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View Poll Results: Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 4 Rating
Perfect 10 9 8.41%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 20 18.69%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 34 31.78%
7 out of 10 : Good 24 22.43%
6 out of 10 : Average 9 8.41%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 8 7.48%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.93%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 2 1.87%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-10-29, 00:01   Link #101
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by holyman282 View Post
Yes but no matter how you look at their complaint, it always has something to do with konoe or Yuji, who just happens to hurt Shana.... You matter how you look at it, it just seems like people don't like Shana getting hurt.
But that isn't really fair to say that. From my point of view the Shana X Yuji relationship was consistently built up through out S1 with only one out of character blip (in my opinion). The out of character blip was when Yuji went spastic over Yoshida at the fair. Otherwise it was Yuji, Shana and Yoshia exploring their relationship which happen to end with what I consider with Yuji and Shana cementing theirs. The Yoshida x Yuji relationship in no way came close to the Yuji X Shana one and to make things worse for Yoshida, Ike threw in the gauntlet too (now where is this self sacrificing person now?).

So the reason why it isn't fair, is people like me who complain about Yuji's inconsistency can be accused of getting angry at Shana being hurt. That isn't right as other's and myself have written several times about why we don't like how Yuji is acting. Now just because one of the symptoms is that Shana got overly jealous at it doesn't mean we are defending her tooth and nail. Well that is speaking for myself, I shouldn't speak for others.

If the writers had written Yoshida as the main girl I still would still not like how Yuji is acting around Konoe. I hope that the writers will throw in a good reason for it like how Konoe was made to attract Yuji (someone mentioned something on these lines earlier).
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Old 2007-10-29, 03:18   Link #102
Skyfall
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Originally Posted by holyman282 View Post
Yes but no matter how you look at their complaint, it always has something to do with konoe or Yuji, who just happens to hurt Shana.... You matter how you look at it, it just seems like people don't like Shana getting hurt.
Ah, isn't that a convenient way to dismiss the arguments of others. I have no special attachment towards Shana, heck - i don't like tsunderes to begin with. I do believe Shana is actually better suited for Yuji, though this has nothing to do with the poor writing in this episode. Shana can get hurt for all what it is worth, as long as such a development is not poorly handled. Action isn't important to me (for reference - i highly enjoy shows like Aria) and i am all for good character interactions. Sadly this isn't the case here as i see many inconsistencies. But i see little reason to continue the debate if my arguments get dismissed as biased complaining.
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Old 2007-10-29, 03:33   Link #103
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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
What about all that you are Shana stuff the writers kept shoving down our throats in S1? What about the I am Yuji and not just a torch?
Just as you said - forced down Shana's throat too. In S1, there was no natural development towards romance at all: If anything it was about "Yuji is leaving! Nooooo!". The concept of love was alien to Shana to begin with, and it remains difficult too. Yuji was trying to force a new perspective on her. I don't think that him not expecting romantic interest in him from her is illofical at all.

Quote:
Yuji of all the people should understand Shana the most, more then Alastor, more then Maid-san. The reason why? He created Shana. It was his actions during S1 which gave birth to the Shana we know now. If Shana was still the Flame Haze, Yuji would be just plain dead and the Reiji Maigo would be safely tucked away in some really lucky torch.
Yes, but the concept of romantic-based JEALOUSY is still new. Except for the famous "Yuji ga suki" there was nothing substantial in this direction, and they headed this piece of evidence off in ep1, by claiming he was unable to hear her properly in the blaze. Contrived? Maybe, but not illogical.

Quote:
Personally I have no problem with Shana and Yuji's relationship having a turn for the worst if it was written well. This epi imho can only be considered well written if S1 didn't exist.
Rewatch S1 and please point out spots which contradict the current storywriting. I'm curious. Where does S1 become "romantic" in a way that Yuji could comprehend it?
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Old 2007-10-29, 03:51   Link #104
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its been a good couple years since the original Shana aired so I just wanted to confirm some things to make sure I'm sill on the right track. This Yuuji isn't the real Yuuji right? He's just one of those temp. mystes light things that replaces people when they get eaten and slowly disappear within a small amount of time. Yuuji though is a special case cause every time his flame goes out, it refills again. This is just what I remember form the first Shana.....I'm not missing anything, right?
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Old 2007-10-29, 03:57   Link #105
holyman282
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Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
Sadly this isn't the case here as i see many inconsistencies. But i see little reason to continue the debate if my arguments get dismissed as biased complaining.
It's certainly an impression i'm getting from the majority, that's not to say all. Off course Grey moon and you have some good points but I find the majority just hate it because it either lacked action (hence people are saying that it's a filler) or that Shana got hurt, this ep sucks.

