AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2007-12-14, 10:22   Link #1121
tripperazn
Toyosaki Aki
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Interesting story richvh, you're right, with furigana it's definitely not too hard. Admittedly, I used google translator for some of the kanji in the last paragraph, first chapter. Thanks!
__________________
tripperazn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-12-14, 11:32   Link #1122
richvh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Might I suggest Firefox + Rikaichan as a better alternative to (ew!) Google Translate?
__________________
Kenichi manga translator
ゆきの物語
richvh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-12-14, 12:08   Link #1123
tripperazn
Toyosaki Aki
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Woah...that is really handy! Thanks again!

I meant to ask last post, but is it supposed to be like one of those Japanese folk tales?
__________________
tripperazn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-12-14, 12:15   Link #1124
richvh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
It started out that way. I think it went in a different direction, though, as it grew.
__________________
Kenichi manga translator
ゆきの物語
richvh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-12-15, 18:05   Link #1125
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
The 'su' often has an abbreviated pronunciation, especially at the end of words, frequently even to the point of the vowel being unvoiced completely (or at least close enough to sound that way to inexperienced ears).

If you're listening to anything with native Japanese language, listen carefully any time it sounds like some one ends a word with an 's' sound, and it will almost certainly be a 'su' syllable. If you listen carefully enough, though, you might notice in many cases that the 'u' was there, just "clipped".

The exact pronunciation can very by dialect, but it can also vary vastly by personal choice of voicing. So long as you don't emphasize it at the end of a word, you'll be OK. Just try to imitate what you're hearing.
I've found that, sometimes, in order to add emphasis (and exaggerating a bit, in my opinion), the "su" is vividly pronounced. It's usually heard in those 「ありがとうございます!」 exclamations when in front of a crowd (I'm currently thinking about hosts of live presentations in front of an audience, mainly because I just watched one ), the ございます is soundly accented towards the end of the word, and thus the "su" is fully pronounced.

I don't know if it's too common, though, or if my analysis is in any way correct.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-12-15, 20:49   Link #1126
onehp
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
What and where do you recommend me that can something teach me comprehensive lessons on grammar higher than basic? I do know some schools can teach me but I like to see alternatives. I see particles in seemingly normal sentences that, in my knowledge, should not be there such as, (blah blah blah)ので(blah blah blah) and the 私はonehpいいます to name a few.

Last edited by onehp; 2007-12-15 at 21:04.
onehp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-12-15, 20:55   Link #1127
kimchipride
Geass User
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Age: 22
I took 3 years of High School Japanese and my hanasu is still worse than kindergarteners.


SIGH


I wish I took Spanish. It'd be much more useful.
__________________
kimchipride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-12-15, 21:10   Link #1128
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
(blah blah blah)ので(blah blah blah)
It's not an expression that can be succinctly explained in English... but, literally, it means something like "due to"... but then again, it's not exactly that, either. It depends on the context, and it is kind of formal speech.

If you can rationalize a mixture of what the particles の and で mean, you will get the idea, but you need to abstract yourself from your native language.

Quote:
and the 私はonehpいいます to name a few.
と, besides meaning "and", is a particle that indicates that the preceding statement is a quote of some sort. In this case, imagine "onehp" between quotation marks and perhaps you'll get the gist of it. Then again, "quoted" statements are very, very common in Japanese, and are not used like in most (if not all) Western languages.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-12-15, 22:52   Link #1129
Varion
殲滅天使
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Send a message via AIM to Varion Send a message via MSN to Varion
Quote:
Originally Posted by onehp View Post
What and where do you recommend me that can something teach me comprehensive lessons on grammar higher than basic? I do know some schools can teach me but I like to see alternatives. I see particles in seemingly normal sentences that, in my knowledge, should not be there such as, (blah blah blah)ので(blah blah blah) and the 私はonehpいいます to name a few.
Try GuidetoJapanese.org. They don't cover every grammar point you'll ever need or anything, but most of the major ones that require some extra explanation are there, including both the ones you listed. ので is here and という is here and here.
Varion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-12-16, 05:26   Link #1130
Dxon
Inactive user
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Holland,Zuid-holland,Capelle aan den IJssel
Age: 22
All of you can do japanese? How did you people learn it? O_o
__________________
I don't want a sig anymore.. It's going to get removed anyway.
Gimme Cookies!!
People's screens are to small for my signature.
Dxon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-12-16, 08:40   Link #1131
tripperazn
Toyosaki Aki
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
I learned the basics in intro language classes. Now I'm trying to build on it by watching raws, then subs for the parts I don't understand.

