundere at that.



Let me ask you, do you consider Kana, Nanoha, Rena, Kotonoha, and Sekai as tsunderes? Going by your defintion, they are tsunderes because their tsuns are very evident, and so are their deres. And God knows that there's some sort of catalyst that brings out both tsun and dere.

If you do consider them as tsunderes, then I have no problems. But if for some reason you don't consider even one character as a tsundere, then your defintion of tsundere needs to be revamped.



That's really the problem I see with the definition of tsundere running nowadays; with ill-defined definitions, those definitions are so broad that they could describe characters people don't consider tsundere at all. But if they're fine with that, then there's nothing I can do about it.
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Old 2007-10-27, 04:42   Link #120
dgreater1
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I won't answer back to your reasoning about #3 and #5 because my answer would be the same as before. But anyway, I think I finally understand the reason our thoughts isn't connecting.

First, if you're a tsundere, your tsuntsun side should always be heavier/obvious/evident than your deredere side. If you're deredere side is much heavier/obvious/evident than your tsuntsun, you won't be a tsundere, but more like a typical moe character. If you were only a Filipino, there's a single word I could say to you that would surely ring a bell and tell me, I see, I finally got it.

Tsundere = mataray ang pag-uugali, pero sa loob ay kabaitan.
Tsundere = hot-headed (tsuntsun) person but actually kind (deredere) inside. Implying that she's typically a hot-headed person but it doesn't mean she doesn't have a girly side on her. Meaning, she acts quick-tempered all the time, but will show girly sides from time to time (A simple explanation of the modern definition)

What you might be doing is weigh the deredere side much heavier than the tsuntsun side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3
Let me ask you, do you consider Kana, Nanoha, Rena, Kotonoha, and Sekai as tsunderes? Going by your defintion, they are tsunderes because their tsuns are very evident, and so are their deres. And God knows that there's some sort of catalyst that brings out both tsun and dere.

If you do consider them as tsunderes, then I have no problems. But if for some reason you don't consider even one character as a tsundere, then your defintion of tsundere needs to be revamped.
You probably know my answer if you read my above reply... if not, I'll say they're not tsundere, why? A simple answer, they're deredere in nature but shows a tsuntsun side from time to time. See the difference? As opposed to tsundere who are tsuntsun in nature (almost about everything), they will still show their deredere-ness, the characters mentioned above are usually deredere in nature (about everything) but will show their tsuntsun side from time to time (or only to opposing target) but usually, the tsuntsun-ness of a deredere type personality are really mild that it's not even close to the tsuntsun-ness of a tsundere.

***Going by your defintion, they are tsunderes because their tsuns are very evident, and so are their deres.***

This is where we didn't connect. But anyway, the tsuntsun and deredere should be evident of course, but the dere shouldn't be more obvious than the tsun because that would be weighing the person more on the typical moe side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3
Or these characters are termed yangire, where their tsun is caused by some other event that 'snaps' them out of their normal selves into their tsun mode.

For example, without this, Fuyou Kaede from Shuffle and Kotonoha/Sekai from the infamous School Days would be considered as tsundere as well. All these characters exhibit tsuntsun and deredere behaviour, but people don't consider them tsundere.
Spoiler for Shuffle / Higurashi spoilers:


And one thing, yandere/yangire doesn't mean "deredere from the start the suddenly turning tsuntsun" more like, deredere from the start then going "kokoro no yanderu"

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3
For example, Ryuuguu Rena of Higurashi, who's famous for 'snapping' from her dere omochi-kaeri-mode into her dreaded oyashiro-mode and back. And I don't see anyone labelling her as a tsundere.
You won't see anyone labelling her tsundere because first of all, she's a deredere type that would lose her mind from time to time... (definition for yangire) is a term describing a girl with a deredere personality but will snap out from time to time, but don't call it dereyan, call it yandere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3
Of which I counter, then what about the tsunderes who's usually dere then turn tsun, like say, Kaname Chidori of FMP fame? She's usually neutral or dere towards Sagara, and only turns tsun if either he gets too close to Tessa or he's doing something mighty stupid again. She's certainly not yandere...
Hmmm... there's a bit issue here you see, if you think Kaname is usually deredere, then I won't contradict you. Although, I think Kaname is more of being usually tsuntsun because Sagara is always doing something, I mean, always doing something stupid. Then she sometimes becomes deredere (sometimes the result is totally different and instead of deredere, her tsuntsun gets really high) whenever Sagara's gone. If you think her deredere is heavier than her tsuntsun, then you probably think she's just a typical moe or you probably think she's tsundere because there are occassions where she becomes all lovey dovey with Sagara or defensive towards him. But, I would label her as a tsundere because her tsuntsun side is much heavier than her deredere side. About the yandere thing... she's definitely not a yandere since because yandere is not equal to deredere--->tsundere...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3
Reason for #5 (tsundere activities must be occasional)
This is mainly my 'get out of jail' card, because there's a character out there somewhere who'll possess all 4 qualities yet they only do that in one occasion. Hardly a tsundere at that.
Yup, that term "get out of jail" card would make a tsundere moment, but what if the one who acted that isn't really a tsuntsun in nature and just acting like that to deny something that implies being a deredere? Although, if you say, the person occasionally does that, as in everytime, then that would make her a tsundere person because that's showing she's a hot-tempered person. Which is why, #5 matters but at the same time doesn't matter as well since it could be misunderstood. The only answer would be to see more of her. Which is probably most people who thinks Kyou isn't tsundere is thinking right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3
That's really the problem I see with the definition of tsundere running nowadays; with ill-defined definitions, those definitions are so broad that they could describe characters people don't consider tsundere at all. But if they're fine with that, then there's nothing I can do about it.
You just didn't understand the real definition behind... tsundere isn't about moments, it's about personality or if you want, personality in a certain moment:

Traditional Definition) A tsuntsun that gradually becomes a deredere as the story progresses. (Character development)
Modern Definition) A Tsuntsun in nature, but actually a deredere in the inside. Just remember that her tsuntsun side should be more obvious than the deredere side. But do notice that there would be times where the deredere part will be much obvious than the tsuntsun part as the story came to something like an important moment (climax/lovey dovey moments/painful moments). But she's a tsuntsun from the start so she probably would go back to being a tsuntsun after that important moment. (Personality as a whole)
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