Classifying "Visual Novels"

[rg4619]

And because of the above, I just cannot agree with your definition of "describing a story with text" as Visual Novel. Comics tell stories with text too, so are they novels too? Yeah, it's a shitty analogy

I think we're well aware of the Japanese intention (which isn't universally maintained by all companies). Some are just saying that it's unnecessary for non-Japanese audiences to inherit and understand these quirks. In other words, we're stressing practically over "authenticity".

To avoid confusion, Hirameki International has also described its ADV releases as "visual novels". Being based in Japan, they're most certainly aware of the original usage, but have chosen to go with the western sense of the term (similarly, westerners game localizers/publishers ignore the terms "simulation game" or "simulation RPG").

what you're trying to do is to completely ignore the original Japanese intention of the term and explain it along English terms.

.....which is done all the time in any localization context.

Aside from elitism, we have no reason to push these distinctions onto audiences for which they hold no existing meaning.

If one understands the differences, that's good. They can use that knowledge to play trivia games with others.

And yes, Leaf was the first to create the "whole page with text" games.

Chun Soft came before them with Otogirisou.

I mean, it's not hard to guess from the names given right? Gun Action RPG? Probably an RPG about guns

You'd think so, but in this case, "gun action RPG" was used to describe a mission-based first/third person shooter. Player stats that improve over time were added to fulfill the criteria of a RPG.

Because first person shooters are unpopular in Japan, marketers picked something that sounds more inviting. Over there, consumers are conservative, so as far as description is concerned, publishers emphasize familiarity over good sense.

ADV is the same thing - they've reduced the concept of adventure game to superficial features (as compared to character stat development in a RPG or a few strategic elements in a SLG) just to keep using it.

Interactive Novel? Yeah, Visual Novel with more options.

Nope, as posted above, minori uses interactive novel to describe standard ADV games - 2/3 picture, 1/3 dialogue. In fact, their designs usually feature fewer options than in many other games.

[musashiken]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Opinion understood. But don't you find it elitist as hell to go around correcting people, especially newcomers, for misclassifying an AVG as a Visual Novel, or vice-versa? To me, it does make you sound like nothing but an unabashed smartass... and to what end? And then we have the larger English fan community, which has largely embrassed "Visual Novel" as a catch-all/super-genre (visual-novels, visualnews, etc.). You going to go around telling them wisen up too? I could accept something like "Japanese Adventure Game" or "Japanese Bishoujo Game" (but not the dreadfully ironic short form, "b-game" ), but that doesn't seem to be the way the wind is blowing. Much like how "otaku" and "hentai" took on different meanings in English culture, Visual Novel may be on its way to doing the same thing (though, the fact that it was pointed out that even the average Japanese consumer doesn't distinguish between their Visual Novels and AVGs is interesting).

Yup, I actually think that I'm being a prick here. But forums have a few of these no? I'm doing it to add some color to the forum and I have no intention of moving the whole world with me. The rest of the English speaking community can have their own interpretation of the Japanese culture. I can't help it if I want to make a few rants now and then. And it's not like I'm deliberately insulting anyone or anything. Have fun and argue all you want. It's a good way to relieve pent-up stress during work (at least for me).

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

That being said, I don't think it makes any sense to put "18+" or "all-ages" at the top of the classification pyramid. It's a descriptor, much like "PC or console" or "PS3, XBOX360, or Wii". The age descriptor describes the audience, not the genre. When an 18+ game gets ported to a console and the ero-scenes removed, the gameplay doesn't change, the target audience does. This is why I wonder if it makes any sense to have a "what ero-games are you playing at the moment?" thread -- is the fact that they have ero scenes really the defining factor for those of us discussing it in that thread?

In any event, here's to hoping for some more diverse opinions on the matter.

Well, I didn't start the thread in the first place but I thought that it was a thread for perverts who played 18+ games that depict nudity in various sexual scenes and I was like "hey, here's a thread to crap about perverted 2d games, imma go boast about my 10 over years experience in playing them".

Originally Posted by rg4619

I think we're well aware of the Japanese intention (which isn't universally maintained by all companies). Some are just saying that it's unnecessary for non-Japanese audiences to inherit and understand these quirks. In other words, we're stressing practically over "authenticity".

Alright, point taken, I guess I'm not one of you. I'm all for authenticity.

