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Old 2007-12-21, 09:17   Link #181
Mistacloudstrife
"I'll cut them off..."
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
Spoiler for Manga Spoiler:
I stand corrected. Using any tailed form causes damage then.

Quote:
The fact is that we still don't know what the real effects of extracting the Kyuubi from Naruto will be. He is the first one to have the Kyuubi sealed in him, so who knows?
But if you are saying that he is like Gaara or any other Jinchuuriki, the his situation would be that of a tree, Cut the root and the tree dies, the root might grow a new tree in which Naruto is the tree and Kyuubi the root. Or a lizard, cut his legs and they will grow back while the former leg decaies. in which case Kyuubi is the Lizard with the head and torso and Naruto is its hands and legs.
And how are you so very sure which is the root and which is the tree? And we aren't talking about reality here. This is a world where death is avoidable through means of special techniques. And I know that Gaara died, I meant that he survived. If someone dies, and is brought back to life, I believe you could still consider that surviving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
-Too bad that for the purpose of this argument the Kyuubi belongs to the kind of parasite that DOES kill it's host.
It might be true, but if I die from a tapeworm, I'm not one with the tapeworm. I am not a new variation of human or tapeworm. I am a person with a tapeworm inside of me that died.

Quote:
-If you are going to use Gaara's predicament for this then you need to understand that he did in fact die when Shukaku was extracted. Both Sakura and Chiyo (who are well versed in human anatomy) confirmed this. If I had to compare this extraction to a real-life situation I would say that it is similar to getting your heart ripped out by forceful entry of your enemies' hand. For the record, the only reason Gaara lived was because Chiyo gave him her own life. This also explains why:
Spoiler for manga:
Take this information as you like but the evidence points that for a jinchuuriki, be they Naruto or Gaara, it is imperative that they remain one with them. Otherwise they die.
Yes he died, but he came back to life. And why did he come back to life? If he died from the Jinchuuriki being extracted and he and the junchuuriki were one being, wouldn't that mean that even if he were brought back to life, if the jinchuuriki, or the other half of his being were still gone, wouldn't that mean that he would only be half a being?

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-One more thing: refrain from bringing in a Kyuubi-less Naruto into this. Like it or not such a being does not exist in the manga and will most likely never see the light of day. Stick to what has happened up to this point.
If a Jinchuuriki-less Gaara can be mentioned, then I don't see why a Jinchuuriki-less Naruto could be mentioned as theory. I don't see you completely denying the possibility of a Kyuubi-less Naruto. And you know why? Since Gaara had his extracted and is now alive, it gives the same possibility for Naruto as well.


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-As long as he is not using the 4th tail he is in control of himself, his power, and his actions (though he loses more control the more power he uses). And besides all ninja have to learn to call out chakra for their jutsu. Naruto just happens to have 2 types that exist within him as one. Since he was not aware of the other inner power that he has he had to learn to call it out and therefore control it. It's similar to you drinking mass litres of juice, turning it to urine then firing it from your pecker at a high enough speed to pierce armour (feel free to laugh at this ). As long as it reamins within him it is his to do with as he pleases. If that power existed outside of his body (as in anywhere but there) then I would agree with you. But the fact remains that the Kyuubi exists within Naruto so therefore I cannot.
He's in control of himself, his power and his actions... but not the Kyuubi's chakra, which was what you were talking about originally. And I think it's more like having two bladders... one with an enormous amount of urine stored, and another with a million times more than the other.(hard to picture, but yeah) And when he calls the Kyuubi's power(or the bladder with a huge amount of urine. And yeah, he could TRY to control it, but he never does) the urine(power) just comes out and he just fires it at whatever he wants.(uses whatever jutsus he wants on whomever he wants) But in doing so there's alot of potential urine that is spilled every which way that wasn't used to hit anything.(Alot of wasted kyuubi chakra that wasn't used for jutsus)

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-For the record Sasuke's chakra also changed when the Cursed Seal activated. Since the change is similar to these characters it is likely that the only reason this comment applies is because Naruto's chakra reserves suddenly go from blue to red. All it does is switch properties that's it. Therefore the 2 are one entity since I told you that a Kyuubi-less Naruto does not exist in Kishimoto's story.
You said yourself in the same post.

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"Naruto just happens to have 2 types that exist within him as one."
And now you're saying that Naruto's chakra changes? It goes from Naruto's chakra to Kyuubi's chakra. Naruto's chakra doesn't change color. Perhaps Sasuke's changes because of the Cursed Seal, but the Kyuubi's chakra and Sasuke's Cursed Seal chakra are two different things.

