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Old 2007-11-19, 03:10   Link #61
emptyeighty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Access View Post
But once divx311alpha became avaliable, and the tools like nandub to encode divx311alpha well, the venerable standard barely even put up a fight. It vanished in a matter of months, eclipsed by a non-standard, hacked alpha release of a format that even microsoft was trying to disown.
It's MPEG4 Simple Profile.
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Old 2007-11-19, 04:25   Link #62
2H-Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daiz View Post
Also, discuss.
Because if I want to watch anime on my old laptop I need to watch the Xvid releases. The H.264 is lags the shit and even crashes on my old laptop. While it's perfectly fine for my desktop and my new laptop(H.264 ftw imo), but not everyone has a system capable of running H.264 releases.

My old laptop is a pentium 4 with 2,8 GHz and 512 MB(running on XP).

If fansubbers can release both why not?
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Old 2007-11-19, 06:03   Link #63
False Dawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
Because if I want to watch anime on my old laptop I need to watch the Xvid releases. The H.264 is lags the shit and even crashes on my old laptop. While it's perfectly fine for my desktop and my new laptop(H.264 ftw imo), but not everyone has a system capable of running H.264 releases.

My old laptop is a pentium 4 with 2,8 GHz and 512 MB(running on XP).

Those are better specs than my desktop and I have no problem with h264 releases. And if you've got two things that'll run it, why on earth are you using the third one that won't?



Quote:
If fansubbers can release both why not?

Because believe it or not, even encoders have lives. Encoding something twice takes unnecessary extra time.
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Old 2007-11-19, 10:37   Link #64
jpwong
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
My old laptop is a pentium 4 with 2,8 GHz and 512 MB(running on XP).
I suppose it could be that it's a laptop, or that you only have 512MB of ram on it, but my P4@2.5GHz w/1GB RAM (and the P4@1.8GHz w/1GB RAM) both playback H.264 SD files fine. Playsback most H.264 HD files fine too depending which HD res they've been put at.

We'll undoubtedly see the move to mostly H.264 eventually, though the adoption rate is much slower that the jump from Divx to XviD codecs we saw years ago.

I think the biggest issue a lot of people seem to have is that they see ".mkv" or ".mp4" and automatically assume that the files won't work on their computers for one reason or another even if they'd run perfectly fine.
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Old 2007-11-19, 10:55   Link #65
Daiz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
Because if I want to watch anime on my old laptop I need to watch the Xvid releases. The H.264 is lags the shit and even crashes on my old laptop. While it's perfectly fine for my desktop and my new laptop(H.264 ftw imo), but not everyone has a system capable of running H.264 releases.

My old laptop is a pentium 4 with 2,8 GHz and 512 MB(running on XP).

If fansubbers can release both why not?
I'd say you are doing something wrong, just few days ago I managed to run SD H.264 releases on a 1,5 Ghz Pentium 4 with 256 MB RAM... No hope in playing HD content though, but if we moved to release the MQ releases in H.264 too, they would be playable on quite a wide range of hardware.

Check out this guide I wrote on the playback help forum.
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Old 2007-11-19, 13:07   Link #66
2H-Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by False Dawn View Post
Because believe it or not, even encoders have lives. Encoding something twice takes unnecessary extra time.
And every encoder sits behind his pc just and watches how it encodes? I don't know how encoders encode, but as the crazy person as I am. I would have a set of preferences and just load it. So the encoding the xvid releases takes a whopping 10seconds out of a persons live. I don't know what kind of exciting lives they lead, but yeah I really think it's a small effort.

I know my PC should be able to handle it after a reformat. It's just I don't want to. Since I have a desktop and a new laptop.

Even with the reformat there are releases that even my laptop just can't handle. I highly doubt you can play all the releases on it.

