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View Poll Results: Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 12 Rating
Perfect 10 28 27.72%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 29 28.71%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 26 25.74%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 8.91%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.97%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 1.98%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.99%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 3 2.97%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-12-28, 17:10   Link #161
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquifina View Post
Well, I should point out that military organizations tend to be downright obsessive about their routines and procedures, precisely to avoid complacency. I've heard that the preparations for a US convoy in a hot part of Iraq involve hours of briefings and thorough checks of equipment. Real screw ups still happen, even in the best units, but well-disciplined troops really do things like clean their weapons religiously, even when they're exhausted and worn out. And when things are going easy, they keep up their standards; why do you think peacetime garrison forces are sometimes so much more obsessed with issues of ceremony and dress? Because it helps maintain the necessary edge away from the frontline. That is, after all, the meaning of discipline. That's the product of effective leadership and military culture, which the meisters just don't seem to have.
You do realize that, as far as we know, CB is just a private group whose front-line team is comprised of mostly teenagers and those in their early 20s? How can you compare that to what a real nation could do with their military force? Even Sergei and Graham have benefited from being with the HRL and Union's military, respectively.
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Old 2007-12-28, 17:32   Link #162
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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
You do realize that, as far as we know, CB is just a private group whose front-line team is comprised of mostly teenagers and those in their early 20s? How can you compare that to what a real nation could do with their military force? Even Sergei and Graham have benefited from being with the HRL and Union's military, respectively.
The issue I was addressing wasn't what we should expect out of CB (although I should point out that a USMC fire team can be exposed of young men in their late teens, and Lockon's old enough to be a platoon commander), but respective pilots' operational competence. Saying that CB's crew are a bunch of raw kids doesn't conflict with my point that Graham is as good a pilot as they are. And besides, isn't Veda supposed to pick the best pilots for its four precious Gundams?
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Old 2007-12-28, 17:44   Link #163
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The problem is that we don't know exactly what Veda's requirements for the pilots is. Best on what specifics? We don't have that answer. Hell it looks as though even the pilots themselves don't know exactly why they were chosen. And I get the feeling that there's something about the Gundams that requires something special with the pilots. Something other than normal soldier material which is why the pilots aren't the best out there. But they still seem to be pretty good pilots. I'm looking forward to all the pilots going head on with pilots like Graham and seeing how they fair when the fight isn't interupted.
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Old 2007-12-28, 18:12   Link #164
monster
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Originally Posted by Aquifina View Post
The issue I was addressing wasn't what we should expect out of CB (although I should point out that a USMC fire team can be exposed of young men in their late teens, and Lockon's old enough to be a platoon commander), but respective pilots' operational competence. Saying that CB's crew are a bunch of raw kids doesn't conflict with my point that Graham is as good a pilot as they are. And besides, isn't Veda supposed to pick the best pilots for its four precious Gundams?
Which was my point, that a nation would be able to drill that level of competence better in a formal military training than a private group could. With CB, nothing much seems to be expected of them outside of their mission profiles (which shows heavy reliance on technology to accomplish). And on that aspect, the pilots have been good enough with what they have.
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Old 2007-12-28, 18:52   Link #165
winter45
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Im not sure if anyone noticed but Lockon had the advantage at the beginning. He had range to snipe Graham, missed 3 to 4 times as well. Its not like Graham just jumped out of nowhere, and pounced on lockon. If you watch the episode again Graham had to intercept Dynames within Lockon sniping range while still being under fire at far distance.

Yeah Lockon missed the first time, he gave the I was being half @$$ed response, and said in the lines I wont miss again, well we all know what happened the second third and fourth shot.

Last edited by winter45; 2007-12-28 at 20:03. Reason: wrong name inputed now corrected
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Old 2007-12-28, 19:35   Link #166
wingdarkness
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Originally Posted by winter45
Im not sure if anyone noticed but Lockon had the advantage at the beginning. He had range to snipe Graham, missed 3 to 4 times as well. Its not like Graham just jumped out of nowhere, and pounced on lockon. If you watch the episode again Graham had to intercept Dynames within Lockon sniping range while still being under fire at far distance.

Yeah Graham missed the first time, he gave the I was being half @$$ed response, and said in the lines I wont miss again, well we all know what happened the second third and fourth shot.
Lockon's specialty is range and Graham bested that, not once, but 3, 4, times even to Lockon's pure bewilderment...Lockon actually gets what I guess we can call serious after the first shot was dodged (He verbally validates this notion), so after he gets his head kicked in I guess he goes from serious to seriousER huh? Then both of his close range shots are thoroughly blocked (His eye almost falls outta his socket from seeing that), then he requests Haro to put all power to weapons as I guess he gets seriouserER...See why I don't buy the whole "He was all laidback like" -BS?? Unless he has a hundred levels of serious he WAS SERIOUS after the first shot was dodged and as you said we saw what happened after that...

The 2-week break makes me wanna go Graham on somebody's a$$, but in the interim I was thinking about how I'd rank the named pilots to this point on fighter skills...