It's actually not very hard to get a basic understanding. If you want to start, you should definitely check out the site valdra suggested: guidetojapanese.org

It teaches you the correct way of learning Japanese. It's not very fun, but it works. You DO NOT want to learn it in relation to another language. The classes I took taught that way, and even now I mutter to myself in English when I translate the raws in my head. The point is, you don't want to translate in your mind, you want convert Japanese directly into thought.

I'd follow that online course. Again, memorizing what seems like random scribbles to you isn't fun, but reading kana is absolutely critical and child's play compared to kanji. Make sure to practice until you can read it fast. When you can read my title in under 2 seconds, I'd say that's good enough. When you get to the kanji section, don't panic and give up. It's really not that bad.
__________________

Last edited by tripperazn; 2007-12-16 at 09:12.
tripperazn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-12-16, 13:34   Link #1132
onehp
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
このおてら、ゆうめいな <- what is the の for? I frequently see it in some informal sentences

ううん、あまりゆうめいじゃないよ

ずいぶんしずかね

そうだね
onehp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-12-16, 14:15   Link #1133
Claymore_Obsessed
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuusai View Post
The 'su' often has an abbreviated pronunciation, especially at the end of words, frequently even to the point of the vowel being unvoiced completely (or at least close enough to sound that way to inexperienced ears).

If you're listening to anything with native Japanese language, listen carefully any time it sounds like some one ends a word with an 's' sound, and it will almost certainly be a 'su' syllable. If you listen carefully enough, though, you might notice in many cases that the 'u' was there, just "clipped".

The exact pronunciation can very by dialect, but it can also vary vastly by personal choice of voicing. So long as you don't emphasize it at the end of a word, you'll be OK. Just try to imitate what you're hearing.
By the way, intentionally emphasizing the "su" is a very manly way of speaking?

because I remember that Excel Saga episode where Excel finds a talking gun that ends every sentence with a strong "SSU", something like "Ossu! Jibun no namae wa Nanami-SSU. Yoroshiku-SSU!" and she notes that's a very manly speech...
__________________
Claymore_Obsessed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-12-16, 15:09   Link #1134
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
because I remember that Excel Saga episode where Excel finds a talking gun that ends every sentence with a strong "SSU", something like "Ossu! Jibun no namae wa Nanami-SSU. Yoroshiku-SSU!" and she notes that's a very manly speech..
Those last examples represent a shortening of "desu" in informal speech.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-12-16, 15:12   Link #1135
Dxon
Inactive user
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Holland,Zuid-holland,Capelle aan den IJssel
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
I learned the basics in intro language classes. Now I'm trying to build on it by watching raws, then subs for the parts I don't understand.

It's actually not very hard to get a basic understanding. If you want to start, you should definitely check out the site valdra suggested: guidetojapanese.org

It teaches you the correct way of learning Japanese. It's not very fun, but it works. You DO NOT want to learn it in relation to another language. The classes I took taught that way, and even now I mutter to myself in English when I translate the raws in my head. The point is, you don't want to translate in your mind, you want convert Japanese directly into thought.

I'd follow that online course. Again, memorizing what seems like random scribbles to you isn't fun, but reading kana is absolutely critical and child's play compared to kanji. Make sure to practice until you can read it fast. When you can read my title in under 2 seconds, I'd say that's good enough. When you get to the kanji section, don't panic and give up. It's really not that bad.
I hear by thank you. I add some to your reputation!

If there is anything that you use aside the guide alone please tell me. With anything I mean lists of kanji and meaning plus pronunciation.
__________________
I don't want a sig anymore.. It's going to get removed anyway.
Gimme Cookies!!
People's screens are to small for my signature.
Dxon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-12-16, 15:34   Link #1136
tripperazn
Toyosaki Aki
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dxon View Post
I hear by thank you. I add some to your reputation!

If there is anything that you use aside the guide alone please tell me. With anything I mean lists of kanji and meaning plus pronunciation.
It really depends on what you want to do with Japanese. If you want to watch raws, focus on grammar (verbs, adjectives, conjugation, are the main three). I suggest you start with being able to understand a conversation in Japanese, since listening is by far the easiest language skill.

Reading raw manga will be hard has richvh points out earlier. I'm slowly working through Hayate no Gotoku with scanlations for reference. You need all the skills of listening, plus knowledge of both "onyomi" and "kunyomi" for a lot of different characters of kanji. That kind of ability isn't going to mastered quickly by anyone. Reading Japanese takes me over 10 times longer than English.