Yeah a MQ release, might to the trick, but even now xvid is still more user friendly. Even then CCCP might not work because of previous codecs and some people just aren't handy enough to be able to remove the old ones. I do find people should switch over to H.264, but forcing it seems a bit too much.
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Old 2007-11-19, 13:42   Link #67
martino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
And every encoder sits behind his pc just and watches how it encodes? I don't know how encoders encode, but as the crazy person as I am. I would have a set of preferences and just load it. So the encoding the xvid releases takes a whopping 10seconds out of a persons live. I don't know what kind of exciting lives they lead, but yeah I really think it's a small effort.
You make it sound too easy. Common misconception; Encoding = click one button and it's done (yessss, everything is automatic nowadays ~_~) ... n_n

And it's not just the encoders losing time on a double release, you have to think of the QC and Distro team as well.
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Old 2007-11-19, 13:52   Link #68
2H-Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martino View Post
You make it sound too easy. Common misconception; Encoding = click one button and it's done (yessss, everything is automatic nowadays ~_~) ... n_n

And it's not just the encoders losing time on a double release, you have to think of the QC and Distro team as well.
If you are done with doing what you need to do with the H.264 release. Then making 2nd encode for the Xvid one ain't that much more trouble. QC team? Ok the translation you check with the the first encode. Checking the picture quality takes a few seconds. If you want to check the whole thing it takes 24 more minutes. Or hell get another QCer. If it's just checking faults with the encode any leecher can do it. Feel free to enlighten me on what would take so much time to make the 2nd release happen.

As for the distro team. Double releases will be needed if you want to a target a wide audience. Even if you only use the H.264 format(think a MQ and a HQ release). If you go for the Xvid and the H.264 you target an even wider audience. It's true there will be more bandwidth lost, but hey if you want more people to watch your releases you give in.

I say it would be wiser to w8 for H.264 to be more mainstream.
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Old 2007-11-19, 14:00   Link #69
Farix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
Because if I want to watch anime on my old laptop I need to watch the Xvid releases. The H.264 is lags the shit and even crashes on my old laptop. While it's perfectly fine for my desktop and my new laptop(H.264 ftw imo), but not everyone has a system capable of running H.264 releases.

My old laptop is a pentium 4 with 2,8 GHz and 512 MB(running on XP).

If fansubbers can release both why not?
I too, am going to call BS on this one. I have a P4 2.8 GHz computer as well. The only difference is that I upgrade my 512 MB of memory to 2.5 GB a little over a year back. I have experienced no problems with AVC videos, including the HD stuff. It could very well be that your laptop is loaded down with crap and needs to be cleaned up. But if you are unwilling to optimize your laptop to run more efficiently, then it's your own fault and not the encoders that AVC video lags during playback.
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Old 2007-11-19, 14:06   Link #70
2H-Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farix View Post
I too, am going to call BS on this one. I have a P4 2.8 GHz computer as well. The only difference is that I upgrade my 512 MB of memory to 2.5 GB a little over a year back. I have experienced no problems with AVC videos, including the HD stuff. It could very well be that your laptop is loaded down with crap and needs to be cleaned up. But if you are unwilling to optimize your laptop to run more efficiently, then it's your own fault and not the encoders that AVC video lags during playback.
Ty for contributing to this thread, but to bad it's pointless. If you had enough energy to read the reply's that I made. You would see I had already addressed, but thank you for upping my most count.

You not having any problems with the HD stuff...Well what did you expect with you having 2,5GB ram?

