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Old 2007-11-05, 11:25   Link #21
Super_Gilby
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I understand that a lot of children watch anime but jeez try to pay attention to the facts, grimmjow was missing his arm, he had already fought ichigo in his mask form and took some damage, he fought shinji and they were more or less even shinji tried to finish grimmjow and he failed to do so he was caught off guard in grimm's charge when ulquoirra grabbed his sword, if grimmjow wouldve released missing arm and all he wouldve wiped the floor with shinji
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Old 2007-11-05, 11:27   Link #22
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I haven't seen every little episode or whatever but when the vizard were testing ichigo's power he couldnt use bankai because his hollow would take over and thats why the little girl was beating him around while she was in masked form if he could use his bankai he would be stronger then the girl even with hollow power which means the vizard are just captin level
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Old 2007-11-05, 11:28   Link #23
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After reading all the post above me, I've come to the conclusion that Vizards wouldn't become one(dont know how they got the hollow in them yet) with a hollow unless they had come to the very limits of their shinigami powers. Now i say this because if u take Hanataro for example, whos very weak, and gave him hollow powers, yes he'd be way more powerful than he is now but he wouldnt be able to achieve max power. I think all the Vizards have achieved their max shinigami powers before taking on the hollow powers, which i'd like to know how they came upon those powers in the first place. Anywayz it makes a little bit of sense in what i said. Although now as im typing this, those who wanted to be more powerful would also take on hollow powers but they'd be weak as hell considering they hadn't maxed out their shinigami side.

I dont know what to really say about the story of the Vizards. Theirs too much backstory left out about them and only enough evidence to speculate, but i am leaning towards what i wrote about maxing powers out.
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Old 2007-11-05, 11:42   Link #24
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Originally Posted by lequory View Post
After reading all the post above me, I've come to the conclusion that Vizards wouldn't become one(dont know how they got the hollow in them yet) with a hollow unless they had come to the very limits of their shinigami powers.
Why would you arrive to that conclusion? The reason Aizen stated that it was desirable to become a vizard/arrancar is that they don't have the same limits as normal shinigami and hollow, meaning they have a higher potential for strength. But that is not to say that someone would only become a vizard after reaching their max strength as a shinigami. Ichigo was a vizard from the moment he gained his own shinigami powers and didn't even a have zanpakuto yet.
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Old 2007-11-05, 11:44   Link #25
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The backstory of the Vizard as I understand it is that at one point they were normal Shinigami who had reached the limits of their powers, and began exploring the possibilities of using Hollow powers to complement their old ones. When Soul Society found this, they exiled them. If you go back and watch the conversation between Urahara and Ishiin after Ishiin kills the Grand Fisher, he talks a bit about this.

As far as fighting powers though, it didn't seem like Shinji used too much effort to beat around Grimmjow, and in the brief amount of time they use the power of their masks, their power levels bloom to a much greater level than the Espada's levels. As far as a released form of Espada being more powerful than a bankai-Vizard form, I really don't know because we have yet to see any of the other Vizard besides Ichigo even use their bankai.
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Old 2007-11-05, 15:13   Link #26
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Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
shinji wasn't either
who knows? all we know is that grimm still had his release left while we dont know about shinjis bankai.. look at shinjis face when grimm was about to release, it was pure feeeaaar
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Old 2007-11-05, 15:36   Link #27
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One mistake a lot of people make is assuming that being part of one class automatically means one is more powerful than another.

Yes, the Vaizard have more power than they did before they learned to use their masks/control their "inner hollow", but it doesn't mean that the weakest Vaizard is more powerful than the best Shinigami. It just means that Vaizard is stronger than he was before he was a Vaizard.

Vaizards and Arrancar both being an "expansion of potential" of the Shinigami and Hollows, respectively, they two classes can be considered equivalent, and relative ability or power would be entirely up to the individual.
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Old 2007-11-05, 15:44   Link #28
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Actually i rather think that poeple over estimate the damage Grimjow Recieved from Ichigo and Rukia... I mean, despite all the damage he took Grimjow was able to start beating around Bankai Ichigo like he was nothing. If Grimjow really did recieve as much damage as many say and was indeed greatly weakened, i would think that non-vizard Bankai Ichigo would stand more of a chance and not get flung around... And Rukia... Grimjow wasn't even really phased by her attack.

