AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2007-11-08, 23:14   Link #321
Kyuusai
9wiki
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: State of Denial
Send a message via AIM to Kyuusai Send a message via MSN to Kyuusai Send a message via Yahoo to Kyuusai
Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Yeah, becuase you know, nothing new ever comes out of Japan.
[/sarcasm]


At least it's better than having to sit with an American adult from south who can't even do simplest percentages in his head, think Indian and Arabs are the same people, cries "terrorist!" when he sees Tunak Tunak music video, and don't even know that China, Japan, and Korea are all diffrent countries with diffrent forms of governments.
Come, now, that's answering one inappropriate generalization with another. People of that level of ignorance are found in all parts of the US... and all parts of any other nation (even the first-world, well educated ones).

At least the stereotype of Japanese and German education being composed of strict, wrote-memorization and regurgitated facts isn't all bad: As I told a German friend, we lazy Americans need some one to take our inventions and then build them right.
__________________

I await patiently
the gift promised to me.
Kyuusai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-08, 23:19   Link #322
aohige
( ಠ_ಠ)
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuusai View Post
Come, now, that's answering one inappropriate generalization with another.
That was the point.
__________________
aohige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-08, 23:57   Link #323
Kyuusai
9wiki
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: State of Denial
Send a message via AIM to Kyuusai Send a message via MSN to Kyuusai Send a message via Yahoo to Kyuusai
Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
That was the point.
Sorry. I frequently hear people say very, very similar things and be completely serious when they say them. Nonetheless, I should have given you the benefit of the doubt.
__________________

I await patiently
the gift promised to me.
Kyuusai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-09, 00:06   Link #324
Terrestrial Dream
勇者
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tesla Leicht Institute
Age: 24
Only thing that I will criticize on Japanese education will be with their histroy. Though I do think that the way they teach history in East Asia is kind of bad since it only teaches them to only to learn and not to think on the subject as much.
__________________
Terrestrial Dream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-09, 00:10   Link #325
Rembr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
How is the west's teaching more pro-learning?
I've taken history from both sides. They're about the same.
And really, pre-high school, the classes are pretty much taught the same way. Massive data cramming comes from college entrance, which is high fucking pressure because of what it is in Japan.
Rembr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-09, 00:19   Link #326
Terrestrial Dream
勇者
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tesla Leicht Institute
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rembr View Post
How is the west's teaching more pro-learning?
I've taken history from both sides. They're about the same.
And really, pre-high school, the classes are pretty much taught the same way. Massive data cramming comes from college entrance, which is high fucking pressure because of what it is in Japan.
What I meant was that the west isn't more pro learning (though I did edit the word west out since I think I worded my post wrong), but when it comes to history I do think that west would do a better job. Just simply in western world it teaches people to think more then the eastern culture, so imo when learning history one has to be critical and question it, since history isn't black and white.
__________________
Terrestrial Dream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-09, 02:14   Link #327
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Hmmm, I believe the thread is about japanese culture (not just their educational system) so we shouldn't steer to far into one specific aspect or another... for very long at least.

I've seen some pretty lame teaching of history in the West (no thinking! only rightthinking and regurg!) so sweeping generalizations can be inaccurate. On the other hand, the Okinawans recently demonstrated that not everyone agrees on history even within Japan.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-09, 02:15   Link #328
Kaioshin Sama
Banned
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Neither Here nor There
Age: 29
Send a message via MSN to Kaioshin Sama
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperlion View Post
What I meant was that the west isn't more pro learning (though I did edit the word west out since I think I worded my post wrong), but when it comes to history I do think that west would do a better job. Just simply in western world it teaches people to think more then the eastern culture, so imo when learning history one has to be critical and question it, since history isn't black and white.
Wasn't the Abe Administration also criticized for trying to censor history textbooks that didn't portray Japan in a particularly good light during WWII, but were found to be historically accurate and accredited. Wouldn't this also imply that Japan has had it's bouts over bias and accuracy in the classroom.
Kaioshin Sama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-09, 02:29   Link #329
aohige
( ಠ_ಠ)
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I've seen some pretty lame teaching of history in the West (no thinking! only rightthinking and regurg!) so sweeping generalizations can be inaccurate. On the other hand, the Okinawans recently demonstrated that not everyone agrees on history even within Japan.
So have I. In a Texan public school, I once saw a history teacher who taught that Roman Empire was the largest empire in history, and when a student corrected him by mentioning the Monglian empire, he was disciplined.
He was very subjectively pro-confederate while teaching the American Civil War, and when covering the Vietnam War, he repeatedly insisted that US did not "lose" the war, they simply retreated.

The man's real job was a coach for the school's football team, btw.