Hallelujah (To this point his killer instinct lets the Gundam use it's full potential)
Graham (Not only does he take each fight seriously, he fights with an aggressive enthusiasm unmatched by any pilot so far)
Ali (have to see a bit more before he can go over Graham)
Tieria (His Gundam kinda dictates his success level)
Sergei (Oldtype goodness)
Soma (Better when Hallelujah is Allelujah)
Setsuna (Once he gets over his past his potential will explode)
Allelujah (Gets just enuff done until his real self is needed)
Lockon (Basically and only because he's range, wished his battle with Graham could have shown more melee)
The AEU "Ace"(He's still clearly beyond grunt status despite his douchebagness)


Feel free to whatever...
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Old 2007-12-28, 19:46   Link #167
Kinku
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i kinda agree with ur skill listing beside sergei and soma i think soma better than sergei... Tieria like u said just as good cause of his gundam.... i would rank him lower .. probably above setsuna

Graham is the most skilled stable pilot in gundam 00 imo but just image him in a gundam... unstopable i probably see him using Allelujah gundam
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Old 2007-12-28, 19:57   Link #168
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It would be interesting to know how much experience the various pilots have.

For example, I wouldn't be surprised if Setsuna and Tieria and possibly Lockon have *only* piloted Gundams, and not normal MS. We've seen Al have a flashback to a Tieren, so it seems quite likely that has piloted such things in the past. It's possible that Lockon has experience with normal MS but maybe he was scouted for his sniping skills which is why he sometimes leaves the piloting to Haro?

I wonder how good CB's Gundam pilot simulators are. After all, it's not like they'd have an extensive direct experience - though they could probably get some data via illegal methods (ie by hacking, or by scouting relevant researchers).

As a final note, I seem to remember reading a background note saying that Setsuna was chosen to be a Gundam pilot when he was 14 - ie he's had 2 years to learn to pilot a MS. Can anyone confirm?
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Old 2007-12-28, 20:28   Link #169
winter45
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Yo WD i think you may have misread my latest post im not sure if you are directing at me but ill elaberote a bit more if there is a misunderstanding here.


I've been promoting Graham all the way. I was saying Lockon had the advantage but failed 4 times, he had a superior suit and still had dfficulties. Graham cornerd Lockon kinda speak till the end just about.

Pls read this

Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Well this fight showed that Graham had the upper hand most of the fight. From the surprise dodge to the kick across dynames face as well as making dynames use his sword and lastly make lockon use his last choice by diverting GN particles to his weapons (I presuming diverting power to his guns would result in more powerfull shot(s) to breakthru the flags defensive equipment/shield/armor to bring it down) It just showed how skilled Graham is in an infirior suit next to god like suit of a gundam.
and add

Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Im not sure if anyone noticed but Lockon had the advantage at the beginning. He had range to snipe Graham, missed 3 to 4 times as well. Its not like Graham just jumped out of nowhere, and pounced on lockon. If you watch the episode again Graham had to intercept Dynames within Lockon sniping range while still being under fire at far distance.

Yeah Lockon missed the first time, he gave the I was being half @$$ed response, and said in the lines I wont miss again, well we all know what happened the second third and fourth shot.
When I said Lockon had advanatage i meant he had little to non excuse y he couldnt pick off Graham given graham is playing in lockon court. When i said we all know what happened 3rd and 4th shots i was only promoting Graham skill even more that now he is dodging and/or blocking at POINT BLANK RANGE from a EXTREMELY skilled Marksman with almost godlike accuracy.



WD i hope this clears this misunderstanding.

Last edited by winter45; 2007-12-28 at 20:30. Reason: added extra paragraph
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Old 2007-12-28, 20:32   Link #170
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^There was no misunderstanding I was agreeing and enhancing...
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Old 2007-12-28, 20:44   Link #171
winter45
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AH!!! no probs then.. then im the one whos misunderstanding...
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Old 2007-12-28, 22:25   Link #172
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@ kari-no-sugata

For all we know, Haro was given to Lockon because he's the sanest Meister and the CB wouldn't entrust that AI to Setsuna, Allelujah and Tieria because of certain psychological issues and that they would probably use Haro for their own twisted gains.

Also, CB already has a past (using the manga as reference point) and the fact that Lockon et al are already part of the 3rd generation of Gundam Meisters. That clearly could indicate that CB has already been part of the "war" BEFORE the events of Gundam 00. Whereas it doesn't necessarily mean that they have now very extensive/ vastly superior technology in the intelligence gathering sense or pilot choosing sense that borders on magical proportions, they are still superior in some way to the current faction technology, enough to warrant 4 Meisters with considerable experience in fighting in a Gundam, and which sadly at this point only prove to be effective against grunts.