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-Even if the 2 minds are separate they still share one body and therefore share the same existance. This is not like in Bleach where Ichigo can remove his soul and then place Kon in for it to take over. Naruto and the Kyuubi share the same body and life. The body's death would spell the end for both of them. Case in point: 2 minds, but one single existance. Wheter it is cheap or not is dependant on the reader and the author.
So using your statement, you would consider siamese twins who would have the same body but separate minds, one being??? I wouldn't think that at all.
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Old 2007-12-21, 10:39   Link #182
Luminion Lancer
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...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistacloudstrife View Post
It might be true, but if I die from a tapeworm, I'm not one with the tapeworm. I am not a new variation of human or tapeworm. I am a person with a tapeworm inside of me that died.
-Granted if the tapeworm's presence being there wasn't connected to your lifeline. Fact remains that the Kyuubi existing within Naruto is imperative for his survival. I don't know any other character besides Chiyo that can revive the dead do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistacloudstrife View Post
Yes he died, but he came back to life. And why did he come back to life? If he died from the Jinchuuriki being extracted and he and the junchuuriki were one being, wouldn't that mean that even if he were brought back to life, if the jinchuuriki, or the other half of his being were still gone, wouldn't that mean that he would only be half a being?
-Imagine this if you will: you were missing half an organ which was needed for living. At some point in time a doctor added another half of the same organ to be added to your own. The operation is a success and over-time that other half merged and became a part of your own body. But then someone else comes along and decides to rip out that added half and you fall to your death (maybe not immedietly but you would still die). This is what happened to Gaara and any other jinchuuriki to date that had their bijuu extracted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistacloudstrife View Post
If a Jinchuuriki-less Gaara can be mentioned, then I don't see why a Jinchuuriki-less Naruto could be mentioned as theory. I don't see you completely denying the possibility of a Kyuubi-less Naruto. And you know why? Since Gaara had his extracted and is now alive, it gives the same possibility for Naruto as well.
-Do you know why you shouldn't bring that up? It's because a Shukaku-less Gaara does in fact exist but a Kyuubi-less Naruto does not (at the very least not in the scope of the current storyline). You seem to really like this theory and I wonder why since a Kyuubi-less Naruto is a dead rotting corpse in a nameless grave while his enemies piss on it. As a theory it's fine to accept it if we were to discuss it. However we are backing things up here with the facts that we know, not theories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistacloudstrife View Post
He's in control of himself, his power and his actions... but not the Kyuubi's chakra, which was what you were talking about originally. And I think it's more like having two bladders... one with an enormous amount of urine stored, and another with a million times more than the other.(hard to picture, but yeah) And when he calls the Kyuubi's power(or the bladder with a huge amount of urine. And yeah, he could TRY to control it, but he never does) the urine(power) just comes out and he just fires it at whatever he wants.(uses whatever jutsus he wants on whomever he wants) But in doing so there's alot of potential urine that is spilled every which way that wasn't used to hit anything.(Alot of wasted kyuubi chakra that wasn't used for jutsus)
-I never denied that the Kyuubi and Naruto are 2 separate minds trapped in one body. What I am trying to point out is that chakra is still chakra and whosever body it resides in it is the property of that said individual body. The Kyuubi himself stated the following: "Show them what OUR power can do". He didn't say "my power" but "our power" indicating that the chakra that Naruto uses (be it blue or red) belongs to him. He's in control as long as he doesn't lose his mind and then his destructive instincs take over.

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Originally Posted by Mistacloudstrife View Post
You said yourself in the same post.

And now you're saying that Naruto's chakra changes? It goes from Naruto's chakra to Kyuubi's chakra. Naruto's chakra doesn't change color. Perhaps Sasuke's changes because of the Cursed Seal, but the Kyuubi's chakra and Sasuke's Cursed Seal chakra are two different things.
-First of all let me apologize for not wording my thoughts correctly since I was rather tired at the time. What I should have said is that Naruto's chakra has 2 different properties to it. When he's calm Naruto's chakra exists in the "blue form" which is what you'd consider it's normal state. That "blue form" however still has some Kyuubi properties to it but it is not being used. As Naruto draws on more and more power (or gets angrier) the Kyuubi properties start taking on the role of the now dromant "blue form" until it is restored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistacloudstrife View Post
So using your statement, you would consider siamese twins who would have the same body but separate minds, one being??? I wouldn't think that at all.
-Those twins aren't bound to the same lifeline like the Kyuubi and Naruto are. If one of those twins dies the other can still live on. They would need to share the same soul, not the mind, before they are in the same boat as our objects of discussion.
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Old 2007-12-21, 11:54   Link #183
Mistacloudstrife
"I'll cut them off..."
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
-Granted if the tapeworm's presence being there wasn't connected to your lifeline. Fact remains that the Kyuubi existing within Naruto is imperative for his survival. I don't know any other character besides Chiyo that can revive the dead do you?
Chiyo may be the only one we've seen revive the dead, yes. But there is the possibility of others. We have Ninjas who can transfer themselves between bodies, Ninja's that can transplant organs, and Ninja's who can extract poison straight from someoes body. It wouldn't be suprising if another Ninja could bring back the dead, or even have a better technique at doing the same thing.

Quote:
-Imagine this if you will: you were missing half an organ which was needed for living. At some point in time a doctor added another half of the same organ to be added to your own. The operation is a success and over-time that other half merged and became a part of your own body. But then someone else comes along and decides to rip out that added half and you fall to your death (maybe not immedietly but you would still die). This is what happened to Gaara and any other jinchuuriki to date that had their bijuu extracted.
So either you're saying that this half an organ can somehow operate on it's own after Gaara is revived, or Chiyo replaced it again? Either way, if Gaara can survive so can Naruto. It's not completely impossible with what was shown to us in the manga/anime. And that's a fact. =P


Quote:
-Do you know why you shouldn't bring that up? It's because a Shukaku-less Gaara does in fact exist but a Kyuubi-less Naruto does not (at the very least not in the scope of the current storyline). You seem to really like this theory and I wonder why since a Kyuubi-less Naruto is a dead rotting corpse in a nameless grave while his enemies piss on it. As a theory it's fine to accept it if we were to discuss it. However we are backing things up here with the facts that we know, not theories.
Alright. Then tell me this. Is it an UNDENIABLE FACT that Naruto and the Kyuubi are ONE BEING? Meaning it's either stated in the manga or by Kishimoto himself. True or not? Completely undeniable? Still want to keep pushing your "no theories, facts only" discussion when we've been debating about theory the entire time?

