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Old 2007-10-15, 07:10   Link #721
•••Shadow•••
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Well in terms of the wings. Do think it was just connecting to the dark rage she felt and it burst forth literally in the forms of those wings. Not sure if Rozen programs in the powers into the dolls, whether each Rozen Mystica comes with its unique power, or if it simply depends on the character and mindset of the doll in question. Personally just sit on the anger and creating a physical manifestation of her emotion.
Yes that is probably the best conclusion..
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Old 2007-10-15, 18:36   Link #722
Ancient Death
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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
Well in terms of the wings. Do think it was just connecting to the dark rage she felt and it burst forth literally in the forms of those wings. Not sure if Rozen programs in the powers into the dolls, whether each Rozen Mystica comes with its unique power, or if it simply depends on the character and mindset of the doll in question. Personally just sit on the anger and creating a physical manifestation of her emotion.

Agree Kira probably wouldn't have a problem fulfilling that kind've request.

On the slightly offtopic conversation about a 3rd season. Do feel the ending would lead to that. Giving another option to become Alice, a lot of things not being resolved, just seems like they can't leave it like that. The atmosphere certainly was one for finality for that season and maybe for a time that people would have to wait for the next one. Considering Ouverture got me into RM (watched some of the first and then decided seeing the series first might help), wouldn't mind continuation.
Yes, I agree with you on this subject.
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Old 2007-10-23, 04:41   Link #723
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I' whatched once again Ouverture and Traumend and...

Junk's junk state is junk's fault and not Father's. She left before Father had time to fix her.
Serve her right.
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Old 2007-10-23, 12:15   Link #724
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Teh hell...trying to start something?

i remember "father" carrying shinku off somewhere for some secks
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Old 2007-10-24, 11:37   Link #725
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Well there always be hardcore haters...
Flo hates "Stinku"
and Blablabla hates "Junk"....
So what...
They can hate them... If that's their opinon...
I also hate Suiseiseki and everyone likes her...
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Old 2007-10-24, 11:48   Link #726
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Originally Posted by RozenMaidenSK View Post
Well there always be hardcore haters...
Flo hates "Stinku"
and Blablabla hates "Junk"....
So what...
They can hate them... If that's their opinon...
I also hate Suiseiseki and everyone likes her...
Nope, I like them both... I chose "Shinku's side" because it's more common here to like Gin and to bash her sister.

I have already put my true opinion about the two doll's fight in this thread and what Ouverture actually tells us about it. But no way for Gin's fans to understand, so I gave up and play with them.


I'll explain later what I do mean with the "Junk is junk because of junk" later... some Big Daddies are waiting for being turned into junk.
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Old 2007-10-24, 11:59   Link #727
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Well I don't have anything against Shinku or Suigintou so I can't really tell anything.
First I hated Shinku because of S1 and Ouverture... But after Träumend I forgive her...
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Old 2007-10-26, 08:10   Link #728
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So here we go... Everything is Junk's fault by Blablabla

Rozen's bashers are forgetting important things about the character :

- He is an artist. And as an artist he has to deal with an idea as soon as it cames to her mind. That's why he did not finish Gin, because Kanaria came in his mind. So he worked on Kanaira, then Boku+Desu came, then Shinku....

- He is an artisan. And as an artisan there is no way for him to let uncompleted something he started. So he may have planed to come back to Gin and finish her. And that's why the other dolls were told that they were seven... because Gin never lelft his mind... he has always been the firs Rozen Maiden that he planned to finish some day.
But that Gin left when he finished Shinku... she disappeared and no more way for him to put that torso and that Rosa Mystica.

Why that fucking bastard left our poor kawaii gentle innocent beautiful Gin-chama without torso when he gave her that Roza Mystica ?

"The other way to become Alice", I will answer you.

He created a "disturbing element", using that imperfection, that "complex" that Gin would have toward her sisters and wanted to see if they would be capable to overcome that.
Because I do think, after having watched Traumend, that Rozen actually never thought about Alice Game... I mean by "taking your sister heart to improve yourself". If not... he would not have kept Kirakishou slept all this time since the dolls have to be 7 to "play".