I don't want to make fun of someone~, but sigh~
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Old 2007-11-19, 14:33   Link #71
Skyward
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Ram is almost useless when considering playback speeds. A dual core system can easilly play back 1080p even if it has less than 512 megabytes of ram. The main things that affect playback are CPU horsepower and the presence of GPU offloading (letting your video card decompress the video). With H.264, GPU offloading is scarce, primitive, and doesn't come into play often. That being said, you don't need alot of CPU power to decode H.264. My AMD athalon 2800+ (1.8 ghz) has no problems decoding 720p and, on occasion, can play back 1080p without lag.
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Old 2007-11-19, 14:40   Link #72
martino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
If you are done with doing what you need to do with the H.264 release. Then making 2nd encode for the Xvid one ain't that much more trouble. QC team? Ok the translation you check with the the first encode. Checking the picture quality takes a few seconds. If you want to check the whole thing it takes 24 more minutes. Or hell get another QCer. If it's just checking faults with the encode any leecher can do it. Feel free to enlighten me on what would take so much time to make the 2nd release happen.
1. You need to modify the script so that it has the stuff that's needed for the XviD version that the h264 did not need (ie dialogue script, maybe some vfr related stuff, blurring/smoothing, etc)
2. You have to load that into an encoding application, click through some menus to set the first pass and second pass
3. Wait for the encode
4. Encode the audio (if not encoded already)
5. Mux them
6. Do a fast check
7. Upload
8. Have someone check it whole before releasing (step could be removed)
9. Create torrent, put it on bots, alert distro people, etc
10. You're done and spent some time on this (I'd give a timescale, but that depends on too many factors, however altogether it does add up to quit a bit)

(If I could I'd stop doing XviD encodes straight away, last time I/we tried I/we was/were trolled to death... Maybe even more of a reason to do so now that I think of it. :V )

Also translation checking is not usually done on an RC encode, it'd be pretty silly to do it this way. And having leechers check for faults... I mean... *loses words*

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
As for the distro team. Double releases will be needed if you want to a target a wide audience. Even if you only use the H.264 format(think a MQ and a HQ release). If you go for the Xvid and the H.264 you target an even wider audience. It's true there will be more bandwidth lost, but hey if you want more people to watch your releases you give in.
Also my conception is that most fansubbers are actually fansubbers and not famesubbers, so caring about download numbers is like *ugh*. Anyway, just my thoughts on the "download" subject.
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Last edited by martino; 2007-11-19 at 14:53.
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Old 2007-11-19, 15:00   Link #73
2H-Dragon
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Martino you pretty much said it yourself it doesn't take that long. Btw encoding the audio should already be done. Uploading isn't much work. I don't consider the work the computer does as something that consumes the time of the encoder. And hell that ain't that much more work. Unless you view the computer as the person then I'll just say no comment.

Famesubbers? Call me crazy. Why are you fansubbing? To get people more people to watch anime? I find it pretty weird if you want to limit the amount of people you are targeting. If you are only going for hardcore fans then you might be right. Pretty interesting stance if you ask me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyward View Post
Ram is almost useless when considering playback speeds. A dual core system can easilly play back 1080p even if it has less than 512 megabytes of ram. The main things that affect playback are CPU horsepower and the presence of GPU offloading (letting your video card decompress the video). With H.264, GPU offloading is scarce, primitive, and doesn't come into play often. That being said, you don't need alot of CPU power to decode H.264. My AMD athalon 2800+ (1.8 ghz) has no problems decoding 720p and, on occasion, can play back 1080p without lag.
Ok this is a fault on my part. Then again it still doesn't take way you tackle a wider group by encoding with xvid. Still people do have pc's filled with junk and a lot of people are on old systems.
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Old 2007-11-19, 15:20   Link #74
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
Famesubbers? Call me crazy. Why are you fansubbing? To get people more people to watch anime? I find it pretty weird if you want to limit the amount of people you are targeting. If you are only going for hardcore fans then you might be right. Pretty interesting stance if you ask me.
I don't know if you're a fansubber or not, but that's a typical leecher's perspective. They somehow think everything in fansubbing has to do with bringing them the fansubbed episodes since they're at the end of the distribution chain. Releasing fansubs is more like an inevitable side effect of all the fun and hardships fansubbers had and slaved through during the fansubbing process. Newbie fansubbers usually like to say "we're fansubbing for the fans <we don't want to keep them waiting>", but every veteran fansubber will tell you a different reason, and there are many of those.
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Old 2007-11-19, 15:28   Link #75
2H-Dragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
I don't know if you're a fansubber or not, but that's a typical leecher's perspective. They somehow think everything in fansubbing has to do with bringing them the fansubbed episodes since they're at the end of the distribution chain. Releasing fansubs is more like an inevitable side effect of all the fun and hardships fansubbers had and slaved through during the fansubbing process. Newbie fansubbers usually like to say "we're fansubbing for the fans <we don't want to keep them waiting>", but every veteran fansubber will tell you a different reason, and there are many of those.
I am not a fansubber, but then all the xvid releases that are made at the moment are just for fun? Why mass distribute in the first place? Or did they just sub it and thought oh and let's buy bandwidth to distribute it just for the epic lulz? If fansubbers would only release in the one format they like and distribute by bittorrent and fservers. Then I would agree, but that isn't the case. So yes I got this crazy idea that fansubbers want to target a large audience and seeing the releases that is the case.