Originally Posted by rg4619

To avoid confusion, Hirameki International has also described its ADV releases as "visual novels". Being based in Japan, they're most certainly aware of the original usage, but have chosen to go with the western sense of the term (similarly, westerners game localizers/publishers ignore the terms "simulation game" or "simulation RPG").

That's an American-based site right? Isn't the office in California USA? Let me know if you're sure they're manned by full-fledge Japanese living in Japan. Even if they are, they're probably doing it just to make things easier for the Americans or they're letting some American guy do all the marketing talk for them. But hey, what do I know? When I go to research on erogames, I go straight to the Japanese site. In fact this is the first time I heard of Hirameki.

Originally Posted by rg4619

.....which is done all the time in any localization context.

Aside from elitism, we have no reason to push these distinctions onto audiences for which they hold no existing meaning.

If one understands the differences, that's good. They can use that knowledge to play trivia games with others.

Well, I'm not pushing my brand of "elitism" on you guys. I'm just making my views in this singular forum. So if no one spreads this out, it'll just stay within this forum and nothing changes. Not my concern really. I just want to boast and make people laugh at my silliness.

Originally Posted by rg4619

Chun Soft came before them with Otogirisou.

Otogirisou was called a Sound Novel for the Super Famicon. I admit I was wrong when claiming Leaf to be the pioneer for full page text games. But I'm pretty sure Otogirisou was not an Erogame and Leaf's Shizuku was the first to adapt the Sound Novel into the Adult context and from then onwards it was branded as Visual Novel.

Originally Posted by rg4619

You'd think so, but in this case, "gun action RPG" was used to describe a mission-based first/third person shooter. Player stats that improve over time were added to fulfill the criteria of a RPG.

Because first person shooters are unpopular in Japan, marketers picked something that sounds more inviting. Over there, consumers are conservative, so as far as description is concerned, publishers emphasize familiarity over good sense.

Well, to be honest, I have no idea which game we're talking about. I think it's probably a one-shot naming for some game.

Originally Posted by rg4619

ADV is the same thing - they've reduced the concept of adventure game to superficial features (as compared to character stat development in a RPG or a few strategic elements in a SLG) just to keep using it.

And your point being? You know something funny? I think I already lost track of what I'm trying to argue about at this point.

Originally Posted by rg4619

Nope, as posted above, minori uses interactive novel to describe standard ADV games - 2/3 picture, 1/3 dialogue. In fact, their designs usually feature fewer options than in many other games.

Ok then, I'll go delete Number 5 of my formula. That means minori games fall under the ADV/AVG category. And they're probably the only company to use the term "Interactive Novel" so I guess it's more of a marketing ploy.


Well, if you want my honest and serious opinion, then I vote for "Bishoujo Games" to be the main genre, since some still don't agree with "Erogames". And if you still insist on "Visual Novel" being used to describe such games in general, then so be it.

[Benoit]

That's an American-based site right? Isn't the office in California USA?

The office is in Japan. Akihabara, if I remember correctly. The site's weblog is written by a Japanese in English. I'd guess their American presence is merely a distribution firm.

[p997tt]

Originally Posted by musashiken

I'd still call Symphonic Rain an ADV game instead of Visual Novel.

Since Erogamescape classifies Symphonic Rain as a visual novel, I will continue to call it a VN in the English community as everyone who is into these games knows what a VN is anyway. However if I talk about this game in the Chinese community, I will use ADV since I know most people there call these games ADV.

Originally Posted by musashiken

Number 2: If they're Visual Novels, they must be full of text.

Number 3: If they're ADV/AVG, they must be 2/3 picture and 1/3 dialogue.

I think even the usual Japanese people don't really care about this difference. I just did a quick google search and found this page http://www.guruguru.net/auction/item/1769298364. They called Air a visual novel. As you know, Air has 2/3 graphic and 1/3 text.

Originally Posted by musashiken

Number 6: If it's called Insult game and has both pages full of text and pages with partial text... hell do I even care anymore?

Symphonic Rain fits in this category. When you read Arietta's letter, the text is full screen. For most (not all) other parts of the game, it's 2/3 picture and 1/3 dialogue.

[tkdtiger]

i always considered thes visual novels to just be a new form of interactive fiction like the old text-based games of the 80's and early 90's...