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Old 2007-11-09, 01:09   Link #601
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiramuro View Post
Okay so you are telling me that it's impossible to split an hour long episode into 6 acts and have 6 separate teams working on each with some general guidance from an overall rough sketchboard?
It's not impossible, but it would run completely counter to the way anime companies make their productions.

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Originally Posted by kiramuro View Post
As far as the quality of worksmanship again isn't that an issue of the budget available since with more money you can hire more high-caliber artists who are all equally creative.
It's not really an issue of high-caliber artists; it's more a question of production techniques and consistency. The Japanese model of animation has certain advantages, but it doesn't really allow for the kind of decentralized work that you're talking about. Moreover, Japanese business practices don't really allow for outlaying too much money on any one project - hence you'll never see a $3 million per episode anime. Most anime episodes are made on something like 2,500,000 yen for a very good reason.

I'm not really qualified to talk about the technical aspects of animation production, so check out this link if you're interested in the subject. It's very long, but fascinating stuff. Peter Chung's insights are particularly eye-opening.
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Old 2007-11-10, 01:37   Link #602
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Is it because Japanese tend to actually try squeezing in everything once there is a given, set budget...because it is a part of their culture? I have read Peter Chung's posts and some of the others who contributed to the discussion. It is essentially different at production level, and that Japanese animation usually costs less than an American one for the price of freedom. Even so, it didn't really prove itself (Japanese animation studio techniques) in terms of what happened to Destiny (recycled scenes), and some of the other not as good anime you think you have seen lately. so yes the question of budget is still there. I mean, as there is the sakkan ( a sort of director-jack of all trades in the Japanese animation profession) to actually redo all fails in terms of halfhearted attempts of animation made by the junior animation staff, low pay for each panel made (200 yen per PANEL/PAGE?! ), and the reluctance of adhering to the Western animation techniques, yes, Japanese animation is really low budgeted. But I still love it in comparison to, as one poster in there said it, "homogenized" Disney. LOL.
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Old 2007-11-10, 17:33   Link #603
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4tran, you made some good points, but I cannot say I totally agree. For one, I believe budget IS an issue. It is true, a 30 minute anime does cost less than a similar American production.

However, to keep things short, Japan does a better job in spending its allocated funds than their American counterparts (but then, thats American corporatism at fault). Although people seem to forget, much of the anime we see these days are really not animated by Japanese studios, except certain feature films that require serious quality work. Most of the animations are done elsewhere, in China or Korea. Moreover, there are far more serious anime companies at work at any given time (thus allowing more effective production) than American cartoon companies, which are often part of a larger studio.

Another thing, most people miss this, but cartoon studios get to do this one thing, re-runs. Yeah, you give em a good budget to make 10 unrelated episodes, slap it on TV, and if the ratings are good, you get money to make more! You are not going to see that happening with stuff like Gundam.

Still, even with the given budget though, Saturday morning cartoons just aren't really that good, and I am not talking about the plague that is Disnified homogenization. It makes you wonder where they spent their money~

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Old 2007-11-10, 18:59   Link #604
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My argument is that, due to the nature of Japanese anime production, increasing the budget will not necessarily allow a 1-hour format show to be broadcast on a weekly basis. Whether increasing the budget will improve a show's quality is incidental to this line of argumentation.
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Old 2007-11-10, 21:21   Link #605
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... well 4Tran, lets just say, this is a good example of topic drift(tm)!

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Old 2007-11-10, 22:53   Link #606
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
... well 4Tran, lets just say, this is a good example of topic drift(tm)!

- Tak
It's a bit related to the topic as some of us wants hour long episodes for the 3rd C.E. series. I went a bit further and wished for a full 2 seasons of hour long episodes.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
My argument is that, due to the nature of Japanese anime production, increasing the budget will not necessarily allow a 1-hour format show to be broadcast on a weekly basis. Whether increasing the budget will improve a show's quality is incidental to this line of argumentation.
Didn't say that no change is required. Obviously some sort of evolution is required before we'll see hour long anime shows on a more consistent basis. The budget issue is quite understandable. American production companies can in general afford to take the risk due to the economy of scale in which they enjoy.
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Old 2007-11-10, 23:34   Link #607
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@ kiramuro

Yes, there is that, and if you have read Peter Chung and other people who have discussed American and Japanese animation studios in the link 4Tran provided, there is also the availability of a lot of compartmentalized jobs for American cartoon animators (like there are the animators, sub animators, sub sub animators, sub sub sub animators...and so on and so forth) and the fact that they also PAY A LOT to their Korean and Chinese sub contractors (and some in the Philippines...I know for a fact that Toei has an office here, as well as Hanna Barbera) more than their Japanese animation studios, and that Japanese animation studios comprise only of a few people and their work mostly cut out for them by the sakkan. Also, Japanese animators are paid for by the panel. So if they send their best work to the director for final approval, if the sakkan himself thinks that there is something wrong or that the director sees something wrong with it, the sakkan would change the drawings and the timing that would satisfy the director, which led me to think that either only their best drawings get paid and those not edited by the sakkan, or they still get paid in spite of the crappy work as they know sakkan will probably edit it...I will read the thread again perhaps later to confirm it as I am currently working on an assignment from work, LOL. anyway, that is one of the many major reasons why, as 4Tran said, Japanese will go at a 3 million dollar per episode show.

