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Old 2007-11-20, 23:24   Link #1
Kang Seung Jae
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Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Military and Government Discussion Thread

Given that the universe of Mobile Suit Gundam 00 seems to be more politically charged than any other series (except possibly UC), I think a seperate thread would be appropriate.


Welcome to Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Military and Government discussion thread.

This thread is a place where you can discuss Military and Government related questions and issues in Anno Domini such as the authority within Celestial Being and the three superpowers, their military system, chain of command, etc ...



On a final note - This is a discussion thread, meaning that people are bound to disagree with you. Please be polite to your fellow members, and treat each other with mutual respect. Keep the discussion on topic, and above all - enjoy!
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Old 2007-11-20, 23:26   Link #2
Kang Seung Jae
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PS: I hope this isn't a warnable offense or anything >_>



I'll be making a map soon, to be edited to this post.


Current World Powers

(Based on 4Trans' thoughts)



Human Reform League
Formed mostly of the union of China, India, and Asiatic Russia, it also controls most of the rest of Asia and Pacifica.
- They have completed their own orbital elevator, and are seemingly on par with the Union economically, militarily, and technologically.
- Government is seemingly controlled by the Chinese.
- Both name and flag give off blatantly communistic vibes. (The Swiss Cheese anvil is sort of silly, and a hammer and sickle design would have been cooler.)
- Is likely to control half of the world's population.




Union of Solar Energy and Free Nations
Composed of all nations of North and South Americas, Australia, New Zealand, and Japan (with the possible exception of Tokyo).
- They have completed their own orbital elevator, and are seemingly on par with the HRL economically, militarily, and technologically.
- Government is supposedly a federation with the main decision-making body composed of a representative of each nation, but it appears as though the decisions made by the American President are more important.
- The constituent countries have to authority to maintain an independent military (or militia).
- For some reason, it's newest line mobile suit is named after the symbol of an AEU country.




Advanced European Union
Composed of all nations of Europe (except for Moralia, as far as we know), Turkey, and European Russia.
- Easily the most redundant name of all the power blocs.
- They have yet to complete their orbital elevator, so it can be assumed that they trail the other power blocs economically and technologically.
- Only power bloc to be seen to work under the imposition of a weapons limitation treaty, so they are likely the weakest militarily as well.
- Bloc-wide decisions are made up of a five-member body, presumably the representatives of five different countries. It's very likely that Britain and France are represented here, with the rest of members being German, Italian, and Russian (basically the European members of the G8). Even though this body seems to find it important to present a unified front to the rest of the world, the members tend to act out of the interest of their own country even if this isn't necessarily in the interest of the bloc as a whole.
- Curiously, their flag is a modified NATO flag. (A modified EU flag would probably have been a better choice.)
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Old 2007-11-21, 00:05   Link #3
Tak
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Actually, the way the government is setup does not surprise me at all in Gundam 00.

In fact, its happening today. We've already got the EU, and although a real European Army has yet to emerge, there IS a somewhat centralized European Defense Community, which mainly acts through its Common Foreign and Security Policy. In addition, splinter groups, such as the EUFOR, Eurocorps and others are a result of the European Defense Community. Although keep in mind that not all European countries are participants of this program.

As for the Reform League, its also hardly surprising. Sino-Russian relationships are in their warmest stages yet. With Chinese economy on the rise, Russia became almost the sole exporter of Chinese military equipment, and it is also due to Chinese economy that Russian arms manufacturers are able to keep operating their business. In the case of the Reform League however, it is not difficult to recognize how the Chinese are dominating most of its internal politics. Again, hardly surprising. The Chinese are in a better position, than Russia, to insert overall political influence over the territories of the Reform League.

Among other things, I don't know about 00's depiction of North & South America though, as well as other preposterous political formations.

Let me just give a few examples:

India, Korea, Taiwan as part of the League? One would think the Indians would have a word or two to say in that. Moreover, I am sure Taiwan and Korea are part of the league because they both love the Chinese oh-so-much! Hell, the only way Taiwan and Korea will ever be part of the league is if the Chinese invaded both countries during an earlier time in 00's history.

Then there is Japan. I personally cannot comprehend the idea of Japan ever become part of the US-dominated 'union'. I can see them as allies, but probably nothing else. Its no longer news that US bases are closing one after another in Japan, for many obvious reasons. Aside from national sentiments though, there is also an economy side of things. American bases in Japan are simply too damn expensive to maintain, and no, the US isn't paying a dime to keep 'em running. In fact, the entire framework of US military bases (and associated operations in the region) in Japan is currently being paid for and maintained by the Japanese government since the end of WWII! Not that US marines serve a purpose any longer, really. With less than 50,000 men stationed there since the 90s, and probably less now, coinciding with Japanese rearmament (goodbye article 9, you never should have existed), the Japanese government and Japanese citizens simply see little reason to keep a large presence of foreign troops on their soil.