I can argue the same points over and over again as well, but we each have our own set of opinions and each display a sense of stubborness.

All I can do is rehash my original argument that:
1. Yuji first of all ruled out the fact that Shana could like him early on in ep 1.
2. Just because Yuji became more perceptive doesn't automatically allow him to read the mind of Shana. The reigo mago is amazing but it can't read minds.
3. Yuji perceives his relationship with Konoe to be just that of a naieve sister needing the care of an elderly brother. Not to mention she could possibly get herself killed if she wasn't looked after. Hence he probably doesn't see what the big deal is and thus can't comprehend Shana's reactions.
4. Their relationship didn't develop that far in S1, sure there was that confession scene near the end of S1, but as Mentar said, he obviously didn't hear it. Also, even after Shana told him that she liked him in S1, things really didn't change much between their relationship after that whole manifesting alastor into this world thing. You can see that by them going to school as per normal afterwards, which further indicates that Yuji probably didn't hear it.
5. Also let's say that Yuji perhaps realises that Shana's jealous, except that Yuji don't know what shana's true feelings are towards him and Shana isn't making a effort to tell him outright. In other words he shouldn't be commited to shana when she hasn't even told him how she truly felt.

This will probably be the final time I continue with this debate as well, since all I can do is to sway as many people to the positives of this ep and while various others make light of the negatives, which I don't believe to be such a big deal.

I for one, seen alot worse male leads and became undoubtedly desensitised to Yuji one small slip up this ep and found this ep to be thoroughly enjoyable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedzombie View Post
its been a good couple years since the original Shana aired so I just wanted to confirm some things to make sure I'm sill on the right track. This Yuuji isn't the real Yuuji right? He's just one of those temp. mystes light things that replaces people when they get eaten and slowly disappear within a small amount of time. Yuuji though is a special case cause every time his flame goes out, it refills again. This is just what I remember form the first Shana.....I'm not missing anything, right?
Nope you got the whole picture.
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Old 2007-10-29, 04:57   Link #106
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Rewatch S1 and please point out spots which contradict the current storywriting. I'm curious. Where does S1 become "romantic" in a way that Yuji could comprehend it?
I don't quite get your question as I consider S1 to be very much about the romantic exploration between Shana, Yuji and Yoshida. Anyway I'll try to answer why I feel there is a contradiction in story writing.

The contradiction is in Yuji's lack of ability to see Shana's feelings for him.

Now time and time again we have been shown how sharp Yuji is, just to counter any arguments about getting extra senses from the Reiji Maigo, consider that he would not only need to be able to sense stuff, but he needs to be able to work out what it all means. The working out bit is the sharpness and his higher then the average bear perception. Now each time he acts dumb to people around him, is a contradiction is the way the writers have spent building his character up.

Lets deal with the idea that Yuji lacks experience in the romantic side of things, therefore wouldn't understand Shana's behaviour. Well as I already pointed out S1 ep1 & 2 shows Yuji does indeed have the ability to spot romantic feelings in others. Could it be he is of the type that doesn't expect anyone to like him? Well that might be the case, but he expected a kiss from Shana as a reward. Yuji doesn't seem to be one of the kiss kiss friendly Europeans! So I think he was expecting romance from her.

Yuji has been shown several times during S1 to find Shana cute, so it is not like he thinks of her as just a Flame Haze.

Yuji's relationship with Shana grew nicely during S1 (and vice vesa). I thought it was very much not only just about Yuji accepting who he is, but also accepting who he is to Shana. During his little angst session about Shana not needing him to fight to deciding that he will get stronger so he can fight with her. Isn't that why he is training so hard for? So he can fight with Shana and be with her. He stated that several times during s1. That wish may or may not be considered romantic, but added up with everything else I personally think it tends towards romantic.

Now lets consider the whole food issue. He must be plain stupid if he can't see that Yoshida's food offering isn't a bento filled with love. Now if he can see that then he must also realise that Shana's melon bread is a counter againt Yoshida's love. If he doesn't spot these blindingly obviously and overly used love love signs then again the contradiction is in how Yuji is meant to be sharp.

Yuji wanting to leave the city with Shana I don't believe can be just attributed to him wanting to protect everyone in the city. Because if that was the case he could have left any time he wanted on his own. If he is that self sacrificing he could have slit his own throat and protected everyone. Instead he rather insistent on leaving with Shana, maybe he is a coward and wants to hide behind Shana's skirt? Or maybe he already deep down inside he already has a bond with her and thats why he wants to leave with her.