He wanted them to understand that and... reward the ones who succeed by bringing them to life and not the 2 others. Let's take a look at each doll :

The obvious ones :
The Seki Sisters :
Desu is the first doll who understood that killing sisters for yourself is selfish and wrong. She has always though like that and acted to make the others stop 'till the end.
Her sister in the opposite has always been in Alice Game... even if was not for herself, even if the had shown a great devotion toward humans. She failed.
Desu brought back, Boku not.

Kanaria :
She not quite like "desu". I don't really think that Kanaria did realize how wrong is Alice Game. She is just a doll who likes to enjoy her life and having fun and did not think about fighting... Actually I don't really think that she has considered Alice Game... In Traumend she just wanted the bring the dolls to Mii-chan.
But in the last eps, she did understand how the other felt and fought along side Shinku and Desu.
-> rewarded

Shinku :
Shinku has always shown mixed feelings about Alice Game.
Sure, she wanted to reach that ideal perfecting, sure, she knew she had to fight for it but... when she has always seemed to be hesitant about giving the final blow and take the sister's heart.
back to Ouverture, she had already met -desu and Hina Ichigo... she was stronger than them, she knew it but not killed them. In S1, she begged for Gin to understand that she could not beat her and to stop. In S2... well... she was really pissed off.


next onces, later, have to go. ^^
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Old 2007-10-26, 13:33   Link #729
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Originally Posted by Blablabla View Post
So here we go... Everything is Junk's fault by Blablabla

Rozen's bashers are forgetting important things about the character :

- He is an artist. And as an artist he has to deal with an idea as soon as it cames to her mind. That's why he did not finish Gin, because Kanaria came in his mind. So he worked on Kanaira, then Boku+Desu came, then Shinku....

- He is an artisan. And as an artisan there is no way for him to let uncompleted something he started. So he may have planed to come back to Gin and finish her. And that's why the other dolls were told that they were seven... because Gin never lelft his mind... he has always been the firs Rozen Maiden that he planned to finish some day.
But that Gin left when he finished Shinku... she disappeared and no more way for him to put that torso and that Rosa Mystica.

Why that fucking bastard left our poor kawaii gentle innocent beautiful Gin-chama without torso when he gave her that Roza Mystica ?

"The other way to become Alice", I will answer you.

He created a "disturbing element", using that imperfection, that "complex" that Gin would have toward her sisters and wanted to see if they would be capable to overcome that.
Because I do think, after having watched Traumend, that Rozen actually never thought about Alice Game... I mean by "taking your sister heart to improve yourself". If not... he would not have kept Kirakishou slept all this time since the dolls have to be 7 to "play".

He wanted them to understand that and... reward the ones who succeed by bringing them to life and not the 2 others. Let's take a look at each doll :

The obvious ones :
The Seki Sisters :
Desu is the first doll who understood that killing sisters for yourself is selfish and wrong. She has always though like that and acted to make the others stop 'till the end.
Her sister in the opposite has always been in Alice Game... even if was not for herself, even if the had shown a great devotion toward humans. She failed.
Desu brought back, Boku not.

Kanaria :
She not quite like "desu". I don't really think that Kanaria did realize how wrong is Alice Game. She is just a doll who likes to enjoy her life and having fun and did not think about fighting... Actually I don't really think that she has considered Alice Game... In Traumend she just wanted the bring the dolls to Mii-chan.
But in the last eps, she did understand how the other felt and fought along side Shinku and Desu.
-> rewarded

Shinku :
Shinku has always shown mixed feelings about Alice Game.
Sure, she wanted to reach that ideal perfecting, sure, she knew she had to fight for it but... when she has always seemed to be hesitant about giving the final blow and take the sister's heart.
back to Ouverture, she had already met -desu and Hina Ichigo... she was stronger than them, she knew it but not killed them. In S1, she begged for Gin to understand that she could not beat her and to stop. In S2... well... she was really pissed off.


next onces, later, have to go. ^^
Very interesting, To be honest with you...I think this one may be the case because it does make sense to me. But then the true meaning of Alice Game remains a mystery because it's still not clearing. Any ideas?
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Old 2007-10-29, 15:49   Link #730
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Well if that "true meaning" is a soul accomplishment rather than a body's one like I think... that "make sense".