Quote:
-I never denied that the Kyuubi and Naruto are 2 separate minds trapped in one body. What I am trying to point out is that chakra is still chakra and whosever body it resides in it is the property of that said individual body. The Kyuubi himself stated the following: "Show them what OUR power can do". He didn't say "my power" but "our power" indicating that the chakra that Naruto uses (be it blue or red) belongs to him. He's in control as long as he doesn't lose his mind and then his destructive instincs take over.
Heh... You should really quote the entire passage. I believe just a tiny teeny weeny little bit further the Kyuubi says this. "You need my power, don't you? Tell me who do you want to kill ?" So he does say "My Power"... in fact, right after the quote you put up.


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-First of all let me apologize for not wording my thoughts correctly since I was rather tired at the time. What I should have said is that Naruto's chakra has 2 different properties to it. When he's calm Naruto's chakra exists in the "blue form" which is what you'd consider it's normal state. That "blue form" however still has some Kyuubi properties to it but it is not being used. As Naruto draws on more and more power (or gets angrier) the Kyuubi properties start taking on the role of the now dromant "blue form" until it is restored.
Don't worry about it. I do it all the time... I'm going to disagree with this. I don't like the idea that Naruto has two different properties to his chakra. I would say that in his body there ARE two different chakras. One which is Naruto's and one which is the Kyuubi's. Which is why Naruto sees the Kyuubi when he wants his power...(Or at least they showed this when he figured out he could get chakra from the Kyuubi) It also happens when he's angry, at which point his face marks which look like whiskers get darker and he begins to look more like a fox, and at that point the Kyuubi's natural instincts kick in and influence Naruto to act as if he were a fox. And the further tails he goes, obviously the more power he obtains and the more influence the Kyuubi has on his body, since in Naruto's mind it's shown as if the Kyuubi is bypassing the cage more and more.


Quote:
-Those twins aren't bound to the same lifeline like the Kyuubi and Naruto are. If one of those twins dies the other can still live on. They would need to share the same soul, not the mind, before they are in the same boat as our objects of discussion.
So Naruto and the Kyuubi share the same soul now? I would like to request a reference where exactly it states that the Kyuubi and Naruto's soul are one in the same.
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Old 2007-12-21, 12:11   Link #184
siya
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Originally Posted by Mistacloudstrife View Post
So Naruto and the Kyuubi share the same soul now? I would like to request a reference where exactly it states that the Kyuubi and Naruto's soul are one in the same.
They don't share the same soul. The Kyuubi's soul is trapped within Naruto...that's just it. I find it kind of weird that the Kyuubi still has his Chakra though...this states that the power is with in everyone's souls does it not? Also, I think people would treat Naruto like he's a god if they knew he could easily relase the Kyuubi just by cutting a little seal with in his mind...xD
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Old 2007-12-21, 13:21   Link #185
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
-If you are going to use Gaara's predicament for this then you need to understand that he did in fact die when Shukaku was extracted. Both Sakura and Chiyo (who are well versed in human anatomy) confirmed this. If I had to compare this extraction to a real-life situation I would say that it is similar to getting your heart ripped out by forceful entry of your enemies' hand. For the record, the only reason Gaara lived was because Chiyo gave him her own life. This also explains why:
Spoiler for manga:
Take this information as you like but the evidence points that for a jinchuuriki, be they Naruto or Gaara, it is imperative that they remain one with them. Otherwise they die.
In a way, I agree with Mistacloudstrife's opinion on this. The fact that Gaara is alive after having the Shukaku extracted proves that the bijuu isn't essential to the jinchuuriki's life, or else Gaara couldn't have been revived. Comparing the bijuu to an organ like the heart doesn't really apply here because there's no way to go on living without a heart. Even if you could be revived after losing your heart, you would still need to be revived with a new heart (or at least something that performs the function of a heart). We know that's not true with the bijuu.

I don't know if it's the case that there's absolutely no way a bijuu can be removed without killing the jinchuuriki or if that Akatsuki's method of removing the beasts is fatal. Could be that the situation is like a tumor. Some tumors can't be removed because they are in a place in the body were removing it would prove fatal. However, this isn't because the tumor is crucial to the body's survival, in fact, it is the opposite. So I don't think the jinchuuriki dependence on the bijuu is really proven.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistacloudstrife View Post

Don't worry about it. I do it all the time... I'm going to disagree with this. I don't like the idea that Naruto has two different properties to his chakra. I would say that in his body there ARE two different chakras. One which is Naruto's and one which is the Kyuubi's.
Yes and no. Naruto does have two different chakras. But as stated before, his own chakra has been mixing with Kyuubi's chakra over time. And his natural chakra does have properties that are owed to the Kyuubi. This is why he has ridiculous stamina and can heal fast even when he's not in Kyuubi mode. It's also a reason why he has such difficulty controlling his chakra.
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Old 2007-12-21, 13:25   Link #186
siya
An Intellectual Idiot
 
 
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
In a way, I agree with Mistacloudstrife's opinion on this. The fact that Gaara is alive after having the Shukaku extracted proves that the bijuu isn't essential to the jinchuuriki's life, or else Gaara couldn't have been revived. Comparing the bijuu to an organ like the heart doesn't really apply here because there's no way to go on living without a heart. Even if you could be revived after losing your heart, you would still need to be revived with a new heart (or at least something that performs the function of a heart). We know that's not true with the bijuu.