As for Grimjow's missing arm... yes, in a longer more even fight the missing arm can make a serious difference; however Grim's fight against Shinji was very fast and very one sided... all Shinji did was smack Grim around a couple of times and then blast him with a cero, i really don't see how in such a one sided fight like that, how having his other arm would have made much of a difference. Only thing it might have helped is maybe let him block some more of the cero damage

Quote:
I believed if Ichigo were to dodge Grimm's attack using his Bankai speed instead of attacking him in e 1st place, he would have easily prevented hits from Grimm just like Shinji.
Looking at the two fights tht seems rather farfetched... Ichigo was completely over powered by grim in both power and speed, there is really nothing to say that Ichigo could avoid Grim's attacks as easily as Shinji did... Shinji didn't just avoid the attacks, he did it without effort. Ichigo used lots of effort in his fight and was still getting knocked around

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But i believed while Shinji is cero-ing Grimm, he did mentioned that Grimm is a really strong opponent, theres no reason for him to hold back anything and therefore, blasting a really huge Cero on Grimm.

this could actually tells us that he does not possess a Bankai ....
Well for one thing, i've noticed a slight difference in translation between manga and anime... with manga him saying that he was not gonna give Grim an handicap, which is similar but could mean a number of things... For one thing he could only be refering to his current form and the attack he was using, as in that was the most powerful Cero blast he could use while not using any other power ups. Afterall, while it's true that he might not have Bankai, he does not use Shikai either, so it does seem he was holding atleast that much back

Quote:
Somehow, I could see it being the case that Shinji and the other vizard do not have bankai. Afterall, it would prove the power of the masks that normal shinigami who had no bankai (maybe not even shikai) could master their hollow to the point where their masks alone could grant them speed and power rivaling that of bankai Ichigo. Ichigo is still getting used to his vizard form and hasn't completed training. So the power boost he gets from his mask may be smaller compared to the others.
Actually we know that the Vizards have atleast Shikai... While ichigo was taming his hollow, the vizards had to fight him to keep him under control... one of them was using a large knife instead of a Katana, more than likely the Shikai form of his sword

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who knows? all we know is that grimm still had his release left while we dont know about shinjis bankai.. look at shinjis face when grimm was about to release, it was pure feeeaaar
Shinji has atleast a Shikai upgrade he can use... we've seen that much out of the Vizards... and y'know, i thought it was kind of hard to see Shinji's facial expression, what with the mask and all
I saw his reaction as more of a normal surprise to see Grim about to release rather than an "Oh shit!" kind of reaction.
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Old 2007-11-05, 16:27   Link #29
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Somehow, I don't think any of the Vizards were fighting seriously.

And their purpose still isn't clear.
I was hoping that Aizen would be beat and the real enemy would be the Vizard group.
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Old 2007-11-05, 23:27   Link #30
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Keep in mind that Shinji could have been a vice-captain level BEFORE obtaining his mask. Which means that Ichigo, who's obviously captain-level, would probably be the most powerful Vaizard due to his previous status.

I think the Vaizard power levels depend on how powerful of a hollow they have and their previous status. With arrancar, its pretty stable depending on how powerful they were when created. You don't really see Yammy training, now do you?

The arrancar seem pretty sure of themselves, which is why they probably aren't motivated to get better. They seem to be born with a set level until they die (unless you've got special cases like #9.) This makes me think that the Vaizard as of now are probably weaker than the arrancar, but they have the ability to actually try and get better.

It seems to me that the only reason one could advance in arrancar ranking is if they either 1) die or 2)use indirect methods.
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Old 2007-11-06, 02:10   Link #31
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Originally Posted by Jarkeler View Post
The backstory of the Vizard as I understand it is that at one point they were normal Shinigami who had reached the limits of their powers, and began exploring the possibilities of using Hollow powers to complement their old ones. When Soul Society found this, they exiled them. If you go back and watch the conversation between Urahara and Ishiin after Ishiin kills the Grand Fisher, he talks a bit about this.
this is what i was getting at...them having reached the peak of their shinigami powers and then achieving Vizard from. I thought i was being clear when i wrote my original post but i guess i wasnt. My point in saying what i did though is that it wouldnt make sense to conquer a hollow for the power when u cant even max out both sides of your powers because your shinigami side isnt maxed.
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Old 2007-11-06, 02:12   Link #32
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Originally Posted by WONDERMIKE View Post
who knows? all we know is that grimm still had his release left while we dont know about shinjis bankai.. look at shinjis face when grimm was about to release, it was pure feeeaaar
it wasn't fear..it was shock and the fact that ulqui showed up without detection and grabbed grimms sword.
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Old 2007-11-06, 02:34   Link #33
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I had made a similar thread ages back I will repeat what I had said ... Firstly if you love a character thats good but when indulging in a serious discussion take your I love XX character into a Fan Club Thread not here . Espada are overrated Vizards are underrated . Who is stronger only time will tell . Using Ichigo as measuring stick in comparision to Season 1 and Season 2 stupid . its too early to tell