I mean, Rozen Maiden's quest is like everybody's who don't like themselves and are running after a "better me". "I'm too fat", "too small", "little boobs" or what else.

Here you have a creator that not only tryed to create a "no perfect" complex in his creations' heart (I said "tryed" because it seems that only Gin and Shinku are chasing after that perfection... Boku only wants to fulfill what she thinks are Rozen's wishes and the other ones.... don't care ) but it told them a "simple" way to overcome it and to reach that perfection.
Then he sees who wants the body perfection more than the soul one... because being physical Alice actually means "kill your sisters".

So here I go on :

The "litigious" ones :

- Hina Ichigo :
Like Kanaria she never truly cared about Alice Game... only wanted to have fun. But her selfish attitude put her medium's life in danger... and that may be why Father punished her.
And here we go for an other "curious" point about Alice Game. So dolls are to fight each others... they have to become stronger than the other ones and their power, they take it from humans. So becoming Alice does not only mean "killing your sisters", but "killing humans too if weak ones".
And when you look at the dolls who stay at the end, they were the ones who understood that... well, Gin's case is more complex, so here we go.

- Gin :
I think that even if she was a bad very girl (hunting her sisters putting humans life in danger), Rozen did forgive because he saw Gin improving for the best at Megu's side in spite of the hatred she built in her heart because of him.

So.... you have a Guy who wanted his dolls to overcome a test : The Alice Game. And he rewarded the girls who di pass it by bringing them back when Barasuishou blew away.

Therefore we can consider that Shinku, Suiseiseki, Kanaria and Suigintou are all Alice because they managed to live by themselves, for themselves or the ones they love and not te be better than anyone.

That's all.
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Old 2007-11-07, 19:20   Link #731
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I think that is quite a possible theory.
I don't get why would Rozen want to put his dolls into a trial and told them only about the "simple way" and told them that Alice is the girl of his dreams?

That and if his intention was to create a "no-perfection" mindset, then wouldn't Shinku and Gin be the only one that should be accounted as "punishable"? Seeing as they are the only ones that actually consider their goal as to seeking perfection.

Quite frankly, that is exactly why Souseiseki was driven to participate in the Alice Game despite she doesn't want to. Her reasons are almost as good as Gin's reasons. She just had Rozen's wellbeing on the top of her priorities like Gin had Megu's wellbeing.

I personally think Rozen was watching the dolls fighting each other. I am guessing somewhere when he was watching it, he realized that this wasn't the right way and that Alice isn't about total perfection physically, but what makes a true Alice (as Blablabla said) is the spiritual values of the dolls.

Going by the anime storyline, this probably is the point when he walks in and repairs all the dolls spare Souseiseki and Hina Ichigo. Now, what really, really puzzles me is that why exactly didn't he repair Souseiseki and Hina Ichigo then? Was it that Laplace's Demon had their Rosa Mystica or that their bodies were somewhere else? I am leaning more to the Laplace's Demon having that as it is said that it is Shinku's burden to wake them up again.

Of course, we would never really quite know the answer unless Peach Pit somehow continues with the manga or the animators decided to push through a season 3 without Peach Pit (which I think they should since they had driven the story so far away from the manga already).
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Old 2007-11-11, 11:34   Link #732
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I just watched Ouverture, and I honestly cannot understand where all the Shinku-hate comes from... going into it knowing that it had made people love Gin-sama and hate Shinku I was expecting Shinku to be totally evil throughout the OVA or something. But up until the very end when Gin totally deserved it, I never saw Shinku acting maliciously. Of course there was that one bad moment that basically turned Gin evil, where I was like "ouch, you really screwed up there, Shinku". But even there she was just being honest about the way she regarded Alice and the Alice Game; when she ends up losing her arm in Season 1, she immediately thinks that she has become junk; it's not like she was saying it just to bring Gin down (obviously, it was a really stupid and insensitive thing to say, that's one of those situations where you just keep your thoughts to yourself).

What I really cannot believe is how people are putting Shinku's actions prior to that incident in a bad light... for chrissakes, she was trying to *help* Gin! It was pretty clear she wasn't just trying to build Gin up so that she could kill her later without feeling guilty. Even if she was "pitying" Gin, she was still was doing it with good intentions. Unlike Boku, who clearly just had contempt towards Gin, she couldn't believe the first doll could be so weak, and just decided to put her out of her misery.