But that said, I still believe that budget is an issue here, as was already proven by some of the recent anime shows that make us wonder, where the budget went, as I have already stated above. And given the many differences that both American and Japanese animation studios both have, it would still prove to be very hard to merge both takes on the work that is animation, but there already was one anime/cartoon I think that was mentioned by the people in the link 4Tran provided that tried merging American and Japanese studio techniques...Mighty Orbots. But they ended up thinking that the other side didn't know what they were doing or something, LOL. as long as Japanese wouldn't want their creative expression to suffer from the same kind of cut and paste and cloned process that is American animation, I highly doubt that there would be a new kind of instant animation revolution to take place.
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Old 2007-11-10, 23:54   Link #608
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
@ kiramuro
and the fact that they also PAY A LOT to their Korean and Chinese sub contractors
Not quite. Compared to Japanese standards, the pay to their Korean, and especially their Chinese sub-contractors? Very pathetic in comparison.

And when reading the credits at the end of every episode, it screams discrimination every time.

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Old 2007-11-11, 09:51   Link #609
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3 million dollar per episode show.
There IS a 3 million $ per episode show!?


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Not quite. Compared to Japanese standards, the pay to their Korean, and especially their Chinese sub-contractors? Very pathetic in comparison.

And when reading the credits at the end of every episode, it screams discrimination every time.
very sad indeed...What about the the simpsons btw?
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Old 2007-11-11, 10:56   Link #610
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I don't... really... watch the Simpsons...

*Dons on flame-resistant suit*

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Old 2007-11-11, 15:01   Link #611
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
I don't... really... watch the Simpsons...

*Dons on flame-resistant suit*

- Tak (When everything fails, think what would Homer do. DOH!!)
Do u watch South Park and Family Guy instead?
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Old 2007-11-11, 16:48   Link #612
kiramuro
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
@ kiramuro

Yes, there is that, and if you have read Peter Chung and other people who have discussed American and Japanese animation studios in the link 4Tran provided, there is also the availability of a lot of compartmentalized jobs for American cartoon animators (like there are the animators, sub animators, sub sub animators, sub sub sub animators...and so on and so forth) and the fact that they also PAY A LOT to their Korean and Chinese sub contractors (and some in the Philippines...I know for a fact that Toei has an office here, as well as Hanna Barbera) more than their Japanese animation studios, and that Japanese animation studios comprise only of a few people and their work mostly cut out for them by the sakkan. Also, Japanese animators are paid for by the panel. So if they send their best work to the director for final approval, if the sakkan himself thinks that there is something wrong or that the director sees something wrong with it, the sakkan would change the drawings and the timing that would satisfy the director, which led me to think that either only their best drawings get paid and those not edited by the sakkan, or they still get paid in spite of the crappy work as they know sakkan will probably edit it...I will read the thread again perhaps later to confirm it as I am currently working on an assignment from work, LOL. anyway, that is one of the many major reasons why, as 4Tran said, Japanese will go at a 3 million dollar per episode show.

But that said, I still believe that budget is an issue here, as was already proven by some of the recent anime shows that make us wonder, where the budget went, as I have already stated above. And given the many differences that both American and Japanese animation studios both have, it would still prove to be very hard to merge both takes on the work that is animation, but there already was one anime/cartoon I think that was mentioned by the people in the link 4Tran provided that tried merging American and Japanese studio techniques...Mighty Orbots. But they ended up thinking that the other side didn't know what they were doing or something, LOL. as long as Japanese wouldn't want their creative expression to suffer from the same kind of cut and paste and cloned process that is American animation, I highly doubt that there would be a new kind of instant animation revolution to take place.
Of course animated shows shouldn't cost that much (Simpsons is only around $1 mil nowdays?). I picked $3 mil mark only as an example. I just think with the popularity of the CE gundam it shouldn't be so crippled (relatively speaking) so much in the budget department. How many Seed/Destiny DVDs have been sold far world-wide? Hell consider its popularity it should at least have a similar budget as that of the Simpsons. From what you just described though it seems that anime shows will always have small budgets unless the medium finally gains a sizable audience in North America so at that point our TV industry will pick it up and of course completely ruins anime as we know it.


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Originally Posted by kaito-kid View Post
There IS a 3 million $ per episode show!?

Not any animated show but then again I picked the average budget of equally popular live action shows here in the US compared with that of CE Gundam shows.

