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View Poll Results: Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 12 Rating
Perfect 10 28 27.72%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 29 28.71%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 26 25.74%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 8.91%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.97%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 1.98%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.99%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 3 2.97%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-01-01, 22:56   Link #221
Eidolon Sniper
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It's not necessarily saying outright that the Reformists are right; Rasa could provide them as to why change is all the more better for them in this situation, but since he was kidnapped, it has become an ZOMG REFORMISTS HIJACK LOL to the people who see the UN aid as an "invasion" of their holy land. The episode provided us also with a lot of people pushing for the outright removal of foreign aid, and Ali has succeeded into tapping into their anti-foreign feelings so well that the Conservatives are now gaining the upper hand. It doesn't matter whether one is neutral or not in this case, but Ali has fanned the uprising and has added more fuel into the fire because he removed the leash that has been preventing the Conservatives from actively going against Marina's wishes. It has been shown that there have been a lot of people GOING against the idea of UN foreign aid, so the Conservatives have already had a lot of allies from the start when hell broke loose.

Also, I don't think any more fervent convincing needs to be made with regards to the people in the middle; they probably wouldn't go against change, or even fervently agree to an all Azadistani government or something, they're neutral, or in this case, they actually don't care at all in the more extreme sense. They could swing both ways if they wanted to, and we end up with a group of people who would probably either be Reformist or Conservative by feeling and action. Also, I don't think they would welcome such an idea of having to be forced to choose between 2 different ideologies, it would make either of their causes a lost cause if they should push it. In Marina's case, it's now either join the Conservatives or you'll be branded a traitor, and I am betting that people would most likely jump on the Conservative bandwagon for now, or risk getting caught in their violent uprising against such free thinkers. It's not easy to choose an ideology when critical situations like these arise; but here we have Rasa, and other sane leaders (I hope) who would still stick to what they believe in even when everyone and everything is against them.
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Old 2008-01-03, 10:05   Link #222
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Actually, the people in the middle do need the most convincing, considering that the Extremist could perusade them by there actions alone. They don't have to say anything just do what they are doing now, and that's being extreme. People in the middle tend to go with whatever everyone else is. It's not that hard of a concept to grasp.
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Old 2008-01-03, 21:58   Link #223
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But the fact remains that they're in the middle of a Conservative Reformist war. You just can't persuade neutral people very easily in that kind of violent, tense-filled situation. If they do manage to persuade them, let's say, they're for the Reformists, how would the Conservatives in their neighborhoods react? In this desperate situation, especially when Rasa was kidnapped, a lynch mob isn't that hard to imagine to happen.
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Old 2008-01-04, 01:22   Link #224
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A few acts of terrorism aren't a civil war.

As for your question - it depends on the neighbourhood. I'm sure that in some, not giving at least lip service to the Conservative ideals is dangerous. But that's not the case everywhere in the country.
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Old 2008-01-04, 03:12   Link #225
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Well, a few acts of terrorism COULD lead to civil war if left unchecked. People are scared, people would want to get out of that kind of situation...hell, anybody could initiate a civil war given the right conditions, and yes, a civil war could also erupt that way. It's wrong to disregard such "simple acts of terrorism" in this sense. In Azadistan's case, saying that somewhere, people are peaceful amongst themselves could be an assumption at best. Heck, the military Conservatives are taking action drastically, and since t hey don't care what happens (if they're extremist Conservatives that is) they would be forced to involve innocent people in the crossfire.

Some would probably not want to (as in the case of some Azadistani military that were deployed to protect the solar power plant), but we all knew what happened to it. It would seem that there are more Conservatives in the military (that was why the military arm of Azadistani was overwhelmed and had to request for Union aid) and so invited Celestial Being into the conflict as well to take care of the rabid Conservatives. With the feelings of anti-foreign invasion very high, it's not that hard to imagine that people would get caught up with the moment, especially more so the people who really believed in Rasa. I don't think Ali went JUST AS PLANNED as easily like that; he knew how to anger the people to the favor of those opposed to foreign aid and lead Azadistan to a downward spiral easier than he could have hoped to do. Ali seems so sure of himself that the acts of terrorism that he did would really ignite a full scale war.
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Old 2008-01-04, 05:13   Link #226
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We know that Azadistan had been suffering terrorist attacks for some time now. It was definately on a downwards spiral, and at the point where one big thing like Rasa's kidnap would totally ignite the situation. CB was always going to be something that was going to come once things got really bad. The Union was not something that was planned for since even Marina wasn't aware that they'd been secretly contacted. The Reformist did all they couold to keep the Conformist from finding that out since Marina would probably be against it since it would only make the situation worse as it did. The only thing that has kept it going totally out of control was the fact that the Union is taking control of the situation militarily
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Old 2008-01-04, 07:34   Link #227
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Was it? I thought Marina and the advisers she were with were talking about the Union aid...
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Old 2008-01-04, 07:52   Link #228
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
Was it? I thought Marina and the advisers she were with were talking about the Union aid...
Marina obtained two sources of help in recent episodes; UN aid in setting up receptors for space elevator energy, and military help from the Union. Unfortunately, neither aid was without cost.