I don't know if it's the case that there's absolutely no way a bijuu can be removed without killing the jinchuuriki or if that Akatsuki's method of removing the beasts is fatal. Could be that the situation is like a tumor. Some tumors can't be removed because they are in a place in the body were removing it would prove fatal. However, this isn't because the tumor is crucial to the body's survival, in fact, it is the opposite. So I don't think the jinchuuriki dependence on the bijuu is really proven.




Yes and no. Naruto does have two different chakras. But as stated before, his own chakra has been mixing with Kyuubi's chakra over time. And his natural chakra does have properties that are owed to the Kyuubi. This is why he has ridiculous stamina and can heal fast even when he's not in Kyuubi mode. It's also a reason why he has such difficulty controlling his chakra.
Well, If you look in past chapters, you see that Naruto has the ability to relase the Kyuubi at anytime....So my guess would be the the Juncjuuriki's wont willingly give it up, so the Akatsuki forcable takes it, which is obviously fatal. Now, we don't know that Naruto wont die if he does relase it, but since the Kyuubi tried to tempt him to do it, I doubt it would....
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Old 2007-12-21, 15:53   Link #187
Luminion Lancer
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Originally Posted by Mistacloudstrife View Post
Chiyo may be the only one we've seen revive the dead, yes. But there is the possibility of others. We have Ninjas who can transfer themselves between bodies, Ninja's that can transplant organs, and Ninja's who can extract poison straight from someoes body. It wouldn't be suprising if another Ninja could bring back the dead, or even have a better technique at doing the same thing.

So either you're saying that this half an organ can somehow operate on it's own after Gaara is revived, or Chiyo replaced it again? Either way, if Gaara can survive so can Naruto. It's not completely impossible with what was shown to us in the manga/anime. And that's a fact. =P

Alright. Then tell me this. Is it an UNDENIABLE FACT that Naruto and the Kyuubi are ONE BEING? Meaning it's either stated in the manga or by Kishimoto himself. True or not? Completely undeniable? Still want to keep pushing your "no theories, facts only" discussion when we've been debating about theory the entire time?

Heh... You should really quote the entire passage. I believe just a tiny teeny weeny little bit further the Kyuubi says this. "You need my power, don't you? Tell me who do you want to kill ?" So he does say "My Power"... in fact, right after the quote you put up.

Don't worry about it. I do it all the time... I'm going to disagree with this. I don't like the idea that Naruto has two different properties to his chakra. I would say that in his body there ARE two different chakras. One which is Naruto's and one which is the Kyuubi's. Which is why Naruto sees the Kyuubi when he wants his power...(Or at least they showed this when he figured out he could get chakra from the Kyuubi) It also happens when he's angry, at which point his face marks which look like whiskers get darker and he begins to look more like a fox, and at that point the Kyuubi's natural instincts kick in and influence Naruto to act as if he were a fox. And the further tails he goes, obviously the more power he obtains and the more influence the Kyuubi has on his body, since in Naruto's mind it's shown as if the Kyuubi is bypassing the cage more and more.

So Naruto and the Kyuubi share the same soul now? I would like to request a reference where exactly it states that the Kyuubi and Naruto's soul are one in the same.
*I'll go about responding to this in sequential order if you don't mind. This is the last responce I will make in regards to this issue. Take the last word if you want after.*

-Points 1-2. Yes I am sure there are thousands upon thousands of ninja who are practitioners of Tensei no jutsu that all the villagers are flourishing with them. There are so many that they are willing to sacrifice their lives for someone they never got a chance to know properly at the drop of a hat. You seem to be under the impression that we will always be granted with some new throw-away character that can use the Tensi no jutsu. I am sorry to say but that card has already been played once in the story and that was more than enough. Doing it more than once will make Naruto DBZ's retarded little brother. "Oh my best friend is dead. *Sigh* may as well gather up the balls and make that revival wish again". So either you want Naruto to keep his life with the Kyuubi or you want him to die a slow and painful death and then laugh at his misfortune saying "That's what you get for being what you are". And before you go and say to me or yourself "But if he's revived then its all well and good" let me remind you that it is not. If that were to happen then he's better off staying dead since the power he had worked so hard to achieve will be gone and his enemies certainly will not wait for him to get stronger again. They'll kill him the moment he revives.

-Point 3. Naruto and the Kyuubi make up one particular entity. They are 2 parts that make a whole. That makes sense to me why not you?

-Point 4. I thought we were arguing points and facts rather rather than theories but whatever you say. In any case that dialogue seems contradictory to me if he used both "our" and "my" in the same scene. Then again the Kyuubi's mind is prideful so I suppose it believes it still has ownership over the power that was transfered to Naruto.

-Point 5. If that is the case then why does that seal even exist if it doesn't block the chakra away fully? The Kyuubi is an intelligent mind I'm sure he could figure out that he can force his influence through and strike at any given moment. Naruto could be taking a stroll to the marketplace and then BOOM Kyuubi gets out. But that hasn't happened yet now has it? Now the question stands as to why?