I was surprised they did not factor this possible union, which is none other than a defense organization between Japan, Taiwan, Australia and Korea (assuming they can get off the anti-Japanese roller-coaster ride).

- Tak
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Old 2007-11-21, 00:15   Link #4
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Then there is Japan. I personally cannot comprehend the idea of Japan ever be part of the US-dominated 'Federation'.
I believe it's entirely possible, given the rise of HRA. Japan would certainly not want to be part of a China-centered alliance.

Also, we have to consider the energy situation. Given China's overall RL goal of becoming a hegemon, it will probably attempt to force Japan to subjegate to it if Japan did have the Union's power lines. Remember, here the owner of the Orbital Elevator is ruler, and if Japan does not have the Union to give it power, it'll have to rely on HRA.

And finally, something that's a bit strange: it's "Special Economic Jurisdiction - Japan," meaning that Japan here seems to be economic oriented, as in our world. This means that it needs to have either a paid armies or have another organization provide security. It would seem possible that the US is willing to provide the force to get some of Japan's economic power (which would be needed when you have HRA and AEU forming blocs, and a not-so-good Organization of American States as part of your Union)
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Old 2007-11-21, 00:46   Link #5
SoldierOfDarkness
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Desperate times calls for extreme measures. I doubt any of them actually went to war with each other. Especially when you can't spare any energy for such events.

When fossil fuels became exhausted, all of the major players combined together to build the space elevators, which are obviously expensive and lengthy to build, so it's not doubt that Korea, India, and Taiwan link up with China and Russia simply because it's beneficial in the long run. And we see it. They are line in line with the Union and are already pushing towards colony development.

None of the Asian powers would even think of having Japan join them so the only other option would be the US if Japan wants to survive.

The other option was NOT to participate in any of the big 3's projects which means no share of the bread(solar energy) and we see the results in areas that didn't particpated in the construction.

Unlike the AEU which has a council, both the Union and the Reform Leagues have a "president" that is seems to work similar to the US.
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Old 2007-11-21, 00:48   Link #6
Kang Seung Jae
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There's one question I have about HRA/AEU: WTH happened to Russia? If you look at the map, it split at the Urals.
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Old 2007-11-21, 01:18   Link #7
Tak
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
it's not doubt that Korea, India, and Taiwan link up with China and Russia simply because it's beneficial in the long run.
Like Japan, they are more closely associated with the United States than China or Russia. So I really do not see how this arrangement could be plausible. Unless military intervention by China was involved in overtaking the said territories, because if they had a choice, they'd rather side with the US-dominated 'union'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
None of the Asian powers would even think of having Japan join them so the only other option would be the US if Japan wants to survive.
Except we are not looking at a plural, we are looking at a singular. There is only one Asian power (in addition to Japan), and that is China.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Japan does not have the Union to give it power, it'll have to rely on HRA.
Here is the thing, as you have already stated, Japan is given a rather 'unique' status. This implies that they are possibly 'militarily' neutral. Although I am not entirely sure this fictional Japan in 00 would accept foreign armies to station on its soil. Since its a very, very sensitive topic in Japan right now.

But as I have stated, I do not know why a fourth organization failed to appear, which again, includes countries like Australia, Korea, Taiwan and Japan itself. It may even extend to the Philippines if necessary.

And they can always build a fourth elevator. I don't know whats limiting them, really. This series have yet made a plausible explanation.

Anyway, I was under the impression that this discussion should somehow relate to real-world politics. If not, then I will point out right now that some of these political arrangements are simply impossible in the real-world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
There's one question I have about HRA/AEU: WTH happened to Russia? If you look at the map, it split at the Urals.
Russia encompasses a territory extending from Europe to Asia. Regardless, most Russians are very conscious about its Euro/Asia split. It wouldn't be surprising if Russia (if it still exists in 00) is divided into Eastern and Western Russia.

Interestingly enough, an article was recently published in regards to the potential military threat of China, with Russia as its enemy. In the article, the author (who is Russian) states that traditional Russian advantages, an extensive territory and large population is being, and I quote, "stomped upon" by their Chinese neighbors, a country with a larger population and a mentality even more willing to risk lives.

So maybe before 00's time, China invaded Russia, split the nation to two and formed the League. This would explain why most politicians in the League are, Chinese!

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2007-11-21 at 01:38.
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Old 2007-11-21, 01:26   Link #8
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
But as I have stated, I do not know why a fourth organization failed to appear, which again, includes countries like Australia, Korea, Taiwan and Japan itself. It may even extend to the Philippines if necessary.

And they can always build a fourth elevator. I don't know whats limiting them, really. This series have yet made a plausible explanation.
I believe the shear cost of building/maintaining an orbital elevator is enough to prevent more countries from attempting it.