I think lots of people are looking at Gin they knew from Season 1 and 2, and feeling that Shinku should have treated Gin in Ouverture like Gin in the two main seasons i.e. as an equal. But the fact is, after coming through the mirror, Gin was clearly in need of help, both physically and emotionally. Shinku keeps calling her a "child", which is pretty much true at that time. No one complains about how Shinku takes in another "child", Hina Ichigo, who's helpless after losing her ring. "But omg, it's *Gin-sama*! Shinku can't treat her like Hina Ichigo!" is what I bet Gin-fans are thinking; even if helpless Gin is so moe, they can't stand the fact that it's *Shinku* who is caring for her. Meanwhile, people seem to be ignoring Shinku's own development in Seasons 1 and 2, when she apologized to Gin for calling her junk, and realized she was wrong about saying Gin couldn't become Alice due to being incomplete (the one real unprovoked bad thing Shinku had done, and I already discussed how I don't think she said it out of malice). But of course Gin won't even accept an apology (and she's never apologized for smashing Shinku's brooch). But it's all Shinku's fault apparently

Of course the "Rozen is evil" argument is a seriously abused dead horse, but I still have to throw in the obligatory, "It's not Shinku's fault that Rozen gave her that brooch and didn't finish Gin. Gin could be hating Father for not finishing her, but instead she takes it all out on Shinku."
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Old 2007-11-11, 13:26   Link #733
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While I don't necessarily get where all the Shinku hate came from... I definitely don't hate Gin either.

Gin might have never apologized to Shinku about destroying her brooch, but I think the way Gin entrust her Roza Mystica to Shinku and how she adviced Megu to not call herself a junk showed, in her own distinctive way, that she trust Shinku to do the right thing and that Gin herself is sorry for what had happened.

The only character in Ouverture that got some "hate" points was actually Souseiseki.
She was quite a stubborn bastard.

On a side note for Souseiseki... she talks about wishing to complete Rozen's dream. Her wish to complete that and to not dissatisfy Rozen is the main reason she participate in the Alice Game. However, does anyone find that funny? I doubt even if Souseiseki could defeat everyone, she would be able to become Alice... mainly because I heavily doubt she would lay her hands on Suiseiseki. As can be seen in Traumend's episode 8 and 9, it is obvious she has a very huge soft spot for Suiseiseki due to the fact they are twin sisters... despite of Suiseiseki's threats, Souseiseki just pushed her away and refused to do what Suiseiseki ask of her... even if it'd be plain easy to take her first step to complete Rozen's dream by disabling Suiseiseki first.

On another note, does anyone find Souseiseki's power difference to be extremely different? Comparing her abilities in Ouverture and Traumend... Suigintou had such an easy job finishing Souseiseki... and Sou was also a lot more reckless in this battle. However, in Ouverture, she was able to stand on equal footing when fighting against Shinku and her tactics are a lot more practical. It really couldn't be her medium, since on both eras, her mediums are rather weak and not exactly in the best physical condition.

As some have pointed out earlier about Souseiseki... I wonder if it is really she going on a suicide run, so one of the dolls would become Alice to satisfy Rozen's dream... even if Alice won't be her.
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Old 2007-12-02, 09:40   Link #734
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Originally Posted by Blablabla View Post
So here we go... Everything is Junk's fault by Blablabla

Rozen's bashers are forgetting important things about the character :

- He is an artist. And as an artist he has to deal with an idea as soon as it cames to her mind. That's why he did not finish Gin, because Kanaria came in his mind. So he worked on Kanaira, then Boku+Desu came, then Shinku....

- He is an artisan. And as an artisan there is no way for him to let uncompleted something he started. So he may have planed to come back to Gin and finish her. And that's why the other dolls were told that they were seven... because Gin never lelft his mind... he has always been the firs Rozen Maiden that he planned to finish some day.
But that Gin left when he finished Shinku... she disappeared and no more way for him to put that torso and that Rosa Mystica.