-Point 6. Soul, life it's really something that solidifies the significance between Naruto and the Kyuubi. The entity that they form will die should the Kyuubi ever get extracted and vice versa. Orochimaru stated long ago back in the Forest of Death "For the last 12 years they've been merging", but you already knew this right? This shoul automatically tell you that the 2 share this existance.

*Anyways this is it for me. You've been a good sport and I'll give you rep points for that.*

-BTW Sabaku Kyu I don't know if you remember but Chiyo stated that all jinchuuriki that have their bijuu removed die. After all she was the one that extracted the Shukaku from 2 different hosts prior to sealing it in Gaara and they both died. I wouldn`t doubt it if all the other methods that involve this process end up fatal.
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Old 2007-12-21, 22:16   Link #188
Mistacloudstrife
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Join Date: Jan 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
*I'll go about responding to this in sequential order if you don't mind. This is the last responce I will make in regards to this issue. Take the last word if you want after.*
AH! You got bored of me!? Fine, whatever. =P


Quote:
-Points 1-2. Yes I am sure there are thousands upon thousands of ninja who are practitioners of Tensei no jutsu that all the villagers are flourishing with them. There are so many that they are willing to sacrifice their lives for someone they never got a chance to know properly at the drop of a hat. You seem to be under the impression that we will always be granted with some new throw-away character that can use the Tensi no jutsu. I am sorry to say but that card has already been played once in the story and that was more than enough.
Yes, I agree that one time would be enough, but since it's already happened before, so it opens the possibility of it happening again. Say someone finds a cure for death in our world, but the person who figured it out died. The possibility of the cure for death confirms that it's possible, and thus it can happen again. If it DOES happen again is another matter, but the fact remains it can still happen.


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Doing it more than once will make Naruto DBZ's retarded little brother. "Oh my best friend is dead. *Sigh* may as well gather up the balls and make that revival wish again". So either you want Naruto to keep his life with the Kyuubi or you want him to die a slow and painful death and then laugh at his misfortune saying "That's what you get for being what you are". And before you go and say to me or yourself "But if he's revived then its all well and good" let me remind you that it is not. If that were to happen then he's better off staying dead since the power he had worked so hard to achieve will be gone and his enemies certainly will not wait for him to get stronger again. They'll kill him the moment he revives.
I don't know if I should break it to you slowly or not but from what I see, Naruto is pretty much going down the Dragon Ball Z route even without the use of reviving fallen comrades. Adding in the first revival already put it in the same basket as DBZ, and all another revival will do is further confirm that it's going down the same path DBZ did.

And about Naruto dying a slow and painful death. Isn't that what you were saying was happening to him, seeing as you thought of the Kyuubi as a Parasite that would eventually kill his host? So then it shouldn't really matter. Plus, if he were to lose "all the power he achieved" after the Kyuubi is extracted, then wouldn't that mean it wasn't his power in the first place? Kyuubi isn't a power he has achieved, it's a power he learned how to call forth.


Quote:
-Point 3. Naruto and the Kyuubi make up one particular entity. They are 2 parts that make a whole. That makes sense to me why not you?
They are one body. It's never been said that they were one and the same. And the fact that they are two foreign beings in one body means that even though they're power might have joined together a bit through the use of a medium(Naruto's Body) doesn't mean that the same body means they share the same soul, or existence. And furthermore, if Gaara(Yes, I'm bringing this back) can be alive without his Junchuuriki that means he didn't have the same soul as it, and thus can either 1)live without a soul or 2)didn't share the same soul as his jinchuuriki.


Quote:
-Point 4. I thought we were arguing points and facts rather rather than theories but whatever you say. In any case that dialogue seems contradictory to me if he used both "our" and "my" in the same scene. Then again the Kyuubi's mind is prideful so I suppose it believes it still has ownership over the power that was transfered to Naruto.
We are trying to argue facts, but you can't debate Naruto without some forms of theory. Souls for example have been talked about for a bit. But have humans confirmed the existence of a soul in a human? No... but that doesn't change how we're using the existence of a soul in this debate, and quite regularly without debating about the existence or nonexistence of souls itself.

And I think not only the Kyuubi, but even Naruto himself thinks of the Kyuubi's power is not his own.


Quote:
-Point 5. If that is the case then why does that seal even exist if it doesn't block the chakra away fully? The Kyuubi is an intelligent mind I'm sure he could figure out that he can force his influence through and strike at any given moment. Naruto could be taking a stroll to the marketplace and then BOOM Kyuubi gets out. But that hasn't happened yet now has it? Now the question stands as to why?
Either Naruto lets the power of the Kyuubi come out on his own, which he's done quite a few times in the anime, or it lets loose everytime Naruto gets angry/emotional, in which I think that the Kyuubi believes he can go free after he's taken complete control of Naruto.(Which is pretty much true) As to why the Kyuubi doesn't come out completely is because of the seal, like I said before, Naruto and the Kyuubi are seen as if the Kyuubi is jailed inside of Naruto, the bars hold him back to some extent, but his chakra can flow through pretty easily.


Quote:
-Point 6. Soul, life it's really something that solidifies the significance between Naruto and the Kyuubi. The entity that they form will die should the Kyuubi ever get extracted and vice versa. Orochimaru stated long ago back in the Forest of Death "For the last 12 years they've been merging", but you already knew this right? This shoul automatically tell you that the 2 share this existance.
The word merging doesn't mean they've "merged" already. They are still two separate beings. So that should automatically tell you that the two still have 2 separate existences.