@ winter45 and wingdarkness

Graham has effectively fought against Setsuna and Lockon, using their mission objectives as an excuse. All of his fights involving a Gundam always were set back with Setsuna and Lockon (for this particular episode) on a mission that does not involve Graham in a big way (i.e., CB going after Union hide). Setsuna and Lockon were forced to deal with Graham because, yes, in a way he did suddenly appear out of nowhere (with reference on their current mission objectives) and so were made to deal with Graham whether they liked it or not. Of course, Graham's battle tactics are superior than any pilot I have seen so far (Soma and Sergei's are still under wraps [not yet full potential], and Ali could probably give Graham a run for his money if his skills were also exploited a little more), but they were shown in a way that exhibited more Gundam dependent tendencies of the pilots rather than their real skills in a battle. In this respect, Ali was more successful: he provoked Setsuna and the Exia was able to cut off his MS weapon, and then he was forced to retreat or withdraw after it.

Also, Graham deciding to crash in on Exia and Dynames could also get him killed. What if the CB direct the Gundams to meet anyone catching up to them or deciding to go after them to kill pilots who wish to catch themselves a Gundam? Graham always manages to fight Gundams rashly, without any respect to what the outcome of that encounter would bring. I could understand why he wanted to fight with the Exia, but clearly this wasn't the case for the Dynames. For the Exia's case, he was clearly doing some research for the Union. In the Dynames' case, it could be seen as part of the Union's Gundam capturing objective for some reason or other, but it was done rather bleh. I mean, the Union was probably already briefed about why the CB was in Azadistan; it was clearly for protecting Azadistan and was done with the intent of not even hampering the Union with their defensive efforts in protecting a temporary ally from a coup d' etat. Graham's motives for going after the Dynames and leaving his 2 Flag buddies at the mercy of Ali Al Sarshes (as we already know what he could do) could either get them killed, or in Graham's case, could also get him killed, as well, and so we will lose an CHAR in the process.

I'm all praises for Graham in his battle with Lockon, because he was awesome. I'm just rather disappointed that Graham's skills only show up when Setsuna and Lockon were clearly just doing their jobs and Graham suddenly decides to invade their privacy. Ali had done a lot more than what Graham could have done; he clearly saw through Exia's moves and actually threw Setsuna to his limit, and not because it wasn't part of his job. Or rather, he also suffers the same fate as Graham, except Ali was able to squeeze more from his battle encounter with the Exia other than getting Setsuna surprised that he dodged his pea shooter. I'm looking forward to the day that Graham would truly be the best grunt pilot I have seen in Gundam 00 so far, and where his fights could actually draw out on the battle instincts of the Meisters. At least Ali, Soma and Sergei have shown military tactics behind their actions in some way or other.
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Old 2007-12-28, 22:54   Link #173
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@Sniper - Graham is clearly an irritant at this point, but the scope of Gundam 00's plot has yet to deeply include him...I believe it will at some point, but make no mistake, Graham Acre isn't in this to push anyones potential per se...He's clearly in it to examine, challenge, and ultimately capture a Gundam to turn the technological balance of this war...Unlike any other pilot his motivations lie in honor and idealistic valor...He wants to be the one to help turn history away from the will of the Gundams' agenda...He will not be denied a starring role as history is written and if it means randomly engaging the Gundams then sobeit...He will have his name heard and eventually this irritant will spawn into something you won't be able to overlook much longer...
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Old 2007-12-28, 23:02   Link #174
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I believe that's what Graham would turn out into. I just hope it's before the season ends. Also, I hope Mizushima won't botch up this CHAR in the making. I'll probably go to the ends of the world if Graham asked me to, that's how much I admire him already...
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Old 2007-12-28, 23:20   Link #175
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I appreciate Graham's character for various reasons, but for a soldier, he seems to have a better grasp of the world around him. So far, his style is effective, but how long will he remain as such.

On another subject, how is Marina Queen? she is terrible, She doesn't have a clue at all.
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Old 2007-12-28, 23:26   Link #176
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Was Marina even willing to become Queen? Well, she told Rasa that she has accepted becoming a Queen, but I am not sure if she really wanted to become Queen in the first place.
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Old 2007-12-29, 00:44   Link #177
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On another subject, how is Marina Queen? she is terrible, She doesn't have a clue at all.
How would you quell a coup d'etat and dissolve ethnic conflicts in a country that's divided along ethnic and religious lines? How would you do this if you're just a figurehead whose words only reach half of the population (if that) because the others are not from your tribe/religious sect?

She actually is pretty good considering her position. She set out to acquire solar power to revitalize her country's economy, and she achieved that. Is it her fault her country men went crazy and started a civil war?
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Old 2007-12-29, 00:59   Link #178
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Speaking of the civil war, is Ali a Kurdistan? Episode 12 shows that Kurdistan are looked down by the Azadistan people based on what the old man said to Setsuna. So maybe Ali plans to start to civil war as revenge?
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Old 2007-12-29, 01:27   Link #179
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Speaking of the civil war, is Ali a Kurdistan? Episode 12 shows that Kurdistan are looked down by the Azadistan people based on what the old man said to Setsuna. So maybe Ali plans to start to civil war as revenge?
Krugis not Kurd

However, I am assuming that the situation in the anime is supposed to depict real world tension between the Kurds who want their own land and the Turks.
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Old 2007-12-29, 02:55   Link #180
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The anime uses "hime" when referring to Marina, doesn't that mean "princess" and not "queen" or is it interchangeable?
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