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Old 2007-12-18, 19:12   Link #41
NoSanninWa
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Originally Posted by ironbomb View Post
@skyfall so its alrite to kill unborn childs, aka abortion? Giving him the right to suggest and actually want to see it through, killing the child inside Sekai, he is killing someone. For just that, I personally dont condone "an eye for an eye" since like Ghandi stated, "an eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind". I cant see how anyone could suggest abortion when they want to "act" mature. If you are willing to have sex, you should be mature enough to take it all the consequeneces that come with it. So after you get someone pregnant, you go and kill the child that you made....sounds so much like the wealthy kids in modern day eh? Oh, we cant deal with this...kill it.
So think someone deserves to die for suggesting abortion? This is not a thread to debate the morality of abortion. I really don't want anyone here to start derailing it that way.

I just want to know if you really think that Makoto deserved to die for suggesting abortion and if you'd wish death on anyone else who suggested abortion as a solution for teenaged pregnancy. I'm not asking if you'd kill him yourself. (You made it clear enough that you'd not do the killing) I'm asking if you think their karma should cause that result.
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Old 2007-12-18, 19:19   Link #42
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Now how did this turn into abortion (one of the biggest grey area known to mankind ).
To confirm...I don't believe that in a real life situation, makoto should be executed for his actions. But certainly he needs to be taught a pretty good lesson, if not I can just see many more people getting hurt by him. How about we make it so that he can never have sex again as a form of punishment
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Old 2007-12-18, 19:21   Link #43
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Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
Now how did this turn into abortion (one of the biggest grey area known to mankind ).
To confirm...I don't believe that in a real life situation, makoto should be executed for his actions. But certainly he needs to be taught a pretty good lesson, if not I can just see many more people getting hurt by him. How about we make it so that he can never have sex again as a form of punishment
you mean cutting of his balls
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Old 2007-12-18, 20:37   Link #44
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Originally Posted by NoSanninWa View Post
So think someone deserves to die for suggesting abortion? This is not a thread to debate the morality of abortion. I really don't want anyone here to start derailing it that way.

I just want to know if you really think that Makoto deserved to die for suggesting abortion and if you'd wish death on anyone else who suggested abortion as a solution for teenaged pregnancy. I'm not asking if you'd kill him yourself. (You made it clear enough that you'd not do the killing) I'm asking if you think their karma should cause that result.
Suggesting it would only cause me to "despise" that person. But actually forcing and making the girl carry it out, now that is something I cant stand. Of course, he didnt do that but that was because he never had the chance...Given that he knows she didnt get that abortion and Sekai DIDNT kill Matoko, I am sure that Matoko would incite/force her to do it.
I do believe in karma, if you throw a punch, you will get punch back, might not by the person that you hit, but definitely in one way or another...
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Old 2007-12-18, 21:26   Link #45
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Focusing on the abortion aspect of the story unfortunately will basically lead to a never-ending debate. The only agreement is probably the statement that Makoto is basically trying to find the way out of taking on any responsibility.

At the core, it's the fact that this is HIGH SCHOOL is what defines this situation for me. These are teenagers. There is a reason why teenagers aren't treated as adults in a court of law, even though they are capable of doing adult actions.

There is no way that Makoto is so depraved that there is no chance of redemption. There was no intent to murder, rape or torture. I still think looking at it as a sex addiction is a pretty valid way to explain his downfall and his actions.

There is a reason why intent is so critically important in law. Arguably, intent is critically important in religion as well. Let's look at a basic example. Let's say you spilled a cup of water, which subsequently froze, causing someone to trip, break his neck and die. Are you guilty of murder? Of course not.

Now Makoto's situation isn't so obvious, but it's clear his intent eventually became getting sex for the least amount of responsibilities.
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Old 2007-12-18, 21:31   Link #46
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I'm quite happy Makoto got to die and to be fair he lived life pretty well and he's basically gotten what most men will never get and got a full life if you just consider that(sob) he defiantely died with no regrets
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Old 2007-12-18, 22:26   Link #47
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Originally Posted by Fervor View Post
Focusing on the abortion aspect of the story unfortunately will basically lead to a never-ending debate. The only agreement is probably the statement that Makoto is basically trying to find the way out of taking on any responsibility.

At the core, it's the fact that this is HIGH SCHOOL is what defines this situation for me. These are teenagers. There is a reason why teenagers aren't treated as adults in a court of law, even though they are capable of doing adult actions.

There is no way that Makoto is so depraved that there is no chance of redemption. There was no intent to murder, rape or torture. I still think looking at it as a sex addiction is a pretty valid way to explain his downfall and his actions.