So to hyperlion:
Western history classes does not "do better job" than those in the east.
__________________
aohige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-09, 04:23   Link #330
Tri-ring
The Censor Bat
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land of the rising sun
I have taken history lessons in both Japanese and American and both seemed biased to each other's advantage and debating pre-WW2 history it is a complete bi-polar argument.
Japanese education does not handle much of it and the US handles it so much from the American's view it really is narrow from my point of view. The western side ignores on how white supremacy affected judgement during that period. Yes it teaches what had happened but it does not go into depth on why it happened.

I know I am basing my opinion on knowlege I accumulated 20 odd years ago but I really do not think it had much changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige
Yeah, becuase you know, nothing new ever comes out of Japan.
[/sarcasm]
I am a Japanese, and I know exactly what I am saying. Yes Japanese come out with something new BUT it is far and few and the process is painfully long and most of the meeting becomes out of focus I am afraid.
Tri-ring is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-09, 08:15   Link #331
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
The japanese style of long and patient consensus building has its advantages and disadvantages (in meetings ). I do work with japanese national customers and partners in some of my contract work and end up having to advise my american peers at times on their "loud, rash, and noisy" techniques that alarm the japanese
(and vice versa). Consensus building always takes longer... and more frequently results in nothing but turf being protected rather than innovation. But then I've seen a parallel problem in large American corporate structures. The smaller corporations and such tend to be more nimble creatures who succeed more famously (but also fail spectacularly).
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-09, 11:39   Link #332
aohige
( ಠ_ಠ)
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
I am a Japanese, and I know exactly what I am saying. Yes Japanese come out with something new BUT it is far and few and the process is painfully long and most of the meeting becomes out of focus I am afraid.
Well, so am I.
I've spent half my life in Japan, and half my life in US. (about 16 years each in both)
So I have good understanding of both cultures, and its advantages and shortcumings. Probably more so than most people in either countries.

When I make fun of Americans OR Japanese, I'm really making fun of myself.
__________________
aohige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-09, 15:07   Link #333
Terrestrial Dream
勇者
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tesla Leicht Institute
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
So have I. In a Texan public school, I once saw a history teacher who taught that Roman Empire was the largest empire in history, and when a student corrected him by mentioning the Monglian empire, he was disciplined.
He was very subjectively pro-confederate while teaching the American Civil War, and when covering the Vietnam War, he repeatedly insisted that US did not "lose" the war, they simply retreated.

The man's real job was a coach for the school's football team, btw.

So to hyperlion:
Western history classes does not "do better job" than those in the east.
Well that's just one class and my history teacher teaches us to be very critical and ask questions. And this is just what I think, western culture is more open to free thinking then the eastern culture, in the west there were many great thinkers like John Locke, Thomas Hoobes, Henry Thoreau (only on civil disobediences really), and others from enlightenment era. So looking at that I do think that western culture do promote more of free thinking and which I think is really needed for teaching history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama View Post
Wasn't the Abe Administration also criticized for trying to censor history textbooks that didn't portray Japan in a particularly good light during WWII, but were found to be historically accurate and accredited. Wouldn't this also imply that Japan has had it's bouts over bias and accuracy in the classroom.
I heard about that but I don't much about it, as far as I heard it was about comfort women during World War II.
__________________

Last edited by Terrestrial Dream; 2007-11-09 at 15:29.
Terrestrial Dream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-09, 16:43   Link #334
Autumn Demon
~
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ithaca, NY
Age: 25
The schools in my district (a small town in north NJ) have been a lot more about writing/thinking than about testing/memorization. History classes are largely about testing during earlier grades but by high school testing is a much smaller part of the class and the tests we do have are usually more about writing. I think I've written more essays in my history classes than I have in my English classes.
But my high school is probably in the top 10 or 5% in the country for public high schools because my town is rich, which brings me to my next question about schools in Japan...



In America, how good schools are in a school district is largely about how rich the school district is. Towns with lots of wealthy people will usually have lots of money going into the town's schools, so the schools will consequently be among the best of public schools. Towns with mostly poor people will usually have small amounts of money going into the town's schools, and consequently the schools will usually be of poorer quality.
The difference between good public schools and bad public schools can be GIGANTIC within the same state, and consequently the achievements gaps between the rich and poor are huge in education.