Why that fucking bastard left our poor kawaii gentle innocent beautiful Gin-chama without torso when he gave her that Roza Mystica ?

"The other way to become Alice", I will answer you.

He created a "disturbing element", using that imperfection, that "complex" that Gin would have toward her sisters and wanted to see if they would be capable to overcome that.
Because I do think, after having watched Traumend, that Rozen actually never thought about Alice Game... I mean by "taking your sister heart to improve yourself". If not... he would not have kept Kirakishou slept all this time since the dolls have to be 7 to "play".

He wanted them to understand that and... reward the ones who succeed by bringing them to life and not the 2 others. Let's take a look at each doll :

The obvious ones :
The Seki Sisters :
Desu is the first doll who understood that killing sisters for yourself is selfish and wrong. She has always though like that and acted to make the others stop 'till the end.
Her sister in the opposite has always been in Alice Game... even if was not for herself, even if the had shown a great devotion toward humans. She failed.
Desu brought back, Boku not.

Kanaria :
She not quite like "desu". I don't really think that Kanaria did realize how wrong is Alice Game. She is just a doll who likes to enjoy her life and having fun and did not think about fighting... Actually I don't really think that she has considered Alice Game... In Traumend she just wanted the bring the dolls to Mii-chan.
But in the last eps, she did understand how the other felt and fought along side Shinku and Desu.
-> rewarded

Shinku :
Shinku has always shown mixed feelings about Alice Game.
Sure, she wanted to reach that ideal perfecting, sure, she knew she had to fight for it but... when she has always seemed to be hesitant about giving the final blow and take the sister's heart.
back to Ouverture, she had already met -desu and Hina Ichigo... she was stronger than them, she knew it but not killed them. In S1, she begged for Gin to understand that she could not beat her and to stop. In S2... well... she was really pissed off.


next onces, later, have to go. ^^
To be honest, I like your "why-Father-left-Gin-unfinished" theory.

Quote:
Now, what really, really puzzles me is that why exactly didn't he repair Souseiseki and Hina Ichigo then?
Because they were the only ones defeated by LEGAL Rozen Maidens, but the others were not. I still pretty like Blablabla's theory though.

Quote:
On another note, does anyone find Souseiseki's power difference to be extremely different? Comparing her abilities in Ouverture and Traumend... Suigintou had such an easy job finishing Souseiseki... and Sou was also a lot more reckless in this battle. However, in Ouverture, she was able to stand on equal footing when fighting against Shinku and her tactics are a lot more practical. It really couldn't be her medium, since on both eras, her mediums are rather weak and not exactly in the best physical condition.
There is this theory I read somewhere, that Boku is known very devoted to her masters. In Ouverture, she made her master nearly die, so she's traumatic or something that she never fights with her whole power again, fearing that her master might be hurt, like Gin's feelings in the end of Traumend.

But then again, it is only a theory.

And Boku in the manga is a MUCH. MORE. TERRIBLE. BASTARD. than in the anime. Bless you anime watchers. (but manga-Boku still gets many lovers, people like half-villain-ish jerks these days ).

Quote:
So why do you guys think that Suigintou accrued (I used dictionary again) wings right after she became.. Well you know,,,
answered. However, In the manga, the story of Suigintou's imperfection focused on her wings (it is said that she is "defective" because of the cracks of the wings on her back).
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Old 2007-12-02, 10:42   Link #735
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Because they were the only ones defeated by LEGAL Rozen Maidens, but the others were not. I still pretty like Blablabla's theory though.
You have to remember. Father told Shinku there is way WITHOUT killing all the other dolls to become Alice. So, if there is a way, why let the Alice Game continue if he really love all his doll?

That was my original question. Read my first post to learn my theory and why I asked that question. I already know the entire because they were legally defeated, which is still very misplaced however you put it.

Quote:
There is this theory I read somewhere, that Boku is known very devoted to her masters. In Ouverture, she made her master nearly die, so she's traumatic or something that she never fights with her whole power again, fearing that her master might be hurt, like Gin's feelings in the end of Traumend.
Never really went completely into that detail in the OVA, it just shows that Sui and Sou's master was terribly weak from Sou's power.