There is a reason why intent is so critically important in law. Arguably, intent is critically important in religion as well. Let's look at a basic example. Let's say you spilled a cup of water, which subsequently froze, causing someone to trip, break his neck and die. Are you guilty of murder? Of course not.

Now Makoto's situation isn't so obvious, but it's clear his intent eventually became getting sex for the least amount of responsibilities.
I am sorry for bringing the topic towards abortion but just felt that it would make a strong point towards...


That is something I never liked about the law. If a juvenile commits a crime, just because he is under age, I never felt that he should be treated any different than an adult, especially if he was able to pull off the act/crime that he commited. Just shows that if you commit a crime early in life, you get away with it.


Anybody would feel a sort of remorse at the end of the anime if you where in the shoes of the male lead. He didnt, not one bit, show that. Instead he steeps deeper into it which I felt, he wouldnt have changed even given time. Like you said, he has a sex addiction, lets said he didnt get murdered by Sekai, he gets idk, punished..even after the punishment, he is still a gonna sleep with other women while dating one...That is how it will be and its gonna be an endless cycle.

That example is too basic lol...a relationship is anything but basic and shouldnt be view in such a manner.
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Old 2007-12-19, 01:30   Link #48
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Yes he deserved to die and i hope he burns in hell
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Old 2007-12-19, 07:50   Link #49
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The fact that juveniles are given a chance at redemption is something I really appreciate about the justice system. I truly believe in redemption and second chances. While they are capable of adult actions, it's very clear in many cases that their mind and maturity is still very much in development.

Makoto is a teenager. While his actions were insensitive, he didn't actually commit any crimes. Prior to this brief period of selfish playboy behavior, he was portrayed as a really nice guy. Remember that many of these girls were attracted to him because of his past good behavior.

I think it quite possible that he can turn into a good responsible adult, given the chance. He might even try to make up for the people he hurt, once he understands the real impact of his behavior.

He's not evil. He's not malicious. He's just young, immature, weak, horny and insensitive.
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Old 2007-12-19, 08:53   Link #50
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Originally Posted by mist2123 View Post
you mean cutting of his balls
Yes, but if we are in favor of giving him a chance (which is something I agree) then just cut off one ball. If he continues to be a scum finish him by cutting off the other one ^^

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Originally Posted by Fervor View Post
The fact that juveniles are given a chance at redemption is something I really appreciate about the justice system. I truly believe in redemption and second chances. While they are capable of adult actions, it's very clear in many cases that their mind and maturity is still very much in development.
Sadly...there are also those people in the world that will never change

Help what you can help but if they refuse to "redempt" then what happens? You can't really help those who are unwilling to change themselves.
Quote:
Makoto is a teenager. While his actions were insensitive, he didn't actually commit any crimes. Prior to this brief period of selfish playboy behavior, he was portrayed as a really nice guy. Remember that many of these girls were attracted to him because of his past good behavior.

I think it quite possible that he can turn into a good responsible adult, given the chance. He might even try to make up for the people he hurt, once he understands the real impact of his behavior.

He's not evil. He's not malicious. He's just young, immature, weak, horny and insensitive.
What men think inside are scary but at least they are feelings/thoughts inside...but makoto is the type that acts on those instincts which makes him more scary O.O

Hey could turn out a fine man but I'm just worried about how many girl's lives he is going to ruin before that happens. Sometimes a simple "sorry" cannot solve a problem.

What say sekai commited suicide because of him? I doubt he would feel much guilt. Even saying "sorry", there is no way he could bring back someone's shattered life.
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Old 2007-12-19, 14:10   Link #51
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Originally Posted by ironbomb View Post
That is something I never liked about the law. If a juvenile commits a crime, just because he is under age, I never felt that he should be treated any different than an adult, especially if he was able to pull off the act/crime that he commited. Just shows that if you commit a crime early in life, you get away with it.
Hate to say it man but that's the law and i don't see anyone changing it anytime soon....

It's just something that you'll have to accept.

So what your saying is that the age doesn't matter, if the crime is still committed by a 7 year old he/she should still be treated as an adult in the court of law?

Have u ever been a juvenille? because if you have been then i think that you would see things differently and be a little more merciful on the second chance idea.
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Old 2007-12-19, 14:47   Link #52
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Originally Posted by Fervor View Post
The fact that juveniles are given a chance at redemption is something I really appreciate about the justice system. I truly believe in redemption and second chances. While they are capable of adult actions, it's very clear in many cases that their mind and maturity is still very much in development.

Makoto is a teenager. While his actions were insensitive, he didn't actually commit any crimes. Prior to this brief period of selfish playboy behavior, he was portrayed as a really nice guy. Remember that many of these girls were attracted to him because of his past good behavior.