My point is that it's too early to switch to H.264 releases only.
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Old 2007-11-19, 15:43   Link #76
Daiz
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2H-Dragon, it's not too early to switch to H.264 only. H.264 has been here for 4 YEARS ALREADY, and it's been widely adapted as "the standard" by the commercial world and big companies are drumming "H.264! H.264!" all over the place, so it should be a lot more recognized nowadays too, which in turn means that becoming familiar with it won't be that hard.

And when you can play SD H.264 on pretty old hardware with actually very little work (installing CCCP isn't hard, even if you have to uninstall other stuff before it, since you actually get a program and clear instructions to help you), and in case you have CCCP previously installed, you don't even need to do anything, really.

In the end, moving to H.264 today wouldn't be nearly as painful as you probably imagine, and for new users, adapting to H.264 is very easy (install CCCP, ?????, PROFIT!). Everyone would only gain benefits from the change (increase in quality and other things, such as proper softsubs, chapters, etc that MKV provides), since we could dump the old and outdated AVI in the process, too.
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Old 2007-11-19, 15:47   Link #77
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
I am not a fansubber, but then all the xvid releases that are made at the moment are just for fun? Why mass distribute in the first place? Or did they just sub it and thought oh and let's buy bandwidth to distribute it just for the epic lulz?
They distribute in multiple formats because they can, and because having resources to do so isn't a question anymore. You only need a seeder to release in two formats.
Quote:
My point is that it's too early to switch to H.264 releases only.
A few groups and releases have already been mentioned in this thread that do H.264 releases only. And as I remember one of the internal talks we had with F-B before switching to H.264 only, we were pretty firm on saving bandwidth and sacrificing those download numbers. We're not a first tier group, but people who appreciate the quality we like to bring out download our releases.
If every fansubber targetted "large audiences", we'd only have speedsubbers, since that's where the masses lie, but not quality, I'm afraid. Everyone can release a simple script with minimum editing, QC and typesetting, and that only takes 5 hours tops for a single episode.

Since I am not seeing that to be the case, and because I am a fansubber, and I know how my buddies think, and you're just a troll, I will assume otherwise, if that's OK with you.
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Old 2007-11-19, 15:52   Link #78
Sylf
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I'm involved in a multi-year project which we switched the format from xvid to h.264 in the series. There was no real change in the fan base I've seen. It's not a major title. And we're not releasing in 720p. But I don't see any problem in switching completely to h.264.

You don't have to switch all of sudden to h.264 @ 720p. If you want, start switching the low res version to h.264 too. Why are we so stuck with the idea that low res must be in xvid and high res must be in h.264? Do what Arienai is doing already.
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Old 2007-11-19, 15:57   Link #79
2H-Dragon
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Daiz then how do you explain that the xvid releases get downloaded more? I am not against switching to H.264. I just dislike the mind set to force things.

Toua - that's pretty much it. If they can let them. Yeah there are fansubbers that target "large audiences". Just because you aren't from the groups that don't target large audiences that doesn't mean other groups don't. Calling me a troll is kinda harsh. Since I at least take the time to post some arguments.
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Old 2007-11-19, 16:12   Link #80
D404
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In the end, groups will release whatever the hell they want. It's not up to the leechers, it's up to the group. Complaining and bitching will most likely get you nowhere fast.
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