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Old 2007-12-09, 18:41   Link #181
tripperazn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtoMan View Post
I don't think that's the case, since their Kanji names

杏(Kyou) <-> 椋(Ryou)

are different enough. It is more of a plot matter ,really.
I meant when Tomoya is referring to them in speech. The twins will often appear together and they probably want to avoid forcing the audience to distinguish between Kyou and Ryou. Granted, it's not that similarif Nakamura Yuuichi clearly pronounces them, but being a seiyuu is hard enough, why make it harder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
Hm, I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on honorifics here, so I'm going to ask. What is more intimate/friendly here, Kotomi or Kotomi-chan?
Kotomi without the "-chan" is more intimate.
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Old 2007-12-09, 19:14   Link #182
Proto
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I meant when Tomoya is referring to them in speech. The twins will often appear together and they probably want to avoid forcing the audience to distinguish between Kyou and Ryou. Granted, it's not that similarif Nakamura Yuuichi clearly pronounces them, but being a seiyuu is hard enough, why make it harder?
Nah, remember that CLANNAD had its roots as a visual novel that started planning stages back in 2001. In its first release in 2004 it didn't have any voice acting at all. Heck back then not even AIR had been adapted to TV so I doubt KEY were considering the difficulties of voice acting back when they drafted the characters and their relationships.

Quote:
Hm, I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on honorifics here, so I'm going to ask. What is more intimate/friendly here, Kotomi or Kotomi-chan?
It is a difference in approaches from my POV. '-chan' has a more endearing subcontext, while yobisuteru (leaving out the honorifics) symbolises a breakdown of some social barriers. You would use '-chan' when addressing children and you are an adult, when you are a girl and you are addressing a childhold friend or a female friend in child school... it has a more cutesy feeling IMHO. On contrast, leaving out the honorifics is used more often by males (when outside of the family circles,inside the family circle you see both parents calling their offspring without honorifics), and more often when addressing a junior high/high school friend. There isn't a fixed rule though, and it is highly dependant on each particular situation...however if we were to search for a (rough and exaggerated, but it shows the differences) translation, you could see Kotomi-chan as 'dear Kotomi', while Kotomi would be 'hey you, Kotomi'. They are both intimate but on different levels.

Last edited by Proto; 2007-12-09 at 20:41.
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Old 2007-12-09, 19:20   Link #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
I meant when Tomoya is referring to them in speech. The twins will often appear together and they probably want to avoid forcing the audience to distinguish between Kyou and Ryou. Granted, it's not that similarif Nakamura Yuuichi clearly pronounces them, but being a seiyuu is hard enough, why make it harder?
I don't think so, it's more like Tomoya isn't that close to Fujibayashii yet to call her by her first name while Kyou has been his friend on 2nd year and possibly, Kyou forced him to call her by her first name By the way, calling by first name doesn't really mean they're going out, it only means they have intimate or mutual relationship. Although, in school, it could be misinterpreted, specially if someone knows you usually call the person by her last name then suddenly, one day, they'll found out that you call the person by her first name now. It will look kinda suspicious


Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
Kotomi without the "-chan" is more intimate.
I think Kotomi-chan is more intimate. It's a cute way to call girls like that because you won't really use -chan at that age. Kotomi without -chan is a formal/normal way of calling her (no respect, but doesn't mean it has no respect) :3
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Old 2007-12-09, 19:59   Link #184
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Originally Posted by dgreater1 View Post
I don't think so, it's more like Tomoya isn't that close to Fujibayashii yet to call her by her first name while Kyou has been his friend on 2nd year and possibly, Kyou forced him to call her by her first name By the way, calling by first name doesn't really mean they're going out, it only means they have intimate or mutual relationship. Although, in school, it could be misinterpreted, specially if someone knows you usually call the person by her last name then suddenly, one day, they'll found out that you call the person by her first name now. It will look kinda suspicious
Yes, you're right, but I'm saying they set it up this way on purpose. Key could just as easily have put Ryou in Kyou and Tomoya's second year class. However, they chose not to do that. I don't know the reason why. But I speculate that they only intend Tomoya to refer to main characters by first name no honorific basis (except Kotomi, whose idiosyncrasies are purposeful). If you didn't already know, Ryou is a side character.

I have never implied that first name only was for couples, only that it implies great intimacy between the individuals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgreater1 View Post
I think Kotomi-chan is more intimate. It's a cute way to call girls like that because you won't really use -chan at that age. Kotomi without -chan is a formal/normal way of calling her (no respect, but doesn't mean it has no respect) :3
I don't profess to be a native speaker of Japanese, but the "first name no honorific" is not often used for a reason. It is more intimate than the commonly used (in anime, not necessarily IRL) "-chan" as far as I know.