* Ichigo with his mask time its safe to say is the weakest of Vizards again using him or epitomizing him as the Vizard is wrong. Let’s talk about Shinji in my books pawned GJ . In the manga, it was Shinji 1 GJ 0 minus the flashy moves given to him in the anime. Also there NO a$$ whooping in the manga during Ichigo Vs GJ 1. Ichigo was beaten badly but not whooped.

* GJ had one arm : even if GJ had 3 arms it wouldnt have changed the result . GJ was never using his arms in combat he was using his zanpakuto .

* GJ was exhausted and injured : yes he was injured and beaten . But he suffered no serious injuries . Also being an part of Espada a killing Machine he shouldn’t have time to take out a Vizard who hadn’t even released

* Shinji may not even have a shikai : It’s funny how people forget the whole Hollow training . So seriously after seeing how hard hollow submission does driving your zanpakuto into submission seem harder .

Ask yourself this Controlling Hollow / Controlling Zanpakuto, which is more brutal and harder

Shinji won against GJ so is it safe to say Vizard > Espada NO . The answer is no using GJ as a measuring stick is ridiculous ,

Spoiler for MANGA:


Now its To early to tell who is stronger it stand at an Eqinox Espada == Vizard . But my money is on Vizards
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Old 2007-11-06, 09:07   Link #34
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Old 2007-11-06, 09:10   Link #35
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Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post

* Ichigo with his mask time its safe to say is the weakest of Vizards again using him or epitomizing him as the Vizard is wrong. Let’s talk about Shinji in my books pawned GJ . In the manga, it was Shinji 1 GJ 0 minus the flashy moves given to him in the anime. Also there NO a$$ whooping in the manga during Ichigo Vs GJ 1. Ichigo was beaten badly but not whooped.
Exactly, the anime makes the fights much more severe and one-sided than they are in the manga. Especially Shinji vs. GJ imo. In the manga, Shinji barely does anything more than push Grimm back with a cero. And the damage looks more severe because Grimm was all bloody from the Getsuga Tenshou took before that. It was impressive for sure, but a not a thrashing. Shinji had the upper hand for the brief time that they fought. Is that proof he could easily own GJ? Not for me.

Hell, it's been brought up many times before that it looked like Hichigo was about to kill Hiyori the first time they fought and he was just using shikai. Hiyori<Ichigo? No. She beat the snot out of him while they were training.


Quote:
* Shinji may not even have a shikai : It’s funny how people forget the whole Hollow training . So seriously after seeing how hard hollow submission does driving your zanpakuto into submission seem harder .
True, you can't say the vizard don't have shikai (even though only one has shown his release) But what about assumptions that the vizard were all maxed-out uber shinigami who all had bankai before becoming vizard? That should mean the majority of them were former captains in SS. These guys, they are outcasts...punks. Other than maybe Shinji and Hacci, they haven't shown anything that makes me think they have the experience of very high ranking shinigami, unlike Urahara or Yoruichi.

I think they rely on their masks for the bulk of their power. Not their natural skills as shinigami. If turning an adjuchas or gillian (who naturally are maybe at the strength of a SS vice-captain or less) into an arrancar can put them at the level of a SS captain, then turning into a vizard should do the same for a low-level or average shinigami, after the fully master their hollow.

Quote:
Ask yourself this Controlling Hollow / Controlling Zanpakuto, which is more brutal and harder
That depends on the strength of the hollow don't you think? For Hiyori and Ichigo it was a grueling task. For the racer chick, it was no sweat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bocca
And their purpose still isn't clear.
I was hoping that Aizen would be beat and the real enemy would be the Vizard group.
I seriously doubt as a group that the vizard are evil. But I definitely wouldn't count out the possibility that one or more of them could turn out to be villains. They are afterall, renegades. Just having them turn out to be just extra allies for the good guys would be boring.
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Old 2007-11-06, 09:54   Link #36
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Exactly, the anime makes the fights much more severe and one-sided than they are in the manga. Especially Shinji vs. GJ imo. In the manga, Shinji barely does anything more than push Grimm back with a cero. And the damage looks more severe because Grimm was all bloody from the Getsuga Tenshou took before that. It was impressive for sure, but a not a thrashing. Shinji had the upper hand for the brief time that they fought. Is that proof he could easily own GJ? Not for me.
Exactly in the manga it was an one sided pawnage GJ had nothing in his it nary to counter Shinji . From the word go.. first the cero then being bloodied and humiliated . That pushed him to release more than getting beaten it was more to do with avenge humiliation and defeat at the hands of nobody.. to make it worse a nobody speaking with Kansai Ben accent ....