Now finally with Shana using her body to shield him. Now I can't see anyway for him not to understand why she did that. He already was going on and on about a Flame Haze's duty and how is Shana only going to destroy him.

If they wrote Yuji as a blind deaf and stupid moronic monkey, then there would be no contradictions in his character, but since they made one of his attributes to be rather observant and intelligent then i think there is.
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Old 2007-10-29, 06:51   Link #107
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ahhh young love the jealousy scale has gone into overdrive. Shana i can understand why she is so upset she doesnt even understand why she feels this way it must be very confusing for her. Yuji who apparantly is oblvious to everything that is going on is not like th Yuji from the S1. I find his personality inconsistency very bothersome and some of the romance situations feel very forced. Konoe was a great way to shake things up but now it feels like she is there just for the love square if you get past the moe-ness she really is just a plot device and this whole thing has dragged on way to long, there is no way Yuji looks at Konoe any other way other than a lil sister. I dunno i really like the show and i want to have confidence in J.C. Staff ability to pull the full potential out of the series. I guess my problem is im not sure where they are trying to lead us. In all honestly nothing has really happend in the past 4 episodes. Im no where near dropping the show im just worried. Im fairly convienced now that Konoe is Hecate since everything in my prediction has started to happen except few things which might be coming in 5 6 and 7.

btw i would love to go to that Super size place damn those bowls of ramen were huge.
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Old 2007-10-29, 07:08   Link #108
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My rating on this one dropped a little. It was kinda boring, and i feel that given Yuji's previous attitude toward women who are interested in him he is acting kinda strangely toward konoe, he just seems too responsive, almost thought he wanted to lip lock there. Maybe the thing with hecate really turned him on lol

The thing i did like however is that unlike most harem (and this has turned into one), some of the girls are actually treating him like he deserves near the end I mean, he knows at least 1 of them feel about him, and really he should be able to figure out shana's problem too. Even if he doesn't know that, he should have a care for his stalker girl's feelings :P
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Old 2007-10-29, 07:32   Link #109
tabun
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I find it funny that so many just accept that Konoe is not Hecate or is in any way connected to her. Or that this now is a harem, totally ignoring any strange behaviour. Don't any of you have doubts about all this?
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Old 2007-10-29, 07:49   Link #110
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by tabun View Post
I find it funny that so many just accept that Konoe is not Hecate oder is in any way connected to her. Or that this now is a harem, totally ignoring any strange behaviour. Don't any of you have doubts about all this?
I'm thinking that the Konoe is going to be a trump card that the writers are going to use to thwap us in the face. I'm hoping for a curve ball which will make me go, oh I never expected that and the bleeping well explains why Yuji has gone all dotage on her.

I find Yuji a little too accepting that she isn't Hecate. I would of thought he would have gotten a healthy level of paranoia beaten into him in regards to Balle Masque.

I'm also wondering if Shana's jealousy isn't being also being fuelled by her sensing something from Konoe without realising it?

What ever happens I just hope it isn't one long dream sequence. Anything but that!

I wish we could get a little more insight into the world of the Guze no Tomogara, a Shanatan corner at the end of each episode I would have really enjoyed.

@Sinestra - My friends and I did something like that before. It was pretty good at the beginning, but we didn't factor for soggy noodle affect. By the time we got half way down the bowl it ended up looking like a nasty bowl of worms
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Old 2007-10-29, 09:29   Link #111
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I don't understand why there is now some Yuji harem. I, like a few others here, was actually pretty sure there would be a Yuji x Shana end to season one. I'm surprised and not particularly fond of where they're going with that as of right now.
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Old 2007-10-29, 10:12   Link #112
tabun
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I don't understand why there is now some Yuji harem. I, like a few others here, was actually pretty sure there would be a Yuji x Shana end to season one. I'm surprised and not particularly fond of where they're going with that as of right now.
...wich is exactly why I am so astonished why you accept the "harem", as you perceive it. Who knows if it will stay this way? Do you have any reason to believe it will? Would it make sense in terms of the story?

I would have expected the Shana crowd to show scepticism mostly, but not this disappointment over the harem that SnS is supposedly becoming.

