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Old 2008-01-06, 13:18   Link #41
Sylf
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When we started chapters for mp4, I initially provided the chapter files to the encoders... then I got lazy, but the encoders kept the practice. *phew*

The biggest peeve I have about mp4 and chapters is that I haven't seen it being supported by anything other than haali's splitter. With mkv, at least (god forsaken) vlc recognizes its chapters. (We won't talk about why I still stick with mp4.)
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Old 2008-01-06, 13:34   Link #42
False Dawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScR3WiEuS View Post
*assembles the editor army*

Okay, so we got you, me and... who else?
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Old 2008-01-06, 14:28   Link #43
Con
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First, thank you Nicholi for very educational answer.

martino, yeah I assumed that in some cases it's just laziness.
And I know this really depends who the encoder is.
But maybe now some encoders sees this and starts to use them.
Oh and I watched Ayu's Monster Princess, so I know you use them in mkv.
Was about to download some reborn eps to see if you used them in mp4 as well.
No need for that anymore.
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Old 2008-01-06, 19:47   Link #44
Nicholi
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Well luckily I've never succumbed to martino's evul laziness yet :P. But I do know what he means by the extra few minutes to create chapters. If you want to make them exactly keyframe spot on at least.

But in my extreme laziness I also wrote a batch script to generate the chapters for me! No more wasted time! This one might actually prove useful to others if I publicly released it too...and is almost foolproof in using (I need to think of how to properly handle one infinite loop). Would you use it if I gave it to ya martino? You just specify the chapter names and the general location you assume a keyframe to be which is where you want the chapter.
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Old 2008-01-07, 05:54   Link #45
martino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholi View Post
Would you use it if I gave it to ya martino? You just specify the chapter names and the general location you assume a keyframe to be which is where you want the chapter.
Not exactly sure whether I would or not, but I'm sure it might prove useful for some other individual(s) as you said yourself. Given the fact that I myself usually create the chapters just as I run the video through YATTA and hit each section as I go along...
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Old 2008-01-07, 06:49   Link #46
fuzzles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sempai View Post
MKV has always been a crap shoot for me. I prefer the safety of hard coded subtitles. But Sony just gave us a reason to use Xvid or divx. The PS3 now has Divx compatibility. Which oddly enough means xvid compatibility. So I now have the joy of watching my anime on my 42" plasma screen in 1080p. So I went out an bought a 4 gig thumbrive just so I could transfer shows. It is so great. Sitting on my couch and enjoying my large screen tv with surround sound. Everything plays smoothly. The only problem some fansubbers insist on MKV. So I will have to start transcoding those. Boooooo

So for all those fansubbers out there. Its a big reason to use Divx. I know hardsubs may be more difficult. But you know for my anime events I run I could have all my anime transcoded and be gauranteed to work. And it will only cost me $400 per room I use. Wooooooo Hoooo.
Psh that's being a nub right there, I just hook up my PC Or laptop to my 42 incher and don't have to worry about transfering to a thumbdrive or anything I can even use my desktop through the freaking giant screen much better :P
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Old 2008-01-07, 14:46   Link #47
Zero1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholi View Post
Hard to say, maybe they do think they will somehow get extra treats in encoder heaven by only using the features outlined in the standard. The thing is, though chapter functionality was not explicitly written into the MP4 standard, the way Nero/MP4Box has implemented it does not make the files non-standard in any way. It is not a "hack" but rather an "intuitive way" of storing chapters within the rules/confines of the MP4 standard. Of course the splitter/parser has to know how the chapters are stored in this method for the player to be able to use them at all (because it is a feature which is not part of the standard). Otherwise the data is simply ignored and everything proceeds as usual. Thus it is a non-standard feature, but still makes completely compliant MP4 files.

The MP4 container luckily is outlined quite well in this manner so non-standard data can be added to files (in specific ways dictated by the standard ). So crazy ideas like Vorbis in MP4 can exist and still be a perfectly valid MP4 file. But again then, it means that the software needs to add extra support (above the MP4 standard) for these extra features to actually be accessible. So while the standard is perfect for the industry and what they will do with it (using the codecs/features explicitly outlined in the standard because they are lazy and require some basic level of conformity or they cry) it also specifically makes room for enterprising companies/individuals to add their own features without causing the files to break in other software/hardware. If any hosers tell you they aren't adding chapters because they don't want to break the "zomg industry standard" you can call shenanigans on them. They essentially have no idea wtf they are talking about. Boo to them then, just another reason MKV is awesome.