If I was a Japanese and I was so badly humiliated by a person speaking in Kansai Ben accent it would be Seppuku for me : (

Any non GJ fan would agree GJ was no match for Shinji

Quote:
True, you can't say the vizard don't have shikai
I wasnt talling about shikai
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Old 2007-11-06, 12:37   Link #37
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the only time ive seen a vizard in action was shinji vs grimjaw, when shiniji pwned grimjaws face

to me it seems vizard is ALOT stronger then the espada, or at least those below number 4 espada
ive chaned my mind, i didnt take into consideration their [both arrancar and vizard] power b4 they gained their opposites power, so far though it seems the vizard r pretty song but not sure theres a vizard strong enough to take on aizen/gin/tousen or the top 3 espada - but that doesnt mean a vizard cant b as strong as an arrancar, espada lvl or otherwise.

I think it makes sense for ken to pwn noi since noi seems to hav been an adjucas lvl hollow b4 he bcame arrancar, which would b like a vice captain doubling his power - which still isnt enough to go up against a captain.
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Old 2007-11-08, 12:59   Link #38
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Vizards should have a release also, meaning Shinji should also have at least shikai or even bankai.
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Old 2007-11-09, 23:43   Link #39
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Originally Posted by lequory View Post
it wasn't fear..it was shock and the fact that ulqui showed up without detection and grabbed grimms sword.
yea i think he was surprised at ulqui

pics of eps 140 in order from top to bottom

Spoiler for long timeline pic:
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Old 2007-11-10, 00:07   Link #40
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Originally Posted by Geta Boshi View Post
* GJ had one arm : even if GJ had 3 arms it wouldnt have changed the result . GJ was never using his arms in combat he was using his zanpakuto .
Wrong.

Take a heavy, long stick - something like a wooden broomhandle or similar.

Hold one hand behind your back (this significantly reduces your balance), and hit a vertically standing object that is about your height with the stick, holding it in your other hand.

Now, take the stick in two hands, and hit the same object.

Your power output should at least double - if not triple, because now your two hands will balance the other's weaknesses out.

Now, imagine that you are the guy holding the stick in one hand with the other behind your back, and someone else of strength equal to yours is going at you holding a similar stick in two.

Let me tell you this: you will get owned quite easily in this scenario.

There was also the rather big element of surprise, as well as the fact that Grimmjow's fight with Ichigo (maybe Rukia too - can't be too pleasant to be hit with ice with such force - but then again, it's Grimmjow we're talking about) DID wear him out. Especially because BOTH Shinji and Ichigo weilded their swords in two hands (as did Rukia, but she doesn't count).

Also, let's not forget that Espada technically have TWO release states - like Shikai and Bankai, and by the time we faced the end of Grimmjow vs. Ichigo and later vs. Shinji, both Ichigo and Shinji pulled some of their trump cards, while Grimmjow had pulled nothing.

And he only had one arm, which for someone who uses a hand-held weapon that relies mostly on brute strength and quickness of response, is a rather big handycap.

I also have reason to believe that Shinji, or any other Vaizard (that we know of) other than Ichigo doesn't have bankai. Remember - the ones that have Bankai are captains, with rare exceptions, as has been stated several times previously. We only know of two captains that ever left Soul Society alive (Tousen, Gin and Aizen don't count, because they've done so recently). Therefore, Shinji and crew aren't captains, and their chances of having bankai are rather minuscule.

Of course, that doesn't mean Grimmjow is necessarily stronger than either Shinji or Ichigo (the later still got rather badly owned in their last fight - if it wasn't for the oh-so-cliche main protagonist plotkai when a certain someone shouted words of encouragement...) But to say that he's weaker is a gross underestimation.

That, and Grimmy is La Sexta Espada, while Ichigo is one of the strongest SS has. What about the other five?

Spoiler for Manga 270-280ish:


Anyways, as for the topic itself... I personally like Espada more. I think they're more... interesting? "Mature"?
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