Does Japan have an educational system like this where children of richer people are given better education than children of poorer people? I'm asking about public schooling foremost; but am also interested to know what private schools can do for people of the various socioeconomic backgrounds.
Autumn Demon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-09, 17:36   Link #335
Tri-ring
The Censor Bat
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land of the rising sun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Autumn Demon View Post
The schools in my district (a small town in north NJ) have been a lot more about writing/thinking than about testing/memorization. History classes are largely about testing during earlier grades but by high school testing is a much smaller part of the class and the tests we do have are usually more about writing. I think I've written more essays in my history classes than I have in my English classes.
But my high school is probably in the top 10 or 5% in the country for public high schools because my town is rich, which brings me to my next question about schools in Japan...
In America, how good schools are in a school district is largely about how rich the school district is. Towns with lots of wealthy people will usually have lots of money going into the town's schools, so the schools will consequently be among the best of public schools. Towns with mostly poor people will usually have small amounts of money going into the town's schools, and consequently the schools will usually be of poorer quality.
The difference between good public schools and bad public schools can be GIGANTIC within the same state, and consequently the achievements gaps between the rich and poor are huge in education.

Does Japan have an educational system like this where children of richer people are given better education than children of poorer people? I'm asking about public schooling foremost; but am also interested to know what private schools can do for people of the various socioeconomic backgrounds.
Not really since funding of schooling is done by prefectures and not by counties like the US.
Also the education curriculum is fairly regulated by the national board of education so what is taught should not vary from one area to the next. In other words, it is much a cookie cutter type education system.

One thing I like to say in defence about history classes in Japanese schools is that Japan has a long history, about 1500 years in recorded history so it takes time to cover it and then we have to spend about the same time to cover world history again 1500 years so you don't get much time to do in details of a certain era.
Memorizing all the dates, names of people, places, treaties and so on, is a pain and more over it is completely a rushed job but I guess it can't be helped if you want to give an overall view of history.
Tri-ring is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-09, 20:44   Link #336
aohige
( ಠ_ಠ)
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperlion View Post
And this is just what I think, western culture is more open to free thinking then the eastern culture
Have you actually lived in both cultures?
Or are you saying this from completely western standpoint?

If it's the former, I would repect it. But if it's the latter, it would be bit of an arrogant form of prejudice. Not that I'm any less guilty of it.
__________________
aohige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-09, 21:13   Link #337
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
And this is just what I think, western culture is more open to free thinking then the eastern culture, in the west there were many great thinkers like John Locke, Thomas Hoobes, Henry Thoreau (only on civil disobediences really), and others from enlightenment era.
If you really think the enlightenment era was all about open minds, you'd better think again. In a sense it upheld an extremely closed perspective of the world, one where the Descartian values of "universal truth" were unquestionable and the belief of everything being explainable using Newtonian physics was ultimate. Not that it was a negative era, but let's look at it like it really was. If you were to compare it to current times, the enlightenment scientists would be extremely closed-minded.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-09, 22:01   Link #338
X10A_Freedom
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Neo-Venezia...I wish!
Ahh, John Locke reminds me of IPR laws and how it has problems when it comes to joint inventions, but that's another story.

I guess it is only natural for a country to paint itself as good an image as possible. I don't agree with this at all but it is the reality. I was in the Japanese education system until Primary 2 and we were told/watched various stories based on the "war". Basically, all us kids knew was that Japan was in a war in the past and got bombed badly, killing lots of families and civilians.

Me, being a cynic take this to be the start of the "brainwashing" process (which I hear so much about but never had the chance to experience it myself) by first invoking the emotional feelings of little kids. What we see and learn as kids unconsciously form our adult personalities and opinions in the future.

Now, I like Imperial War Museums and checking out controversies. My parents were far less than amused when I felt like checking out Yasukuni so I didn't.

Since this seems biased against Japan, let me remind you of an earlier post about the USA simply "withdrawing" from the Vietnam War. Another form of "brainwash". Happens everywhere.

For the record, I'm a Hong Konger who grew up in Japan for 5 years, UK for 2.5 years, and Hong Kong for 10 years. I'm now back in the UK, as an undergrad.


Edit: To add to the topic, the world is a whole mix of a countless number of people, races and culture with a hugely diverse history. I believe no one culture is superior to the other. Every country and culture has its pros and cons. Hong Kong is a highly efficient city criticised for its lack of innovation. The UK on the other hand is very artistic, "loose" and more creative but nowhere near as efficient as Hong Kong.
X10A_Freedom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-09, 22:02   Link #339
Terrestrial Dream
勇者
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tesla Leicht Institute
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Have you actually lived in both cultures?
Or are you saying this from completely western standpoint?

If it's the former, I would repect it. But if it's the latter, it would be bit of an arrogant form of prejudice. Not that I'm any less guilty of it.
I was born and lived 10 years in Korea, 7months in China and now I have lived in the US for 7 years. So I am not a western , and I lived in both cultures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
If you really think the enlightenment era was all about open minds, you'd better think again. In a sense it upheld an extremely closed perspective of the world, one where the Descartian values of "universal truth" were unquestionable and the belief of everything being explainable using Newtonian physics was ultimate. Not that it was a negative era, but let's look at it like it really was. If you were to compare it to current times, the enlightenment scientists would be extremely closed-minded.
Well still for for it's time their idea was pretty different and they were thinking of new ideas at that time. So I would say that their way of thinking was more open then the east.
Quote:
Originally Posted by X10A_Freedom View Post
Ahh, John Locke reminds me of IPR laws and how it has problems when it comes to joint inventions, but that's another story.