Though it probably is more likely they don't know they can do it, just as with the large number of MKVs without chapters (why ;-; ). Or they are too evul and lazy to learn how easy it is.
More or less correct, to the point it saved me longposting
Anyway, for reference, there is a standard, defined way of doing chapters. That is with BIFS, and comes under MPEG-4 systems with menus and the like, though obviously few if any use this method and nearly all stick to Nero's way. One exception may be DVD > MP4 conversion programs that would basically encode all the audio to AAC, all the video to H.264 and transpose the menus. In which case if menu support is there, it would pretty much have to "do it right" and write the chapters in systems rather than using user data method (otherwise I can't see a way of DVD like click to play chapter working since the chapter data is not stored in the obvious place). However I do not know if there are any such commercial converters yet. You can certainly do it with opensource/notepad/effort, but I was thinking along the lines of "press butan receiev DVD in MP4".

Here is an example script which does MP4 chapters right. It's actually an example of an MP4 menu which is similar to what you would find on a DVD, but obviously chapter points are defined so you could skip to a certain chapter from the MP4 menu. Not not all menu scripts would be as big as this, most would likely be smaller and less complicated, however you could also make more complex ones. The chapter point definitions start around line 1960. You can set individual chapter points for multiple streams (eg you aren't limited to setting chapter points to just the main movie or audio, you could add them to trailers/extras or whatever) or perhaps multiple angles.
http://sourceforge.net/project/downl...1.zip&79552839

It may also depend on the level that the splitter is implemented to. For example Haali's splitter does not deal with menus or any advanced stuff in MP4, so I don't suppose it would support the standard chapters (I could be wrong). Osmo does, and I believe it supports chapters in user data too. It's a lousy player, but it's designed pretty much to demonstrate the MP4 feature set rather than compete with MPC, VLC or whatever you want to compare it with.

I believe that with MPEG-4 being open standard, Nero could actually apply to have it added to the official standard, but what with a similar feature already existing, I don't know if they would just tell Nero to GTFO. I believe (though I could be wrong because I don't really follow this stuff anymore) that Apple has made additions to the standard and has had them included in the official spec.

Actually that's not a bad point. Even if Apple's stuff is not in the spec, it has still been widely adapted (such as Apple specific meta data).

Finally not all uses of private streams are evil or badly supported. One such use that has stood the test of time would be AC3 in MPEG-2 systems (or basically AC3 in DVDs/VOB files). As you may or may not know, AC3, DTS and LPCM are stored as a private stream. Similarly, so are DVD subpictures/subtitles.

With player support, I haven't really checked chapter support on consoles, but it does work on the KiSS 1600. I can't see an easy way to test it on my Xbox360 because it doesn't seem to like my harddrives, it will not do the sync thing with Windows and I don't want to be burning discs. Oh yes, this thing is the Windows ME of consoles, and then there's the disc read errors, freezing, Xbox Live gayness/shit on the dashboard not loading. God damn.

Anyway, why the hell am I posting all this? The idea was for me to get away from encoding/fansubbing but I just keep getting sucked back in. Crazy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sempai
The PS3 now has Divx compatibility. Which oddly enough means xvid compatibility.
Holy shit DivX compatability and it can also play XviD. It's a conspiracy I tell you, a conspiracy! But does it have a film grain effect?
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Old 2008-01-07, 15:52   Link #48
ScR3WiEuS
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you know >.<; there's a chapter discussion in the thread under this one >.<;
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Old 2008-01-07, 20:26   Link #49
Nicholi
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Oh yes, I had completely forgotten about MP4 menues...because nothing supports it other then GPAC's player :P.

Which unfortunately brings up another point about MP4 menues (as well as vaporware MKV menues ) in Haali's splitter. The reason it is currently not supported, and may not be for quite some time, is because it will require extra support within each player. So as of quite a long time ago he stated he wasn't going to invest any time into it. Unless a bunch of DShow player devs start saying they want to add support for it, he probably won't code it. And god knows how that support will ever come to WMP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero1
With player support, I haven't really checked chapter support on consoles, but it does work on the KiSS 1600. I can't see an easy way to test it on my Xbox360 because it doesn't seem to like my harddrives, it will not do the sync thing with Windows and I don't want to be burning discs. Oh yes, this thing is the Windows ME of consoles, and then there's the disc read errors, freezing, Xbox Live gayness/shit on the dashboard not loading. God damn.
Should be simple enough to do. I got it to work with Mac OSX even :P, and Mac OSX emulating Windows. Though back when I had tried it MP4 support was a bit knew, I did notice that the certain sharing methods also affected what formats were seen by the Xbox360. Like using WMP's or Zune's software would not share MP4s, they would share MP3, MPG, WMV, pictures and other junk. Zune's software lists MP4 now, but donno about WMP. Otherwise if you have any version of Media Center installed it should work quite easily. Would be nice to know if Xbox360 or PS3 (or even PSP) support the Nero chapters.