Watch the sprocket subs for ep 9. They agree.
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Old 2007-12-09, 20:15   Link #185
Kang Seung Jae
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Due to my laziness, I'll just post something from Wiki:

Quote:
Chan (ちゃん, Chan?) is a diminutive suffix. It is an informal version of san used to address children and female family members. It may also be used towards animals, lovers, intimate friends, and people whom one has known since childhood. Chan continues to be used as a term of endearment, especially for girls, into adulthood. Parents will probably always call their daughters chan and their sons kun, though chan can be used towards boys just as easily. Adults may use chan as a term of endearment to women with whom they are on close terms.

Chan can be considered a feminine mode of speech in that it is used mainly by, or towards, females. Its pattern of usage is similar to using "dear" when addressing someone in English. Males would not use chan when addressing other males
In the case of Kotomi, the reason for her responding to "Kotomi-chan" will be explained in the future. However, it is safe to say that for Tomoya, adding "chan" is a sigh of how close he should be to Kotomi.



As for Kyou and Ryou: the story behind how Tomoya started calling Kyou by her first name is shown in Official Another Story Clannad: 光見守る坂道で.
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Old 2007-12-09, 20:34   Link #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
I have never implied that first name only was for couples, only that it implies great intimacy between the individuals.
Oh, sorry if you misunderstand when I included that. I'm just adding some additional information about calling someone by their first name :3

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
I don't profess to be a native speaker of Japanese, but the "first name no honorific" is not often used for a reason. It is more intimate than the commonly used (in anime, not necessarily IRL) "-chan" as far as I know.

Watch the sprocket subs for ep 9. They agree.
Well, we know that the reason for honorifcs is for relationship level and respect. But anyway, we can also say Kotomi and Kotomi-chan has the same level of intimacy depending on the person, but in Kotomi's case, the added -chan is more intimate than no -chan. You wouldn't really call someone -chan if you're not intimate with that person. You might get pummeled if you call a lady -chan though, unless she's intimate with you and is fine with that. Adding -chan in a name is kinda implying that that person is a bit childish that's why you have to be more intimate to that person that she's also fine if you add -chan to her name, that kind of reasoning
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Old 2007-12-09, 21:46   Link #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgreater1 View Post
Oh, sorry if you misunderstand when I included that. I'm just adding some additional information about calling someone by their first name :3



Well, we know that the reason for honorifcs is for relationship level and respect. But anyway, we can also say Kotomi and Kotomi-chan has the same level of intimacy depending on the person, but in Kotomi's case, the added -chan is more intimate than no -chan. You wouldn't really call someone -chan if you're not intimate with that person. You might get pummeled if you call a lady -chan though, unless she's intimate with you and is fine with that. Adding -chan in a name is kinda implying that that person is a bit childish that's why you have to be more intimate to that person that she's also fine if you add -chan to her name, that kind of reasoning
To add to that, Tomoya isn't the only case. Recall what Sunohara calls Nagisa. Now recall what he calls Kyou or Tomoyo. Now see the contrast. Now there is a difference. (Of course the source and preferences are nearly opposite directions, as in Kotomi wants Tomoya to add chan to the name, whereas in Sunohara's case he purposely adds -chan in glee.)

Not the best analogy though. At least there's a clear certain pattern.
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Old 2007-12-10, 02:45   Link #188
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is it just me, or does anyone else notice the huge similarities between Kyou and Ryou Fujibayashi and Kagami and Tsukasa Hiiraga from Lucky Star?

Last edited by ElementSun; 2007-12-10 at 03:56.
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Old 2007-12-10, 02:52   Link #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElementSun View Post
is it just me, or does anyone else notice the huge similarities between Kyou and Ryou and Kagami Fujibayashi and Kagami and Tsukasa Hiiraga from Lucky Star?
Your point being?


Clannad was released 3 months after Lucky Star first started, so I would say that the similarity is nothign particular.
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Old 2007-12-10, 03:57   Link #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Your point being?


Clannad was released 3 months after Lucky Star first started, so I would say that the similarity is nothign particular.
Not to mention the game was released years before it...Twins are not an uncommon factor, especially in non-violent shows.
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Old 2007-12-10, 14:41   Link #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgreater1 View Post
Oh, sorry if you misunderstand when I included that. I'm just adding some additional information about calling someone by their first name :3