I guess it is only natural for a country to paint itself as good an image as possible. I don't agree with this at all but it is the reality. I was in the Japanese education system until Primary 2 and we were told/watched various stories based on the "war". Basically, all us kids knew was that Japan was in a war in the past and got bombed badly, killing lots of families and civilians.

Me, being a cynic take this to be the start of the "brainwashing" process (which I hear so much about but never had the chance to experience it myself) by first invoking the emotional feelings of little kids. What we see and learn as kids unconsciously form our adult personalities and opinions in the future.

Now, I like Imperial War Museums and checking out controversies. My parents were far less than amused when I felt like checking out Yasukuni so I didn't.

Since this seems biased against Japan, let me remind you of an earlier post about the USA simply "withdrawing" from the Vietnam War. Another form of "brainwash". Happens everywhere.

For the record, I'm a Hong Konger who grew up in Japan for 5 years, UK for 2.5 years, and Hong Kong for 10 years. I'm now back in the UK, as an undergrad.


Edit: To add to the topic, the world is a whole mix of a countless number of people, races and culture with a hugely diverse history. I believe no one culture is superior to the other. Every country and culture has its pros and cons. Hong Kong is a highly efficient city criticised for its lack of innovation. The UK on the other hand is very artistic, "loose" and more creative but nowhere near as efficient as Hong Kong.
Reminds me of the US with Gautemala, when I heard what the US did it I was disgusted. Bribing the press to lie about the real events, and setting up a dictatorship in that country while they were supposing to be the protector of the freedom during the cold war. Also in Vietnam lying about Gulf of tonkin to the public (well it was only LBJ but still...).
__________________

Last edited by Terrestrial Dream; 2007-11-09 at 22:18.
Terrestrial Dream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-11-09, 22:53   Link #340
Slice of Life
eyewitness
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
I detect some lack of critical thinking here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuusai View Post
At least the stereotype of Japanese and German education being composed of strict, wrote-memorization and regurgitated facts isn't all bad:
Ow, ow, ow. nice that you think that "it isn't all bad", but sadly, it's bull. Where did you get that from? Check your sources, please. I am German and I can tell you exactly how all my history exams in the higher grades looked like: First, you had to prove that you are able to understand and summarize a given text, a primary or secondary source, second, you had to put it into a broader historical context, and third, you had to formulate an opinion about one of the points raised. in other words, you had to write texts, not fill in multiple choice tests about in which battle Napoleon fought when, where, and against whom. And I can't remember having actively memorized much dates at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autumn Demon View Post
The schools in my district (a small town in north NJ) have been a lot more about writing/thinking than about testing/memorization. History classes are largely about testing during earlier grades but by high school testing is a much smaller part of the class and the tests we do have are usually more about writing.
Yes, pretty much like this.

Oh, and if you asked a German in the street about education in Japan then his very loosely fact-based prejudice would probably be that it is "being composed of strict, wrote-memorization and regurgitated facts". And depending on if he's more right-leaning or more left-leaning he'd probably add that it is a shame that Japanese kids learn so eagerly while ours slacking around or that it is a shame that the Japanese only teach useless facts to their children instead of teaching them how to think. That all looks pretty familiar to you, I guess.

And furthermore,
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperlion View Post
Well that's just one class and my history teacher teaches us to be very critical and ask questions. And this is just what I think, western culture is more open to free thinking then the eastern culture, in the west there were many great thinkers like John Locke, Thomas Hoobes, Henry Thoreau
... when the first three thinkers of the Enlightenment that cone to your mind are all from the country where you get your education (loosely speaking, I think being from the UK counts from an American point of view, when it's pre-1776) what does that say about teaching facts and teaching critical thinking?

So bottom line: stones - glasshouse, speck - eye - plank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandering Knight
If you really think the enlightenment era was all about open minds, you'd better think again. In a sense it upheld an extremely closed perspective of the world, one where the Descartian values of "universal truth" were unquestionable and the belief of everything being explainable using Newtonian physics was ultimate. Not that it was a negative era, but let's look at it like it really was. If you were to compare it to current times, the enlightenment scientists would be extremely closed-minded.
You have to judge people by the time they lived in, not by your 2007 mindset which has been shaped not the least thanks to these people. Not only scientists, we all stand on the shoulders of giants.
__________________
- Any ideas how to fill this space?
Slice of Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
culture, discussion, japan, japanese culture

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 21:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.