The UN was only helping because of the as yet unknown motive of Celestial Being.
The Union was only helping because they want to catch a Gundam.

Ironically, had Graham not attacked Lockon, and instead chased after Ali with his other two squad members, Ali might have been captured, interrogated, and the civil war stopped. The ironic thing is, Graham can't actually allow Marina's nation to be overthrown on his watch either, as that would have political consequences.

Had Graham only focused on saving Marina's nation, many people's lives would have been spared and the war cut short. Had Graham only focused on capturing Lockon, having both his Wingmen by his side, he could have obtained a Gundam. But by trying to do BOTH, Graham failed to succeed in either.
(Not his fault though; He was given TWO primary objectives. That never works well. The Union should have told him which objective is more important, instead of telling him to do both in the same time.)


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Old 2008-01-04, 08:11   Link #229
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So did Marina actively pursue Union aid? I was under the impression that she did in some way...
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Old 2008-01-04, 08:16   Link #230
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So did Marina actively pursue Union aid? I was under the impression that she did in some way...
She has no direct power/authority to do so AFAIK - the Reformists in the Parliament requested aid from the Union and she only found out after the fact (and immediately thought it was a bad idea since it would inflame the situation).
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Old 2008-01-04, 08:20   Link #231
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Well, she sort of "indirectly" asked for aid...there's no way in hell Conservatives would probably consider her explanations for having Union military encroaching upon their territory...
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Old 2008-01-04, 10:52   Link #232
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Well, she sort of "indirectly" asked for aid...there's no way in hell Conservatives would probably consider her explanations for having Union military encroaching upon their territory...
She thought having Union military brought in would make things worse. She was opposed to it. I don't see how she could have "indirectly" asked for help from them. She's yet to meet any Union representative AFAIK.
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Old 2008-01-04, 11:01   Link #233
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Marina obtained two sources of help in recent episodes; UN aid in setting up receptors for space elevator energy, and military help from the Union. Unfortunately, neither aid was without cost.

The UN was only helping because of the as yet unknown motive of Celestial Being.
The Union was only helping because they want to catch a Gundam.

Ironically, had Graham not attacked Lockon, and instead chased after Ali with his other two squad members, Ali might have been captured, interrogated, and the civil war stopped. The ironic thing is, Graham can't actually allow Marina's nation to be overthrown on his watch either, as that would have political consequences.

Had Graham only focused on saving Marina's nation, many people's lives would have been spared and the war cut short. Had Graham only focused on capturing Lockon, having both his Wingmen by his side, he could have obtained a Gundam. But by trying to do BOTH, Graham failed to succeed in either.
(Not his fault though; He was given TWO primary objectives. That never works well. The Union should have told him which objective is more important, instead of telling him to do both in the same time.)


In politics, nothing is ever free. And the less you have to trade, the more you have to pay.
You make a number of good points, but I might point a few counter-points, if you will.

1)Ali only fired once Lockon had already fired, and the GN particle effect was already in effect at that point. (Graham's electronics start fizzing out before Lockon fires, and Lockon only stops distributing GN particles at the end of their match in order to put them into his weapons.) Regardless of whether Graham went or not, there would have at least been some jamming for Ali to flee in his Custom suit. Whether fighting Lockon made it worse or he would have caught Ali is arguable (as is whether Lockon wouldn't have been able to snipe Graham's wingmates before a one-on-one with Graham). My point? Dedicating one way or another wouldn't have been a guarantee.