I think it quite possible that he can turn into a good responsible adult, given the chance. He might even try to make up for the people he hurt, once he understands the real impact of his behavior.

He's not evil. He's not malicious. He's just young, immature, weak, horny and insensitive.
instead of taking his past to judge him, judge him the way he is. Otome is the best example, she noticed the new Matoko, she heed the hints that Matoko changed and made a decisive factor to move away from him. Its not that I dont think he can change back to his old-self, its just there was no sign given that he would. Even the slightiest bit of remorse would have been enough for me to change my views on him yet not one time did he think about what he done was incorrect or wrong.
Not just is there people that dont change, there are people that commit worst acts after receiving punishment...why do you think he is any different especially with how he acted towards the end of the anime? Just because he WAS a "good" guy?


@Dr1ft3r - Ok, when I made that statement, I didnt take into account of non-teenager incidents which I totally missed out on. I was thinking of teenagers able to do certain acts that dont get punished for because of simply, his/her age.

Sadly enough, second chance is overrated. I probably have given so many second chance opportunities to people I thought was friends than you can imagine that caused alot more pain at the end. Its not that I dont trust or believe they change, its that certain act that you do cant be repented. I am a truly forgiving person, but when a person's life is endangered because of your own selfishness, then thats truly unforgivable.
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Old 2007-12-19, 16:49   Link #53
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"Some who live deserve death. Some who die deserve life. But that's not for us to decide, we just have to decide what to do with the time that is given for us." - Paraphrasing Gandalf

But in my opinion, I don't think Makoto deserved to die. Looking back at September now, it feels kind of different. Makoto really should have had to pay the consequences for his actions, which was to support a child at a young age and ruin his chances in the future. He should not have had to pay anything more.
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Old 2007-12-19, 16:58   Link #54
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Originally Posted by Dr1ft3r View Post
Hate to say it man but that's the law and i don't see anyone changing it anytime soon....

It's just something that you'll have to accept.

So what your saying is that the age doesn't matter, if the crime is still committed by a 7 year old he/she should still be treated as an adult in the court of law?

Have u ever been a juvenille? because if you have been then i think that you would see things differently and be a little more merciful on the second chance idea.
What the legal system says should NOT be equated with "justice" (an ideal that is completely individual and abstract). I believe that what we're talking about is the "just" punishment for Makoto's behavior. Does he deserve death? Talking about the legal system doesn't even make sense, because Makoto did NOT break any laws. Unfortunately, being a complete ass is not a crime.

Being a juvenile should not be an excuse to escape responsibility. A 14 year old plotting and killing his entire family is no different from an 18 year old who commits the same act. Granted, a 10 year old accidentally swapping his dad's water for Clorox is different from a 18 year old doing this intentionally, but that is more a matter of intent and understanding the consequences of your actions. Age should not lessen Makoto's responsibility because he is old enough to know the consequences.

The point is, Makoto did what he did, and just because he ran away from the consequences doesn't mean he doesn't understand them. There is no excuse.

I agree with Deathkillz, he should just be castrated. For obviously failing as a human being and being fugly as hell, he shouldn't pass on his genes. However, killing him is probably too far to go. Who knows, maybe he'll commit suicide from not being able to have sex ever again
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Old 2007-12-19, 19:06   Link #55
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Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post
"Some who live deserve death. Some who die deserve life. But that's not for us to decide, we just have to decide what to do with the time that is given for us." - Paraphrasing Gandalf

But in my opinion, I don't think Makoto deserved to die. Looking back at September now, it feels kind of different. Makoto really should have had to pay the consequences for his actions, which was to support a child at a young age and ruin his chances in the future. He should not have had to pay anything more.
That is only taking into account the damage he has done to Sekai and even then, just giving child support is selling it short.
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Old 2007-12-19, 22:02   Link #56
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That is only taking into account the damage he has done to Sekai and even then, just giving child support is selling it short.
I'm not saying just child support. Like, drop out of school, father the child and raise him, and live the rest of his life in misery. Does it equate to the damage he did to Sekai? Probably not. But it's still the fair way. Both people pay the consequences for their actions, which is the child. Fair does not mean equal.