Well, we know that the reason for honorifcs is for relationship level and respect. But anyway, we can also say Kotomi and Kotomi-chan has the same level of intimacy depending on the person, but in Kotomi's case, the added -chan is more intimate than no -chan. You wouldn't really call someone -chan if you're not intimate with that person. You might get pummeled if you call a lady -chan though, unless she's intimate with you and is fine with that. Adding -chan in a name is kinda implying that that person is a bit childish that's why you have to be more intimate to that person that she's also fine if you add -chan to her name, that kind of reasoning
I asked the question because from my knowledge of honorifics (aka little) and just by judging from context, it appears that Tomoya has more difficulty calling someone -chan (both Nagisa and Kotomi), so that leads me to thinking that -chan is more intimate. However, from what I understand, the intimacy of a boy calling girl without honorifics at all is also intimate in the sense that they are just good friends. It's more confusing that people who like each other likes to call each other by their last name with the -san suffix. So overall, I guess I could just try to enjoy the anime without trying to understand everything about Japanese culture.
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Old 2007-12-10, 20:25   Link #192
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamandragon View Post
Not to mention the game was released years before it...Twins are not an uncommon factor, especially in non-violent shows.
Actually, the start was pretty close.

Lucky Star was first serialized in Janurary 2004, while the limited PC version of Clannad was released in April 28, 2004. (Regular was August 6, 2004)


Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
I asked the question because from my knowledge of honorifics (aka little) and just by judging from context, it appears that Tomoya has more difficulty calling someone -chan (both Nagisa and Kotomi), so that leads me to thinking that -chan is more intimate. However, from what I understand, the intimacy of a boy calling girl without honorifics at all is also intimate in the sense that they are just good friends. It's more confusing that people who like each other likes to call each other by their last name with the -san suffix. So overall, I guess I could just try to enjoy the anime without trying to understand everything about Japanese culture.
I do have to admit that honorifics would be hard for people whose mother languange doesn't have as an extensive system as Japan/Korea.
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Old 2007-12-10, 21:43   Link #193
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
I do have to admit that honorifics would be hard for people whose mother languange doesn't have as an extensive system as Japan/Korea.
I am actually Vietnamese where there are some usage of honorifics (but in this case, it's put at the beginning of names such as Mr., Ms., but more extensive). However, it is nowhere as extensive as Japanese honorifics, and you know away if someone are friends, a couple, or family members.
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Old 2007-12-10, 21:51   Link #194
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
I am actually Vietnamese where there are some usage of honorifics (but in this case, it's put at the beginning of names such as Mr., Ms., but more extensive). However, it is nowhere as extensive as Japanese honorifics, and you know away if someone are friends, a couple, or family members.
It's not THAT exact, but it's still systemized enough to almost immediately sense the relationships.
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Old 2007-12-15, 05:06   Link #195
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Originally Posted by ElementSun View Post
is it just me, or does anyone else notice the huge similarities between Kyou and Ryou Fujibayashi and Kagami and Tsukasa Hiiraga from Lucky Star?
Twins are not uncommon in Japanese media. Contrasting personalities in the twins is even more common.

Watch Futakoi and Futakoi: Alternative for some more twin fun... LOL
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Old 2007-12-15, 08:16   Link #196
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Originally Posted by boggart View Post
Twins are not uncommon in Japanese media. Contrasting personalities in the twins is even more common.

Watch Futakoi and Futakoi: Alternative for some more twin fun... LOL :heh:
Good call!

Though unlike the Hiiragis in Lucky Star and the Fujibayashis in Clannad, the Shiroganes are identical twins rather than fraternal twins, as are all the other girls, even the teachers, Momoi Ai and Mai. It's just that the Shiroganes who are the "polar opposite" personalities in the Futakoi franchises.

--Ian.

[Note to self: Rewatch Futakoi Alternative sometime. Incidentally, Futakoi Alternative has Seki Tomokazu, who voiced Kitagawa Jun in Kanon, as Futaba Rentarou.]
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Old 2007-12-15, 17:56   Link #197
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ok dunno if this is the place to ask?

But is their a guide to help you get 100% on Tomoyo After and does AGTH and Atlas version 13 work since i tried it and some of the words translate to gibberish is their a site to add new words to it?

Dunno if this is the place correct me if this isn't.
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Old 2007-12-15, 18:09   Link #198
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ok dunno if this is the place to ask?

But is their a guide to help you get 100% on Tomoyo After and does AGTH and Atlas version 13 work since i tried it and some of the words translate to gibberish is their a site to add new words to it?

Dunno if this is the place correct me if this isn't.
You may want to try Tomoyo's character thread.
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Old 2007-12-15, 18:39   Link #199
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ok I will then thanks for telling ^^
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Old 2007-12-19, 14:44   Link #200
Shikimori Kazuki
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is there a difference in the colors of the badge in each of their uniform? Notice that Kotomi and Kyou's badge is blue while Tomoyo's badge is red.

I'm just guessing but does this have something to do with what school year they are in......?

here is a reference to what i am talking about: http://pdkm02.mofile.com/p/1/2007/12...KIZWYR_103.jpg
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