Don't quite see how Graham could have prevented the Kurdish massacre, though. He went straight back to the capital as soon as he learned of the coup attempt in order to secure it, which was the Union's stated agreement. He was still patrolling the skies while Setsuna came to the Kurdish fight.

2.) I think it may have been applied that Graham's super-primary objective was to take the Gundam (and you have to admit, it was right there), but that he felt obligated to protect the capital instead. My sub basically translates his standoff with Lockon into "I was finally able to find a gundam. But regrettably, I am still a human being" and then he flies off and recalls his wingmen.

If that's accurate, it could imply that he did have orders to primarily get the Gundam, but his moral compass wouldn't (1) let the person who started the attack escape unpursued, and (2) let him violate the treaty agreement.



(Just so you know, I agree with what you were largely saying, but meh, I'm bored.)
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Old 2008-01-04, 11:20   Link #234
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I just wanted to point out that Graham would have FAR more capacity to capture Ali (and thus find out the truth about the civil war, perhaps even freeing the kidnapped leader) if he had WORKED with Lockon. If his entire squad followed Ali, so would Lockon. And the combined forces of all three Union suits + a Gundam would make it VERY hard for Ali to get away. (CB machines don't seem to have a problem tracking non-Gundams.)

After all, Sergei was willing to accept Allelujah's help when he needed it, why can't Graham? Lockon was on his side. No matter how I look at it, if Marina was to see what was happening she would have been angry. The one time a Gundam wanted to help her, the Unions drove it away.
And yes, I know Graham is only following orders.

Now you see why the Conservatives are so suspicious of outside-help? It pains me to see Religious Extremists being vindicated.
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Old 2008-01-04, 12:31   Link #235
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Of course, there are a few minor problems with that. A few thoughts:

Had Graham gone after Ali, Lockon would still have been pumping out GN particles, making the Flag radars useless. And Lockon had other places to be, extremists to shoot: there's no real reason for him to have gone after Ali himself when CB already knew of the coup attempt that was going around the country.

There's also the difference between Graham and Sergei's situation: whereas Graham was already on another mission to save the civilians while Allelujah came out of the blue to save the civilians (and Allelujah was also the one to break radio silence stating his intentions), Graham had none of that. Graham's mission, as you mentioned eariler, was to capture the Gundam. A gundam which had just opened fire on troops of the country (and Graham didn't know which side was which) and made no attempt to communicate. If Lockon had made communication like Allelujah, perhaps Graham would have been convinced. But Lockon has always been more understanding on the points of secrecy than Setsuna or Allelujah, and wouldn't have done that.

I might also point out that Graham and the Union were fighting the Gundams that were tearing the Conservatives apart.
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Old 2008-01-05, 10:02   Link #236
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All i can say compared to last week's failed episode this one was alot better than last one.
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Old 2008-01-08, 03:28   Link #237
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Gundam 00 Episode 12 Summary & Thoughts brings me almost up to date again. The thing I noticed about this episode is that everyones dream or ambition ultimately seems to either die or take a huge blow in this episode. I think the only character who can be said to have gained something is Ali, but we'll have to wait and see. For all I know Marina could be back in power by the next episode if the Celestial Beings will it.
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Old 2008-01-08, 08:00   Link #238
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But wouldn't that put Azadistan into deeper trouble?
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Old 2008-06-23, 10:16   Link #239
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Hello everyone, please read my reply cuz it's very important.

In Episode 12 , Massoud Rachmadi mentioned to be a "rasul" in translation....!

(rasul = prophet"messenger from The God")



Well, that's not true because NO PROPHETS AFTER (Muhammad),also,the original japanese movie mentioned his full name as "Rasa Massoud Rachmadi" ,not "rasul" as a title.



To prove it,here is the original text from "Wikipedia" about him:



"Massoud Rachmadi (マスード・ラフマディー)

Voiced by: Shinya Fukumatsu

An Imam in Azadistan with strong influence in the conservative factions of the Azadistani Parliament. Known as "Rasa" among the conservative factions, when Marina decided to accept the role of princess, he volunteered to become her opposition in order to contain the conservatives from getting radical and violent. His sudden abduction by Ali's forces had touched off a coup d'état with radical elements of the Azadistani army leading it against Marina and the rest of her reformist-leading government. He was later tracked down and rescued by Setsuna, Lockon and Hong Long, and returned to make a joint statement with Marina, which temporary quelled the rebellion."



please understand me...Thanks
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