But why would she not fight with her whole power in such a crucial stage? Doesn't quite made sense.
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Old 2007-12-02, 14:26   Link #736
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Originally Posted by Lynx190 View Post
I just watched Ouverture, and I honestly cannot understand where all the Shinku-hate comes from... going into it knowing that it had made people love Gin-sama and hate Shinku I was expecting Shinku to be totally evil throughout the OVA or something. But up until the very end when Gin totally deserved it, I never saw Shinku acting maliciously. Of course there was that one bad moment that basically turned Gin evil, where I was like "ouch, you really screwed up there, Shinku". But even there she was just being honest about the way she regarded Alice and the Alice Game; when she ends up losing her arm in Season 1, she immediately thinks that she has become junk; it's not like she was saying it just to bring Gin down (obviously, it was a really stupid and insensitive thing to say, that's one of those situations where you just keep your thoughts to yourself).
gin sama didnt deserve being "pitied" on, even though what you said about shinku regarding the alice dolls as being perfect is indeed true (and makes sense).

because this is in the past, we have yet to see how shinku develops to be more considerate, which is a flaw in her character (rude, and snobby like most oujo sama types).
Quote:
What I really cannot believe is how people are putting Shinku's actions prior to that incident in a bad light... for chrissakes, she was trying to *help* Gin! It was pretty clear she wasn't just trying to build Gin up so that she could kill her later without feeling guilty. Even if she was "pitying" Gin, she was still was doing it with good intentions. Unlike Boku, who clearly just had contempt towards Gin, she couldn't believe the first doll could be so weak, and just decided to put her out of her misery.
she was being caring i agree, but she also lied. perhaps that was a lie needed to get gin sama onto her feet but she then did the horrible thing of "disappearing". what do you suspect would happened to gin sama when she wakes up the next day and shinku (her only friend and person who gave her hope) had left without a trace?

shinku may think that she is doing the caring thing by leaving gin sama with that kid...but imo she made another huge mistake. she knows how obssessed gin sama is towards rozen because really...rozen is the sole reason she exists, i duno how shinku could think that everything would be all right if she just abandon her.

the right way would be to take with gin sama about the situation - may not be effective but it would have helped ease the pain to follow...
Quote:
I think lots of people are looking at Gin they knew from Season 1 and 2, and feeling that Shinku should have treated Gin in Ouverture like Gin in the two main seasons i.e. as an equal. But the fact is, after coming through the mirror, Gin was clearly in need of help, both physically and emotionally. Shinku keeps calling her a "child", which is pretty much true at that time.
nope im not relation S1 and 2 into any of this. but you are right about shinku caring for the weak - something even gin sama is greatful for assuming her to be her best friend (or sister). ahh i just love that scene where gin sama hugger shinku but even then we can see that shinku is thinking about what to do with this lie.
Quote:
No one complains about how Shinku takes in another "child", Hina Ichigo, who's helpless after losing her ring. "But omg, it's *Gin-sama*! Shinku can't treat her like Hina Ichigo!" is what I bet Gin-fans are thinking; even if helpless Gin is so moe, they can't stand the fact that it's *Shinku* who is caring for her. Meanwhile, people seem to be ignoring Shinku's own development in Seasons 1 and 2, when she apologized to Gin for calling her junk, and realized she was wrong about saying Gin couldn't become Alice due to being incomplete (the one real unprovoked bad thing Shinku had done, and I already discussed how I don't think she said it out of malice). But of course Gin won't even accept an apology (and she's never apologized for smashing Shinku's brooch). But it's all Shinku's fault apparently
it isnt the fact that people think that shinku is treating gin sama like a baby that we "dislike" her, but the fact that she totally forgot to listen in on gin sama's feelings - well with rozen and all.

also shouldnt we be ignoring shinku's development in S1 and S2 watching this? things that happen in the future is a direct consequence of what happened in the past. in this case shinku caused gin sama to turn "evil".