But regardless, I know what you mean, because he caused emotional damage on Kotonoha, Otome, Setsuna, and the others as well. But these things happen. He's a teenage boy who hasn't learned how to keep his pants zipper shut. How often has somebody slept around? Less often than not. But should that mean that person should be killed?
It was a poor decision on Makoto's part, but not something that should have resulted in his death. Especially because he didn't do anything remotely close to killing another girl. Besides, most of Kotonoha's anguish that I saw came from her bullies, not from Makoto. He was just an object they referenced to a lot.
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Old 2007-12-19, 22:41   Link #57
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he deserves to die because thats what made the anime good

but seriously, the girls are psycho for trying to kill him

most people past their 20s - sleep around, if they dont like what thier partner is doing, they just break up and move on

what makoto is doing is nothing really horredous, he is just handling puberty savagely

if the gendor roles were switch, i would still think that the people doing the killing are just messed up in the head

even if he was superman in bed thiers plenty of fish in the sea so people need to turn away from psychoness and move on
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Old 2007-12-19, 23:24   Link #58
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I'm not saying just child support. Like, drop out of school, father the child and raise him, and live the rest of his life in misery. Does it equate to the damage he did to Sekai? Probably not. But it's still the fair way. Both people pay the consequences for their actions, which is the child. Fair does not mean equal.

But regardless, I know what you mean, because he caused emotional damage on Kotonoha, Otome, Setsuna, and the others as well. But these things happen. He's a teenage boy who hasn't learned how to keep his pants zipper shut. How often has somebody slept around? Less often than not. But should that mean that person should be killed?
It was a poor decision on Makoto's part, but not something that should have resulted in his death. Especially because he didn't do anything remotely close to killing another girl. Besides, most of Kotonoha's anguish that I saw came from her bullies, not from Makoto. He was just an object they referenced to a lot.
That is only fair to Sekai since she was part of reason she got pregnant. That isnt even fair in my book, he'll end up just abusing and show no concern toward the child...Neglecting the damage to the other girls and letting him get away just because he impregnant a girl isnt enough. So just because he is a teenage boy and took advantage of the girls that gave him the opportunity, its ok? If every guy goes around sleeping around with every girl that jumps on you, you will see population skyrocket and everybody would end up with a std. Like I said before, if he can pull of such an act, he should be able to take the conquences that come with it.
Why do you think Kotonoha is willing to endure everything? Because she believes in the relationship that she has with Matoko...if it wasnt for this, I am sure she would have broken down way before the festival...Her anguish has a direct correlation to Matoko...
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Old 2007-12-20, 09:03   Link #59
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That is only fair to Sekai since she was part of reason she got pregnant. That isnt even fair in my book, he'll end up just abusing and show no concern toward the child...Neglecting the damage to the other girls and letting him get away just because he impregnant a girl isnt enough. So just because he is a teenage boy and took advantage of the girls that gave him the opportunity, its ok? If every guy goes around sleeping around with every girl that jumps on you, you will see population skyrocket and everybody would end up with a std. Like I said before, if he can pull of such an act, he should be able to take the conquences that come with it.
Why do you think Kotonoha is willing to endure everything? Because she believes in the relationship that she has with Matoko...if it wasnt for this, I am sure she would have broken down way before the festival...Her anguish has a direct correlation to Matoko...
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. What Makoto did was wrong. It was a mistake. It was vile and cruel. It is not how we should live our own lives. What I'm saying is that I do give him some benefit of the doubt, because he's just a teenager. His hormones are running high, he thinks with the wrong head, and he has no awareness of his surroundings. That's why I'm pushing it as a big mistake, rather than a purposeful act of pain and suffering.
The consequences of breaking a girl's heart is not death. If that was the case, every single person in a relationship would be forced to remain in the relationship through marriage and death, or die. That's all he did, he repeatedly broke other girls' hearts. They did the rest.
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Old 2007-12-20, 13:29   Link #60
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You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. What Makoto did was wrong. It was a mistake. It was vile and cruel. It is not how we should live our own lives. What I'm saying is that I do give him some benefit of the doubt, because he's just a teenager. His hormones are running high, he thinks with the wrong head, and he has no awareness of his surroundings. That's why I'm pushing it as a big mistake, rather than a purposeful act of pain and suffering.
The consequences of breaking a girl's heart is not death. If that was the case, every single person in a relationship would be forced to remain in the relationship through marriage and death, or die. That's all he did, he repeatedly broke other girls' hearts. They did the rest.
There is no doubt what he did was wrong. Yet again, the age. We have all been teenagers, even when your "horny", you dont take advantage of every freaking girl you see. It wasnt like Sekai wasnt putting out enough to satisfy his needs...Sekai was willing to have sex with him so often that I am not surprised she ended up pregnant and yet he wants more? That is not just a mistake, even though he "MIGHT" not have the intent of hurting Sekai but while sleeping with other girls while officially dating her, just acting the way he is, is hurting her and behind her back sleep with another girl..

You are right that breaking a girls heart doesnt result in death since I would be dead as well if that did happen but he broke at least 3 girls heart, got 1 pregnant, cause 1 to go insane and lastly, FELT NO REMORSE. Thats the thing that is bugging me the most. He shown no sign of redemption for his actions and just went on doing what he did before that only caused more pain to the girls.
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