Quote:
*Anyways this is it for me. You've been a good sport and I'll give you rep points for that.*
Maybe we'll get to debate about something more than just "is Naruto and Kyuubi one" later on. *reps*
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Old 2007-12-22, 01:01   Link #189
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Naruto is just a container for Kyuubi it just so happens that kyuubi needs his "container" to survive.
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Old 2007-12-22, 02:54   Link #190
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In reply to Mistacloudestrife,

Not going to go into a long debate, since the subject is beaten to death and we each have our own interpretation. However just to address a few things.....

1. To continue along with the analogy used earlier with the colored water in a glass... I see the whole naruto/Kyubi situation as this:

We have Naruto (water) and Kyubi (red dye) and then Naruto's body (glass cup). At birth water and red dye mixed to form the glass cup we see today. Now say Akatsuki got their hands on Naruto. They extract Kyubi and Naruto dies. How do we explain Naruto dying since physically there's nothing wrong with his body? I theorize they are probably attacking the soul. What's one way to separate water from contaminations? Evaporate it. So we will have a Glass (Naruto's Body) + red dye (Kyubi) left in Naruto's body. Akatsuki takes care of the red dye by pulling it into their dragon summon. Now we have an empty container.

How was Gaara brought back to life? Again nothing was wrong physically with his body. I theorize that Chiyo used her life force to convert that evaporated water back into 'water' so that it may return to its glass.


2. Regardless of the arguements, the original statement that started this all was that you felt Naruto is cheap for using Kyubi's chakra. So this really is just a matter of opinion on what each of us considers cheap. Would you call all the home owners cheap for collecting rent from those who occupy their property? In this case Naruto's ability to use Kyubi's chakra as a result of his occupation of Naruto's being. Also Naruto has finally learned the consequences of going kyubified since his last use that resulted in Sakura's injuries. He hasn't sprouted tails since. You can only blame him if he was aware and continued to use it. However this was the first time he was informed of his power actually hurting those around him. I wonder why Jiraya never told him about the four tail transformation.


3. The reason why Naruto doesn't just go Kyubified at any moment's notice is because his chakra hold's back the Kyubi's chakra. I believe this was mentioned by Jiriaya on a few occasions. Also explains why during the training arc Yamato was needed to keep naruto in check as he was constantly draining is own natural chakra to a low enough level that Kyubi's chakra overwhelmed and leaked out at a faster pace. Its also a fact that Kyubi's chakra constantly mixes with Naruto's chakra regardless of Naruto's will.
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Old 2007-12-22, 03:44   Link #191
Mistacloudstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vindi89 View Post
In reply to Mistacloudestrife,

Not going to go into a long debate, since the subject is beaten to death and we each have our own interpretation. However just to address a few things.....

1. To continue along with the analogy used earlier with the colored water in a glass... I see the whole naruto/Kyubi situation as this:

We have Naruto (water) and Kyubi (red dye) and then Naruto's body (glass cup). At birth water and red dye mixed to form the glass cup we see today. Now say Akatsuki got their hands on Naruto. They extract Kyubi and Naruto dies. How do we explain Naruto dying since physically there's nothing wrong with his body? I theorize they are probably attacking the soul. What's one way to separate water from contaminations? Evaporate it. So we will have a Glass (Naruto's Body) + red dye (Kyubi) left in Naruto's body. Akatsuki takes care of the red dye by pulling it into their dragon summon. Now we have an empty container.

How was Gaara brought back to life? Again nothing was wrong physically with his body. I theorize that Chiyo used her life force to convert that evaporated water back into 'water' so that it may return to its glass.
Uh... I don't know if the evaporating analogy works well in this situation. If the water, or Naruto is evaporated that means the red dye(I'm assuming some sort of powered dye since non-alchoholic liquid dye would evaporate as well) would stay inside of the Glass(Naruto's body). But the Kyuubi was the one pulled out of the body.

I think the parasite theory works better in this situation. The Kyuubi was sealed in Naruto, where he had to survive by becoming a sort of parasite by using Naruto's body, although he didn't have control of it for a long time until a long time later in the anime. And by now the parasite has affixed itself somewhat to Naruto. I think you could think of it as if you were to place your body against another persons body for a long enough time(I mean over a decade) the flesh would begin to bond, in some form. Like this but in a more spiritual sense. If the Kyuubi were to just be torn away from Naruto, the wound inflicted by suddenly tearing them apart would be fatal. Chiyo on the other hand somehow is able to fix this problem... The thing I don't understand is she is a medical ninja. I don't think she would be able to heal any sort of spiritual injury. I think perhaps the wound by tearing the two apart might actually be physical. Having an enormous amount of chakra being ripped from your insides and sucked out through your mouth, eyes, and pores would probably cause some sort of physical damage.(Not to mention the Akatsuki try to do this as fast as they can and even then it takes a very long time) If this damage is the cause for death, I don't know. It could be both spiritual and physical damage as well.