Do you remember the bonfire near the end of SnS Season 1? It was bait. Bait that was laid out in the 2 episodes preceding the bonfire episode. But did anyone complain? No, because there was action. Who says the events in SnS 1 thus far may not have been another diversion or the laying out of some sort of bait as well? Just more subtle. I am still more curious than annoyed.
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Old 2007-10-29, 11:03   Link #113
lua thien
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Obviously a lot of how one views this episode depends on whether or not you think Yuuji's denseness *plausible*. In order to avoid rehashing things, I'd rather comment on a few other things:

1. The eating ramen contest was fun, because it was the first time I think we've seen Yuuji act as a competitive teenage guy--"I don't really understand it, but I won't lose!" was as priceless an expression of male competitiveness for the sake of competitiveness as I can think of. And it was neat seeing it come from, of all people, Yuuji. Although Yuuji's no coward, he rarely acts like "one of the boys," and I liked seeing him show some testosterone.

2. I'm of the opinion that Konoe really is Hecate, but obviously a version that's been sealed or something, who is also completely unaware of who she actually is. Or maybe the doll theory some of you have bandied about is what's going on. But I think the two are somehow related. My own speculation is that this is a trap of some kind for Yuuji, which he will walk into, partly because Shana won't be around to protect him, because she's been avoiding him.

Spoiler for Web spoiler of Ep. 5:


Continuing my speculation, after Yuuji walks into the trap, some combination of the following will occur:

1. Shana will have to mount a rescue op. of Yuuji

2. Yuuji himself will show of some of his new powers

3. If Konoe is Hecate, she will become herself again, and out of loyalty to Yuuji for all his help, will help him escape. The same thing will occur if Konoe is some kind of surrogate or doll separate and apart from Hecate, but connected to the latter in some way.

4. The crisis will help sort things out between Shana and Yuuji. Konoe will conveniently disappear as part of the resolution, whatever it might be.


Probably the reverse of Stockholm Syndrome in regards to Hecate's or Konoe's loyalties. The next episodes should explain a bit more about Konoe's history and answer some questions.
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Old 2007-10-29, 11:07   Link #114
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This episode sucked.

I was just left scratching my head at the end wondering what the hell just happened.

$100 says this season ends up just like the last, with no real progression at all, outside of the entire world not going to hell.
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Old 2007-10-29, 11:15   Link #115
grey_moon
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$100 says this season ends up just like the last, with no real progression at all, outside of the entire world not going to hell.
I'd settle for maid-san to get it together with skeletor!
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Old 2007-10-29, 11:42   Link #116
Master Chibi
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I'd settle for maid-san to get it together with skeletor!
Yeah there's a hugely disappointing lack of Wilma thus far (that's what I call her, shaddup).

We did get a butt shot though.

Someone cap that for me pleasssse?

(When she's talking with Margery~)
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Old 2007-10-29, 11:56   Link #117
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Yeah there's a hugely disappointing lack of Wilma thus far (that's what I call her, shaddup).

We did get a butt shot though.

Someone cap that for me pleasssse?

(When she's talking with Margery~)
Wilma is far easier to type then Wilhelmina. I bust a gut each time I try to type her name, so I find it easier to call her by Patty's maid-san.

To be honest through out my discussion with holyman, I think I know why I feel a certain disappointment in S2 so far. I blamed it on the retcon, but I think that is just the anchor of my disappointment. I realised I was hoping for much more exploration in to Margery, Wilma and other characters which I think have so much more they can show us. The retcon for me was the sign that they were going to rehash the whole YujixShanaxYoshida thing. I guess Konoe in a way is kinda a good thing as at least that gives a hopeful chance of involvement from Balle Masque.

The character interactions that do it for me in S2 is actually between Chigusa, maid-san and Shana. I think the dynamic between them is absolutely wonderful.
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Old 2007-10-29, 12:15   Link #118
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The character interactions that do it for me in S2 is actually between Chigusa, maid-san and Shana. I think the dynamic between them is absolutely wonderful.
well next ep will have interaction between the maid and Chigusa. (as said by the preview)
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Old 2007-10-29, 13:02   Link #119
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I realised I was hoping for much more exploration in to Margery
From the opening sequence we see a shot of some silver gauntlet possibly from that silver armour tomagura (?) Margery spoke about in the first season, so I expect we might get to see some more of that Margery-side-of-things. Well I hope that's the case though.
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Old 2007-10-29, 14:11   Link #120
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Despite whats been going on in the series right now its still NOT a harem I have my compliants as well but im being patient. Im having faith that J.C. knows what their doing if you think about it, its almost like everyone is positioned like in chess for the next move. I mean come on Konoe instant attachement to Yuuji all of a sudden shes like miss PETA and can talk to animals and shit,Shana feeling the way she does right now and not training Yuuji. There are plans within plans my friends
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