yep shinku apologised to gin sama for calling her junk in S2 and rightly so we didnt hear a response, but you have to look to see that being "friendly" isnt part of gin sama's character. she prefers action to words which is why we see gin sama repaying those feelings by saving shinku from bara
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Of course the "Rozen is evil" argument is a seriously abused dead horse, but I still have to throw in the obligatory, "It's not Shinku's fault that Rozen gave her that brooch and didn't finish Gin. Gin could be hating Father for not finishing her, but instead she takes it all out on Shinku."
then again...its not gin sama's fault that she was betrayed...she should also blame herself for stepping out of the wrong mirror
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Old 2007-12-02, 16:43   Link #737
MaxwellDemon
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Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
gin sama didnt deserve being "pitied" on, even though what you said about shinku regarding the alice dolls as being perfect is indeed true (and makes sense).

because this is in the past, we have yet to see how shinku develops to be more considerate, which is a flaw in her character (rude, and snobby like most oujo sama types).
So, what are you trying to say here? You want Shinku to be nice and considerate to all dolls and Jun through out the series?

Unfortunately, Shinku being "rude and snobby", even if her main personality traits are no longer that as shown in serious episodes, is part of the humor of Rozen Maiden. It is almost like a running gag. So, unfortunately, despite of how much character development Shinku gets, that "snobby and rude" trait she has for her "servants" will never go away as the creator probably don't want to kill off one of the things used for humor yet.

I mean, we all jokingly tease our friends in a casual situation. Does that mean part of our personality is arrogant? XD

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she was being caring i agree, but she also lied. perhaps that was a lie needed to get gin sama onto her feet but she then did the horrible thing of "disappearing". what do you suspect would happened to gin sama when she wakes up the next day and shinku (her only friend and person who gave her hope) had left without a trace?

shinku may think that she is doing the caring thing by leaving gin sama with that kid...but imo she made another huge mistake. she knows how obssessed gin sama is towards rozen because really...rozen is the sole reason she exists, i duno how shinku could think that everything would be all right if she just abandon her.

the right way would be to take with gin sama about the situation - may not be effective but it would have helped ease the pain to follow...
We all agreed here that Shinku messed up huge time, she could have easily avoided the entire hatred and rivalry by doing the right thing. That is so easy for us to say that with foresight though (even though RM would be seriously boring if that rivalry wasn't there ). Let's look at a few reason why Shinku did what she did:
  1. Shinku saw that Suigintou was incomplete. As Lynx had pointed out, she didn't thought Rozen would allow something incomplete to compete for the position of being Alice as Alice, in Shinku's mind, was explained as the girl that reaches the utmost perfection. This eventually lead to her believing that Suigintou was motivated just by her will to meet Rozen and thus did not have a Rosa Mystica (she wasn't wrong in that either, Rozen didn't give Suigintou her Roza Mystica until later in Ouverture).
  2. As you yourself said, Suigintou is obsessed with Rozen and meeting him. Even if Shinku had told her the real situation and how Suigintou probably doesn't have a Roza Mystica, thus does not qualify for the Alice Game, would Suigintou really listen? The result would either be: 1) Absolutely killing Suigintou's will thus extinguishing her ability to live without the Roza Mystica until she found Rozen later in Ouverture (Shinku had believe Suigintou won't have long before she is "deactivated" due to the lack of a Roza Mystica). 2) A mindless frenzy from Suigintou, which wouldn't go too far with her current status.
  3. Or if Shinku had just simply told Gin about the Alice Game and allow her to partake, that would be cruelty in Shinku's book due to what she believed Suigintou to be, the other dolls to DEMOLISH Gin before going all "WTF?!"... which wouldn't really ease the pain either. If that was the scenario, we'd have Gin fans complaining about how Shinku should had stopped Suigintou from taking part and that she is an evil doll (so, nothing really changes).

Again, it is very easy for us to criticize Shinku because we KNOW what is going to happen. However, if all of us are THAT amazing in judging situation and how they present themselves. I bet a lot of misunderstanding that is created upon our own affairs wouldn't even exist in the first place.

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yep shinku apologised to gin sama for calling her junk in S2 and rightly so we didnt hear a response, but you have to look to see that being "friendly" isnt part of gin sama's character. she prefers action to words which is why we see gin sama repaying those feelings by saving shinku from bara

then again...its not gin sama's fault that she was betrayed...she should also blame herself for stepping out of the wrong mirror
This part I absolutely agree with.