If it's just for your personal enjoyment, obviously do whatever.
__________________
tripperazn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-12-16, 15:46   Link #1137
raikage
日本語を食べません!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Francisco
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dxon View Post
All of you can do japanese? How did you people learn it? O_o
Classes. There are cases of people who are self-taught, but such people I know aren't all that good relative to time spent learning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimchipride View Post
I took 3 years of High School Japanese and my hanasu is still worse than kindergarteners.
That's kind of expected.

When I went to college, my Japanese teacher asked who had taken the language before.

Apparently 3-4 years in HS = 1st semester. No more than that.
Or maybe that's just the case where I went to school...
raikage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-12-16, 16:07   Link #1138
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
Classes. There are cases of people who are self-taught, but such people I know aren't all that good relative to time spent learning.
It depends a lot on the person. For instance, I have a particular knack for learning languages just by exposition to it. I learned English just by hearing and reading it when I was 9-10... I had been taught only basic stuff in primary school, nothing beyond simple phrases like "The cat is under the table", and none of my relatives can speak it. It permeated so naturally through my environment (I've been playing with operating systems in English, movies, video games and the Internet for a long time) that I don't really remember a point in time where I said "Okay, I know zero English, so let's get to learn it".

The same thing happened to me with Japanese. At first, it was just basic word recognition (I remember I was very glad when I found out the meaning of 心 just by associating the translated lyrics and the romaji karaoke for the Bubblegum Crisis 2040 ED), then it evolved towards sentence structure, and then it just became something very natural to me. I started attending classes when I was 17 and, to be completely honest, these two years have been pretty boring, since I knew already all I've been taught. Most of my classmates are barely starting with kanji, and I've already got a bit more than a 3-Kyuu level. The most fun I can have in classes are those times where my teacher separates me (while the rest does some sort of exercise) and makes me practice dialog and rapid speech. I've talked to the course manager about skipping levels but he didn't agree, so next year I'm switching courses.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-12-17, 03:55   Link #1139
Yaoi_Daisuki
少年愛
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Age: 26
Hey guys, do you have this similar problems?

I just started learning Japanese a month ago, i could pretty much write all the hiragana now but i could only write in this way ka ki ko ke ko, sa shi su se so and so on pretty fast, so if someone randomly say a hiragana, i will need like 5 sec to think and write it down hmm. also is someone chuck me a sentence of hiragana it takes quite sometime for me to actually read it in mind or aloud. so did i actually memorize the hiragana or something? sometime seems to be awefully wrong -_-

also im trying to learn some vocabs, for example if someone point me a fish i cant answer that in japanese, but if someone ask me what is sakana i know that is fish -_-

holy, this is getting frustrating and at the same time entertaining. . lmao
__________________
Yaoi_Daisuki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-12-17, 10:11   Link #1140
Kyuusai
9wiki
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: State of Denial
Send a message via AIM to Kyuusai Send a message via MSN to Kyuusai Send a message via Yahoo to Kyuusai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaoi_Daisuki View Post
Hey guys, do you have this similar problems?

I just started learning Japanese a month ago, i could pretty much write all the hiragana now but i could only write in this way ka ki ko ke ko, sa shi su se so and so on pretty fast, so if someone randomly say a hiragana, i will need like 5 sec to think and write it down hmm. also is someone chuck me a sentence of hiragana it takes quite sometime for me to actually read it in mind or aloud. so did i actually memorize the hiragana or something? sometime seems to be awefully wrong -_-

also im trying to learn some vocabs, for example if someone point me a fish i cant answer that in japanese, but if someone ask me what is sakana i know that is fish -_-

holy, this is getting frustrating and at the same time entertaining. . lmao
Don't get too frustrated. Remember that it took time to learn your first language, too.

If you've learned to write the kana, practice reading them with flash cards. Better yet, there are lots of online kana flash card style games, some of which can actually be fun. When you have even the ability to recall them in any capacity, start reading everything you come across, even if it's just a couple of characters you see at random. The more context you have for what you're reading, though, the better it will stick.

Vocabulary is the same way. Sure, you can learn words by wrote memorization, but you'll remember them properly when you have some context for them. The more you learn and the more you actually experience these words, the easier it will be to not just memorize them, but absorb them. Remember, you're not trying to learn what a word means in English so much as you're just trying to learn what it means, period. It really ends up being more like just learning a new word in language you know more than learning "alternate words".

If you're some one who finds it easy to think visually (or even better, think in abstract, non-verbal, non-visual concepts--which is what I do), try to associate words not with the English translation, but with the picture or idea.

And read and listen to as much as you can, especially if it's in a form that interests you.
__________________

I await patiently
the gift promised to me.
Kyuusai is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
hiragana

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 23:33.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.