Quote:
2. Regardless of the arguements, the original statement that started this all was that you felt Naruto is cheap for using Kyubi's chakra. So this really is just a matter of opinion on what each of us considers cheap. Would you call all the home owners cheap for collecting rent from those who occupy their property? In this case Naruto's ability to use Kyubi's chakra as a result of his occupation of Naruto's being. Also Naruto has finally learned the consequences of going kyubified since his last use that resulted in Sakura's injuries. He hasn't sprouted tails since. You can only blame him if he was aware and continued to use it. However this was the first time he was informed of his power actually hurting those around him. I wonder why Jiraya never told him about the four tail transformation.
I think of it more like... if Goku had the ability to go SSJ4 since Dragon Ball. The fact that he has this power(may not use it, but still has it) since the beginning and still has much more power to go(that really isn't his own) and this power acts like the obvious trump card against the harder opponents, I consider that cheap. When Orochimaru comes up and you know Naruto can't beat him using normal means, we all know the trump card, Kyuubi, is going to come out. It isn't cheap in the sense that he's evenly matched now. It's cheap in the sense that no matter how strong the people are going to get, Naruto is going to have another tail waiting for that opponent. And maybe we'll get some, "zOMG, impossible, he can't turn back when he's in 5-tailed form! O.O OMFG he did it anywaiz! Naruto is AMAAAZZINNGG" moments afterwards.


Quote:
3. The reason why Naruto doesn't just go Kyubified at any moment's notice is because his chakra hold's back the Kyubi's chakra. I believe this was mentioned by Jiriaya on a few occasions. Also explains why during the training arc Yamato was needed to keep naruto in check as he was constantly draining is own natural chakra to a low enough level that Kyubi's chakra overwhelmed and leaked out at a faster pace. Its also a fact that Kyubi's chakra constantly mixes with Naruto's chakra regardless of Naruto's will.
Sorry I don't know which of my posts this refers to.
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Old 2007-12-23, 16:48   Link #192
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I think that Naruto has the ability to defeat anybody so long as he utilizes the Summoning Jutsu and the Kage Bushin No Jutsu
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Old 2007-12-23, 18:02   Link #193
Mistacloudstrife
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Naruto only summon Gamma-Bunta after utilizing the Kyuubi chakra? So for now, Naruto can't summon Gamma-Bunta without the Kyuubi, therefore, he can't beat everyone using only his own chakra for summoning and kage bunshin. Not to mention that Kishimoto has made kage bunshin out to be a weak jutsu despite it being a secret technique. How many people have made that poofing sound while fighting Naruto's clones? Countless. And people like Neji and Kimimaro have owned armies worth of Kage Bunshins pretty easily.
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Old 2007-12-23, 18:52   Link #194
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the reason that naruto couldn't summon with his chakra is cause he sucked at controlling it. i think you have to put specific amounts for different frogs. he uses the kyuubu chakra--maximum and summons boss. i know that naruto adn the kyuubi aren't one but i just couldn't agree, that it was cheap. cause naruto is a jinchuuriki, and a jinchuuriki's skill depends on how well he can controll his bijuu powers(that is right i said his, its in his body thus belongs to him, and he has the right to use it.) the more power naruto draws the harder it is to control himself. so its not cheap untill the kyuubi takes over. when it is they kyuubi fighting for naruto(1st time he turned 1 tail, and 4-tails) it is obviously not his power. but untill then its him controlling the kyuubi powers and i think its fair. cause as we saw against oro, just cause he has powerfull chakra doesn't mean he knows how to use it to its full potential.(god forbid it was anyone else with the kyuubi, it would have been really cheap )

about another coming out for every new bad guy, that is just a shonen thing, there will always be another power up for the new bad guys.
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Old 2007-12-23, 19:07   Link #195
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There is one thing that has been bothering me. Naruto's powers when used with the Kyuubi seams to increase a great deal even by tailed beast standards. What I mean is that the manga and anime said something about the Kyuubi able to create tsunamies, crumble mountins easily, yet Naruto seams to be able to do that while using less then half of the Kyuubi's full power.
Also in the manga and anime when Naruto travels in his mind. Kyuubi said "Let's show them our power". What's with the word "our"? Doesn't he mean his(Kyuubi) power? And I know it could have been to fool Naruto into using it, but still....

The reason I think that Naruto's power is much greater then a the Kyuubi in his big size, is because the chakra itself is compressed making it harder and power powerfull. But there could be a number of resons, this is just one...
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Old 2007-12-23, 22:57   Link #196
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Originally Posted by Naruto_spartan View Post
From what I read, I understood that Kishimoto never wanted Naruto to be a super inteligent , super skilled power house from the begining.
He wanted Naruto to be more simple, more normal, in other words a little stupid, because this way people can simphatize and asociate themselves with him. They can understand the boy better.
Why he didn't make Naruto very inteligent?
It's because he (Kishimoto) didn't like the idea, in his vision, you can't understand a super ginieus and you can frequently become jealous or sad because you can't asociate youself with him.
Naruto is like the kind of guy that uses the skills he develops or he learns and not steal or tries to copy others, because he is a very independent character.

Naruto is made to be a lot like Goku from Dragonball Z.

He and Jiraiya have much in common(if you look at it from a certain point of view), but Naruto has something more, something that made greate kings and leaders, something that brought peace and justice wherever they go, but at the same time it brings power. Maybe it's determination, to the point of stuborness, or more simply..... "STUPIDITY".
I think that's bull to be honest, if you look at the manga, you can clearly see the character that Kishi prefers. In fact didn't he go on record stating that Sasuke was his favourite? People aren't going to relate to Naruto because he's got less options. I mean he's still got the fox in him ffs.

Naruto is just a neglected character who gets dumbed down at every possible opportunity. Prime example is if you compare him and Sakura versus Kakashi and then him and Sai versus Tenzou.