Also, if you look at the maps showing where the elevators are, they're all located at the equator, with the space between them at 120 degrees longitude. This could be an indication that there's a limit to how many elevators Earth can support without distrupting each other. (It's similar to the current argument among Korea, Japan, China, Russia, and the US for the satillite space above Northern China/Korea/Japan)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
So maybe before 00's time, China invaded Russia, split the nation to two and formed the League. This would explain why most politicians in the League are, Chinese!
True, and it explains the reason why quite a few military people are Russian.
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Old 2007-11-21, 01:29   Link #9
Tak
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
[B][COLOR="RoyalBlue"]I believe the shear cost of building/maintaining an orbital elevator is enough to prevent more countries from attempting it.
Yeah, except in that union, you have three very, very rich Asian countries supporting that elevator. Who knows? Until they give me a plausible explanation, I am not going to believe it cannot be done.

Hey, but one thing is for sure, Switzerland is still neutral! Those bastards! Then again, with a first-class armed forces more than a quarter million strong, they probably deserve the status.

- Tak
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Old 2007-11-21, 01:43   Link #10
SoldierOfDarkness
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Like Japan, they are more closely associated with the United States than China or Russia. So I really do not see how this arrangement could be plausible. Unless military intervention by China was involved in overtaking the said territories, because if they had a choice, they'd rather side with the US-dominated 'union'.
Well it's more plausible for India to join China to share the energy in the south seas that are nearby instead of having to get it from south america. I don't even want to think how Australia and Japan get their energy from South America.

In the end though, it's to represent the major powers which China, the US, and the EU. Code Geass I believed follows a similar format with the EEU, Britannia and Chinese Federation.

I don't see why your so eager to state that China used military arms. If say China had to invade a prosperous terrority that has potential to help build their elevator, military arms would be horrible because not only do you risk damaging the infrastructure, but then you gotta spend resources in bringing back to its original potential and their resources at that point are already stretched. I doubt the US had to invade South America just to get that elevator up and running.

It's a do or die situation. Either you join up to build the elevators and have your stake in solar energy, or you don't and suffer the consequences. You don't need military intervention, from what the Union President was saying, the economic situation was pretty bad for them and it's just now that they've finally recovered.
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Old 2007-11-21, 01:45   Link #11
Tak
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
I don't even want to think how Australia and Japan get their energy from South America.
Hey, thats why I kept on proposing a fourth, because its simply more plausible that way.

Then again, 00 is, thankfully, fiction! Because that world's political arrangement sure is messed up in ours.

- Tak
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Old 2007-11-21, 01:49   Link #12
4Tran
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It might be better if this thread were separated into Military and Government threads.

Having said that, here's my take on the power blocs:

Human Reform League
Formed mostly of the union of China, India, and Asiatic Russia, it also controls most of the rest of Asia and Pacifica.
- They have completed their own orbital elevator, and are seemingly on par with the Union economically, militarily, and technologically.
- Government is seemingly controlled by the Chinese.
- Both name and flag give off blatantly communistic vibes. (The Swiss Cheese anvil is sort of silly, and a hammer and sickle design would have been cooler.)
- Is likely to control half of the world's population.

Union of Solar Energy and Free Nations
Composed of all nations of North and South Americas, Australia, New Zealand, and Japan (with the possible exception of Tokyo).
- They have completed their own orbital elevator, and are seemingly on par with the HRL economically, militarily, and technologically.
- Government is supposedly a federation with the main decision-making body composed of a representative of each nation, but it appears as though the decisions made by the American President are more important.
- The constituent countries have to authority to maintain an independent military (or militia).
- For some reason, it's newest line mobile suit is named after the symbol of an AEU country.