Just to make myself clear, I don't favor Shinku or Suigintou, they are both very equal (and very high) on my book. Just so I don't sound like very anti-Suigintou because I am defending Shinku's action in Rozen Maiden.
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Old 2007-12-02, 17:14   Link #738
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Mainly I just have an issue with the claims I've seen elsewhere of people saying Ouverture "converted" them from liking Shinku to liking Gin instead. I mean, it's rather obvious how Ouverture reinforces the feelings of people who have always loved Gin and hated Shinku, but I just don't see how people could suddenly stop liking Shinku because of Ouverture. If one already liked Shinku with her personality in the first two seasons, I don't really see any difference in Ouverture that would change things. I felt like I must have been watching a different version or something based on what I had heard about how horrible Shinku was.

Like I said in the favorite character thread, I don't have anything against Gin; like most everybody, I liked her more after Traumend and Ouverture even if she isn't my favorite... I just feel the need to defend Shinku against what seems like a misguided surge of hate after Ouverture
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Old 2007-12-02, 18:36   Link #739
Deathkillz
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well it just goes to show that there are various views to a situation.

classic example of a gray area really...

those who favor gin sama will try and pick holes in shinku and vice versa, those who favor shinku will protect her.

normally i would be one of the neutral ones, defending both parties either way depending on the weight of each side. i too hate seeing a one sided battle.

but in this case gin sama is mai wifu so naturally whatever i say is in her best interest

the "converted" bit is a bit extreme though i agree...changing your favorite shouldnt really be that simply so i think it is more sympathy than favorism (but those feelings are mistaken). ^^
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Originally Posted by MaxwellDemon View Post
So, what are you trying to say here? You want Shinku to be nice and considerate to all dolls and Jun through out the series?

Unfortunately, Shinku being "rude and snobby", even if her main personality traits are no longer that as shown in serious episodes, is part of the humor of Rozen Maiden. It is almost like a running gag. So, unfortunately, despite of how much character development Shinku gets, that "snobby and rude" trait she has for her "servants" will never go away as the creator probably don't want to kill off one of the things used for humor yet.
oh it will never go away...but in that sense she has become less annoying if what she doesnt isnt really what she means, unlike before her development
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I mean, we all jokingly tease our friends in a casual situation. Does that mean part of our personality is arrogant? XD
yes it does :3
you cant "act" a personality without it becoming part of you.

(and soon you will know the horrible truth...)
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Old 2007-12-02, 21:29   Link #740
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Originally Posted by MaxwellDemon View Post
You have to remember. Father told Shinku there is way WITHOUT killing all the other dolls to become Alice. So, if there is a way, why let the Alice Game continue if he really love all his doll?

That was my original question. Read my first post to learn my theory and why I asked that question. I already know the entire because they were legally defeated, which is still very misplaced however you put it.
The point is why Rozen told the dolls about the existence of other ways to become Alice so late , or maybe he just felt so hopeless because the Game was starting to sacrifice more and more victims and nobody could understand him at all

Rozen never tells the dolls to "start over", he even told Shinku in the MIDDLE of the Game era about other ways to be Alice (maybe "and so Shinku, please continue with this condition but I just can't stand seeing my little daughters die any more thank you", or whatever)

Or there is a possibility that he changed his mind in the middle of the Game after two of his dolls had fallen, but there isn't any obligation for him to revive the dolls that had fallen legally according to the previous rules right?

and although there is definitely a way to be Alice without defeating other sisters, some rules of the Alice Game don't vanish: dolls will "die" when their Roza Mysticas are taken, etc. and Kira might probably use this fact to get her sisters to "play" in the next season.

And sorry if my explanation is weird or rude, I'm still half-asleep typing this...

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Never really went completely into that detail in the OVA, it just shows that Sui and Sou's master was terribly weak from Sou's power.

But why would she not fight with her whole power in such a crucial stage? Doesn't quite made sense.
It's just a theory after all, but...Like you don't know Boku at all...she would do anything to "protect her master's life" beyond any common sense, she would commit a suicide for her master as easy as Suiseiseki saying "desu" (wait, in fact she HAS already done it...in the manga)

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classic example of a gray area really...
lawl I'm tired of Gin vs Shinku fanfight, and yet there is still yuri fandom behind
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