A lot of our current prime time TV shows actually exceeds the $3 million mark per. I have no idea what 24 is costing now days but you can bet it's a lot more that $3 mil. I remember the 2-hour Lost pilot costing something like $13 million. The average probably fluctuates around $3 mil to $4 mil.

Even niche shows would have more than $1 million per episode. I remember Star Trek TNG costing something like $1.5 millino per episode and this was back in the late 80s.
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Old 2007-11-11, 18:57   Link #613
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Do u watch South Park and Family Guy instead?
Ah, South Park I watch, but thats pretty much it.

Though I pretty much stopped watching since the movie.

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Old 2007-11-12, 05:37   Link #614
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And here I have no idea where the slightest suggestion of how "GSD was a big disappointment" came from. Seriously now, aside from a very small minority, GSD is bloody popular amongst serious and casual Gundam fans.

- Tak
Im guessing there are 2 groups here

group 1 who thinks Gundam seed destiny is crap
group 2 who cant understand whats so crap about it
Gundam Seed was better then destiny but not not much better there both amazing series.
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Old 2007-11-12, 11:41   Link #615
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Originally Posted by kiramuro View Post
Of course animated shows shouldn't cost that much (Simpsons is only around $1 mil nowdays?). I picked $3 mil mark only as an example. I just think with the popularity of the CE gundam it shouldn't be so crippled (relatively speaking) so much in the budget department. How many Seed/Destiny DVDs have been sold far world-wide?
While Seed and Destiny made both Sunrise and Bandai a lot of money, Japanese companies tend to be very conservative, so they're not so likely to spend that kind of money on anime. At most, you'll see the odd show with double the normal budget (All the way to 2% of your $3 million!), but rarely any more than that. What the Japanese companies do is to bank the money and use it to create more new shows - Gundam 00 is the direct beneficiay of Seed's success.
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Old 2007-11-12, 12:43   Link #616
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Which in turn, also explains the existence of foreign animation sub-contractors. The Japanese companies are really trying to make things cheap and conserve their funds. Yeah, some better scenes might be animated in Japan, but a majority of the scenes will be taken care of by other sub-contractors.

Unless they have a film in mind. Such as Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence, which cost a whopping $20 million US!

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Old 2007-11-12, 13:14   Link #617
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The popularity of franchises and shows in Japan don't often translate to being handled and animated with the money and manpower proportional to the popularity. Gundam shows, ironically, bar OVAs, etc don't even stand among Sunrise's better works of 'animation' as a whole.
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Old 2007-11-12, 16:28   Link #618
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The popularity of franchises and shows in Japan don't often translate to being handled and animated with the money and manpower proportional to the popularity. Gundam shows, ironically, bar OVAs, etc don't even stand among Sunrise's better works of 'animation' as a whole.
And, with some irony, they actually handled the spankin' new Mai-Hime/Otome projects with a lot better quality control than most of the stuff I've seen from them.

Besides, Naomi Shindō kicked ass. Some might not like her as Cagali Yula Athha, but most will definitely love her as Shizuru.

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Old 2007-11-12, 23:13   Link #619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Not quite. Compared to Japanese standards, the pay to their Korean, and especially their Chinese sub-contractors? Very pathetic in comparison.

And when reading the credits at the end of every episode, it screams discrimination every time.

- Tak
I am not really sure, but I guess the pay depends on how many panels submitted by the animators themselves that are in no way retouched by the sakkan that they actually get paid for it. >.<;; Or maybe since the subcontractors dollars > yen, they shy away from Japanese productions. Anyway, the thread in the link is in some way confusing, maybe I have it all backwards. I will try reading through it again. So I do apologize if that was ever the case.

I have enjoyed the Simpsons, South Park and Family Guy. They're pretty cool cartoons who do make good satire of the current American political, entertainment and normal situations that are in some way disturbing but informative at the same time. I am pretty sure the Simpsons didn't get to live that long just for the same formulaic cartoon episode every single day of their many many seasons of airtime.

@ 4Tran

LOL, it is really ironic if that is the case. In the Philippines, if people liked/loved the show, producers sometimes extend the series using the budget they got from the show itself, which is in some bad or good, depending on what aspect of the story they are willing to "enhance". Or sometimes make spinoff series. For the Filipinos of this thread, they could probably see the "Encantadia" VS "Etheria" and the "Ikalawang Aklat" to "Umpteenth Aklat" syndrome used by one local TV channel here. But I find it curious on occasion why Bandai still keeps on releasing a lot of figures or other merchandise from that show, unless they are also using the budget from the popularity of that show to fund other projects as well. But according to this logic, given the popularity of the first SEED, Destiny should be the direct beneficiary of its success and so should have cooler animation or whatever, but people knew what happened to it.
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Old 2007-11-13, 19:08   Link #620
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have anyone got ideas to get another GS series or spinoff projects

besides i even sent a few emails to this place http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/ce/ for another GS projects
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