/me lols at poor ScR3WiEuS
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Old 2008-01-07, 23:42   Link #50
Haruyasha
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I love mkv mainly because of the soft-subs.
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Old 2008-01-08, 11:10   Link #51
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haruyasha View Post
I love mkv mainly because of the soft-subs.
To the end user it shouldn't really matter how softsubs are delivered. For all you care it could be an AVI file with an external subtitle file. Those load perfectly fine without being embedded in MKV (they're easier to edit that way as well), especially on Windows where the auto-loading version of VSFilter does everything for you. How they are delivered is just a matter of aestetics (i.e. not seeing two files, but one), but yeah, there is the issue of fansubbers choosing the font they wish to present their subtitles with. So yeah, MKV isn't a requirement for softsub playback, but it does offer some nice features that keep your average user unsuspectedly ignorant and happy (if they bother to install a splitter anyway).
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Old 2008-01-08, 12:28   Link #52
DryFire
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Except the files could get separated, renamed etc... 1 file is far easier to distribute via irc and avi does not properly support h264.
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Old 2008-01-08, 23:14   Link #53
blinx01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sempai View Post
Lets see lots of responses. I don't know what would I be trolling for? Noob... oh yeah I have a htpc built specifically for hooking up to VGA outputs. I even have a network storage device so I don't have to transfer files to the dedicated HTPC. But htpc has a big flaw. I don't like having the keyboard and all that to use it. Not quite technical savy enough to get LIRC working. And too cheap to buy a $200 remote control.

So anyways in my entertainment center I have this hunk of plastic that I will not throw away because for some reason I like playing video games. And you know what? Now that hunk of plastic that was mainly for playing video games and sometimes running linux... oh yeah it also makes a really cool audio player. And btw it has a bluray DVD player that is not an add on option. And it does not support M$. OH yeah has anyone ever noticed the complete lack of anime related video games on the M$ box?

Now I have yet another reason to use it. It plays my videos. I have yet to get an mp4 working in there. And as far as I know the .h264s have not worked either. MKV for sure does not work. I don't care whether people up load anime to youtube. Anyone who watches it there needs a better way. And since I do not speak Japanese it does not bother me if the subtitles are on automatically. The only people that really get a benefit from not having hard coded sub are AMV people. Not one so I don't care about that either.

Oh yeah the noob thing... hmm am I a noob? Where were you in 2000? Thats when I first got a cable modem and started downloading anime. I have gone through more video types in my time. And some how the AVI has stayed around. Go figure. Waiting for .h264 to push divx and xvid out. But I can say the AVI is better than FLI which was the first video file I ever saw.
Firstly, fan sub groups couldn't give a flying f**k about if PS3 can play xvid or divx. To start with, PS3's support for those formats is hit and miss at best. Hopefully it gets improved in the future to the standard 360 has shown regarding playback.
Secondly, most people buy games consoles to play games on, not to use as a media hub. Also, Sony have basically forced Blu-Ray onto PS3 owners in order to push their own format, unlike MS who released the HD-DVD player as an add-on giving people the option if they wanted it or not. As for games, 360 beats PS3 for anime related games atm.

Finally, .h264 is the future. Groups that still insist on ignoring it and sticking to xvid/avi will simply be forced to follow suite in the future when people snub their releases in favour of soft-subbed MKV's.
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Old 2008-01-09, 01:25   Link #54
[darkfire]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinx01 View Post
Firstly, fan sub groups couldn't give a flying f**k about if PS3 can play xvid or divx. To start with, PS3's support for those formats is hit and miss at best. Hopefully it gets improved in the future to the standard 360 has shown regarding playback.
Secondly, most people buy games consoles to play games on, not to use as a media hub. Also, Sony have basically forced Blu-Ray onto PS3 owners in order to push their own format, unlike MS who released the HD-DVD player as an add-on giving people the option if they wanted it or not. As for games, 360 beats PS3 for anime related games atm.

Finally, .h264 is the future. Groups that still insist on ignoring it and sticking to xvid/avi will simply be forced to follow suite in the future when people snub their releases in favor of soft-subbed MKV's.
Whats all the xbox fanboyism going on in there. Your point is mute. You just said that those are mainly consoles not media hubs. So the ps3 has an advantage over the xbox as it can hold more data on a single disc.

As I said before, just install linux on the thing and be done with it. Linux + smplayer then you can play mkv with the fonts and chapters just fine. And you could fansub with it too with Aegisub.

H.264 is a clear winner. I belive h.264 encodes tend to be soft subs due to the time it takes to encode to that format. Re-encodes would just get annoying. And anybody encoding to h.264 anyway notices the quality and knows that hard subbing will take away from that quality.
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