He's kept weak for absolutely no reason. I mean where is his ability to summon the frogs of his choosing? In fact i covered this in another post, let me quote
Spoiler for from How will Jiraiya and his students's fates shape the events to come?:


Spoiler:
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Old 2007-12-24, 00:17   Link #197
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-Lets see now: will Naruto be stronger than the Hokage? Nope, not in a million years (no wait that's too soon so make that a billion). With Kishimoto's massive tendency to downplay Naruto in every single way imaginable the chances of Naruto becoming stronger than the Hokage are about the same as me being attractive to beautiful single women. What will most likely happen is that Naruto will get captured, have his demon extracted, die as a result and then everyone moves on like nothing happened.
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Old 2007-12-24, 00:23   Link #198
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Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
-Lets see now: will Naruto be stronger than the Hokage? Nope, not in a million years (no wait that's too soon so make that a billion). With Kishimoto's massive tendency to downplay Naruto in every single way imaginable the chances of Naruto becoming stronger than the Hokage are about the same as me being attractive to beautiful single women. What will most likely happen is that Naruto will get captured, have his demon extracted, die as a result and then everyone moves on like nothing happened.
lol. funny post.

in regards to the whole cheating thing; bloodline vs kyuubi. think of it like this if two twins are born, one boy, one girl. the boy has a sex change and the girl grows up beautiful. they both end up married with great looking husbands. does it really matter how they got there?
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Old 2007-12-24, 00:23   Link #199
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Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto View Post
*I'll go about responding to this in sequential order if you don't mind. This is the last responce I will make in regards to this issue. Take the last word if you want after.*

-Points 1-2. Yes I am sure there are thousands upon thousands of ninja who are practitioners of Tensei no jutsu that all the villagers are flourishing with them. There are so many that they are willing to sacrifice their lives for someone they never got a chance to know properly at the drop of a hat. You seem to be under the impression that we will always be granted with some new throw-away character that can use the Tensi no jutsu. I am sorry to say but that card has already been played once in the story and that was more than enough. Doing it more than once will make Naruto DBZ's retarded little brother. "Oh my best friend is dead. *Sigh* may as well gather up the balls and make that revival wish again". So either you want Naruto to keep his life with the Kyuubi or you want him to die a slow and painful death and then laugh at his misfortune saying "That's what you get for being what you are". And before you go and say to me or yourself "But if he's revived then its all well and good" let me remind you that it is not. If that were to happen then he's better off staying dead since the power he had worked so hard to achieve will be gone and his enemies certainly will not wait for him to get stronger again. They'll kill him the moment he revives.

-Point 3. Naruto and the Kyuubi make up one particular entity. They are 2 parts that make a whole. That makes sense to me why not you?

-Point 4. I thought we were arguing points and facts rather rather than theories but whatever you say. In any case that dialogue seems contradictory to me if he used both "our" and "my" in the same scene. Then again the Kyuubi's mind is prideful so I suppose it believes it still has ownership over the power that was transfered to Naruto.

-Point 5. If that is the case then why does that seal even exist if it doesn't block the chakra away fully? The Kyuubi is an intelligent mind I'm sure he could figure out that he can force his influence through and strike at any given moment. Naruto could be taking a stroll to the marketplace and then BOOM Kyuubi gets out. But that hasn't happened yet now has it? Now the question stands as to why?

-Point 6. Soul, life it's really something that solidifies the significance between Naruto and the Kyuubi. The entity that they form will die should the Kyuubi ever get extracted and vice versa. Orochimaru stated long ago back in the Forest of Death "For the last 12 years they've been merging", but you already knew this right? This shoul automatically tell you that the 2 share this existance.

*Anyways this is it for me. You've been a good sport and I'll give you rep points for that.*

-BTW Sabaku Kyu I don't know if you remember but Chiyo stated that all jinchuuriki that have their bijuu removed die. After all she was the one that extracted the Shukaku from 2 different hosts prior to sealing it in Gaara and they both died. I wouldn`t doubt it if all the other methods that involve this process end up fatal.
tsunade might give up her life for naruto....because she couldnt save her two most loved, considering naruto has both thier traits...and i think at her lvl right now she can use the same technique as chiyo
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Old 2007-12-24, 00:36   Link #200
Naotaka
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
In a way, I agree with Mistacloudstrife's opinion on this. The fact that Gaara is alive after having the Shukaku extracted proves that the bijuu isn't essential to the jinchuuriki's life, or else Gaara couldn't have been revived. Comparing the bijuu to an organ like the heart doesn't really apply here because there's no way to go on living without a heart. Even if you could be revived after losing your heart, you would still need to be revived with a new heart (or at least something that performs the function of a heart). We know that's not true with the bijuu.

I don't know if it's the case that there's absolutely no way a bijuu can be removed without killing the jinchuuriki or if that Akatsuki's method of removing the beasts is fatal. Could be that the situation is like a tumor. Some tumors can't be removed because they are in a place in the body were removing it would prove fatal. However, this isn't because the tumor is crucial to the body's survival, in fact, it is the opposite. So I don't think the jinchuuriki dependence on the bijuu is really proven.
Except that we know Chiyo's technique was so powerful that it could of gave life to a puppet (chapter 274 page 17). There for because that technique was so special it's safe to say it defies the logic of the now "living being", needing all their appropriate organs, since a puppet would have none but could live. Hence maybe a bijuu is actually needed, like an organ, but this life giving technique is so amazing it counters the need for it.
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