Advanced European Union
Composed of all nations of Europe (except for Moralia, as far as we know), Turkey, and European Russia.
- Easily the most redundant name of all the power blocs.
- They have yet to complete their orbital elevator, so it can be assumed that they trail the other power blocs economically and technologically.
- Only power bloc to be seen to work under the imposition of a weapons limitation treaty, so they are likely the weakest militarily as well.
- Bloc-wide decisions are made up of a five-member body, presumably the representatives of five different countries. It's very likely that Britain and France are represented here, with the rest of members being German, Italian, and Russian (basically the European members of the G8). Even though this body seems to find it important to present a unified front to the rest of the world, the members tend to act out of the interest of their own country even if this isn't necessarily in the interest of the bloc as a whole.
- Curiously, their flag is a modified NATO flag. (A modified EU flag would probably have been a better choice.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae
And finally, something that's a bit strange: it's "Special Economic Jurisdiction - Japan," meaning that Japan here seems to be economic oriented, as in our world.
Only Tokyo seems to be a "Special Economic Zone", the rest of Japan appears to be Union territory. You also shouldn't read too much into the name, until we get more information, it really only refers to it being an administrative zone different from the rest of the islands - perhaps similar to modern Hong Kong, or inter-War Danzig, or 19th century-1949 Shanghai.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae
There's one question I have about HRA/AEU: WTH happened to Russia? If you look at the map, it split at the Urals.
I hope that they decide to explain this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Except we are not looking at a plural, we are looking at a singular. There is only one Asian power (in addition to Japan), and that is China.
And India and Russia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
And they can always build a fourth elevator. I don't know whats limiting them, really. This series have yet made a plausible explanation.
It takes so much time and resources to build an orbital elevator that the AEU can be a full decade behind the other blocs. I believe that it was something to the order of 50 years of planning and construction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Hey, but one thing is for sure, Switzerland is still neutral! Those bastards! Then again, with a first-class armed forces more than a quarter million strong, they probably deserve the status.
Is Switzerland neutral, or are they part of the AEU?
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Old 2007-11-21, 01:49   Link #13
Kang Seung Jae
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Hey, thats why I kept on proposing a fourth, because its simply more plausible that way.
I explained in a post above about the problems a fourth elevator could cause.

The problem could be both cash AND space.
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Old 2007-11-21, 01:50   Link #14
Kang Seung Jae
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4Tran, allow me to add your view into my first post.
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Old 2007-11-21, 01:55   Link #15
SoldierOfDarkness
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Is Switzerland neutral, or are they part of the AEU?
I checked the map again, there's nothing to indicate that they aren't a part of the AEU.

I'm not sure what's the issue here though. Why would the Swiss insist neutrality in this case? What energy are they gonna use? Methane from cows?

Quote:
Hey, thats why I kept on proposing a fourth, because its simply more plausible that way.

Then again, 00 is, thankfully, fiction! Because that world's political arrangement sure is messed up in ours.
The logical choice for that would be to have Australia and Japan be part of the Reform League. No point in sticking another elevator next to the Reform League's anyways. Neither do any of them have the potential or manpower to even build a friggin space elevator. Those thing's aren't easy to build and maintain.
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Old 2007-11-21, 01:57   Link #16
Tak
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
And India and Russia.
Certainly not in 00's world, which is what this discussion is about. If you just look at it, the whole thing is ran by Chinese people, and I have yet see a single Indian appearing on the show. Maybe later, but you have to wonder what role they would play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
It takes so much time and resources to build an orbital elevator that the AEU can be a full decade behind the other blocs. I believe that it was something to the order of 50 years of planning and construction.
Handled by financially and politically stable governments, which the countries of the fourth organization I proposed all qualify. As I said, they have yet properly explained 'why not'. Therefore, it IS possible, but certainly not possible now since the arrangements were already made.

Besides, if the AEU can play power-trailer, so could they.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Is Switzerland neutral, or are they part of the AEU?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
I'm not sure what's the issue here though. Why would the Swiss insist neutrality in this case? What energy are they gonna use? Methane from cows?
There is a difference between economic & political neutrality. As far as I know, Switzerland had never been 'economically' neutral. Yeah, piss them off and they'd freeze the assets to every nation on Earth. Want to keep those accounts? Feed me some solar energy.

Economically, they had always been part of something larger.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2007-11-21 at 02:11.
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Old 2007-11-21, 02:01   Link #17
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Switzerland IS part of the EU even in the real world. They are just not involved with any peace-keeping missions or what have you. Economically, they had always been part of something larger.

- Tak
Incorrect: it's not a member, yet:

Quote:
Switzerland took part in negotiating the European Economic Area agreement with the European Union. It signed the agreement on May 2, 1992, and submitted an application for accession to the EU on May 20, 1992. However, a Swiss referendum held on December 6, 1992 rejected EEA membership. As a consequence, the Swiss government decided to suspend negotiations for EU accession until further notice. Its application remains open.
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Old 2007-11-21, 02:06   Link #18
Tak
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Incorrect: it's not a member, yet:
Ooh, stand by corrected.

Although it does not change the fact that Switzerland is not economically neutral, and had done much to act in accordance to the EU's economic necessities, as well as the rest of the world.

- Tak
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Old 2007-11-21, 03:33   Link #19
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Certainly not in 00's world, which is what this discussion is about. If you just look at it, the whole thing is ran by Chinese people, and I have yet see a single Indian appearing on the show. Maybe later, but you have to wonder what role they would play.
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Old 2007-11-21, 03:50   Link #20
Marsala
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Certainly not in 00's world, which is what this discussion is about. If you just look at it, the whole thing is ran by Chinese people, and I have yet see a single Indian appearing on the show. Maybe later, but you have to wonder what role they would play.
Also, Saji and Louise's guide on the station.
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